85 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

No, it doesn't make it good.

But it doesn't make it something it isn't, either. It isn't plot armor.

[Sable Rhapsody]

David7204 wrote...

No, it doesn't make it good.

But it doesn't make it something it isn't, either. It isn't plot armor.

OK.  So what is plot armor if it isn't the inability to kill someone for plot-mandated reasons?

[Jadebaby]

it is plot armour. You're wrong this time David.

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

If I recall, literally all Shepard said was "It's over buddy, three-on-one," or something like that. Does that quality as 'stupid dialogue' on Shepard's part now?

Maybe not this line taken out of the context, but the dialogue as a whole for shure and that line does not make this better.

David7204 wrote...

What I'm dismissing is the BSN's behavior of whining about something in ME 3 and then praising other
games with the exact same problem or often a far worse version of said problem.

I adapt my judging standards to the game I am playing. The most important feature of Mass Effect is characters to me, so if I consider a character stupid that is valid criticism from my POV.

I still love Final Fantasy 10 although its characters are mostly even worse, in fact our main character here is one of the worst. That's because this game's main feature are the gameplay mechanics and some of the ideas behind the story (not the story as a whole) to me.

Modifié par Argolas, 17 novembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[Dr_Extrem]

its a plot armor - but that is something you can accept if the fight is good, entertaining and thrilling ...

sadly, the fight on thessia as well as the one at the cerberus base, lacks all if it.

[Reorte]

Back on Virmire it was done in a way that made it feel like I was beating Saren and he got away by the skin of his teeth. With Kai Leng I was beating the crap out of him then suddenly he won the fight.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

its a plot armor - but that is something you can accept if the fight is good, entertaining and thrilling ...

I personally disagree, but that's because plot armor boss fights are a pet peeve of mine--it's mostly a matter of taste.  If I'm not going to be able to do anything to change the outcome during the gameplay, why make it gameplay?  Why not just turn it into a cinematic?

I'd rather have something like Ser Cauthrien in DA:O--it's an incredibly challenging fight that expects the player to lose, but if you DO win, the game respects that outcome instead of the lazy path of forcing you to lose all the time.

[David7204]

I thought you were done here?

Plot armor is one of the most poorly defined entries on TV tropes, particularly in regard to video games. I don't like the name. It's very commonly used incorrectly. One of these days, I'll probably write a paper and try to get it updated.

Nonetheless, it has a specific meaning. And this is not it.

The player's ability or inability to do something has nothing to do with plot armor. Plot armor is a character implausibly surviving a situation on nothing more than contrived circumstances or 'luck' in story. And nothing happens to Kai Leng in which he survives implausibly.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I liked the ending of the Thessia mission. Dat music. Also, it showed that sometimes, even Shepard fails.

[Village_Idiot]

Reorte wrote...

Back on Virmire it was done in a way that made it feel like I was beating Saren and he got away by the skin of his teeth. With Kai Leng I was beating the crap out of him then suddenly he won the fight.

I agree. It was the presentation of the fight, rather than its outcome. I have no issue with Kai Leng escaping if the plot demands it, but it needs to be justified. Getting beaten by a gunship that was little more than a mini boss in ME2 felt far too railroaded. The odds needed to be somewhat more hopeless in order for it to be less jarring.

[Sable Rhapsody]

David7204 wrote...
Plot armor is a character implausibly surviving a situation on nothing more than contrived circumstances or 'luck' in story. And nothing happens to Kai Leng in which he survives implausibly.

I'd say a guy with a sword and a gunship surviving a fight against a team that regularly took down Geth Colossi and thresher maws and Harvesters on foot is pretty contrived.  Also, if the asari are the most advanced species in the galaxy, you'd think it'd take more than a few missiles to collapse the temple with military-grade security and the most important Prothean beacon in their civilization.

The Citadel was different--I'll give him that one.  Shep was more focused on a) saving the Council and Kirrahe/Thane's condition.  Kai Leng had the upper hand.  But Thessia...that was implausible at best.

[David7204]

The word 'implausible' becomes meaningless if we let it be defined as someone being successful in a battle with the odds against them. Someone could say the same thing about Shepard surviving throughout the three games in the first place. Shepard and Leng are both skilled, but Shepard is not so powerful as that the possibility of being beaten by another man is 'contrived.'

Modifié par David7204, 17 novembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[Village_Idiot]

David7204 wrote...

The word 'implausible' becomes meaningless if we let it be defined as someone being successful in a battle with the odds against them. Someone could say the same thing about Shepard surviving throughout the three games in the first place. Shepard and Leng are both skilled, but Shepard is not so powerful as that the possibility of being beaten by another man is 'contrived.'

As I said, presentation. Had the Thessia fight been portrayed in such a way as to make the player all too aware this was a hopeless battle, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as jarring. As it was it felt, in my humble opinion, like a slightly more intense fight, in which defeat only appeared to be the only option once the final cutscene kicked in. To put it simply, the odds of victory just didn't appear to be particularly slim. YMMV of course.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 17 novembre 2012 - 01:05 .

[Fifmut]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Torture scenes can be tough, for several reasons. How, specifically, is Shepard tortured?

I was actually going to come back because i thought of something else to add. Like i said i haven't thought about this for too long, so i'm only gonna be able to half answer your question. We'll assume that there is some physical torture involved, but what i just thought of is that at one point, your LI or character you have the highest relationship with is brought in. For every question Kai Leng asks that you don't answer, he tortures your LI, and each time he does it, the torture intensifies.

Now i was thinking that depending on how high your relationship points with the character is, there's a possiblity your LI could end up dying in this scene from the pain. If your relationship points is really high with them however, then they'll have a stronger will to live.

But to me this would've been an effective player punch, and would give us a solid and emotional reason to wanna kick Kai Leng's ***.

Torturing your LI? That could've been the most emotional scene in the whole game. I can imagine them bringing in Liara if I don't answer the questions and punching her every time I refuse to answer..similiar to what happens in Bryson's lab in Leviathan.
And then i get to choose if give up and save her or be a renegade and let them continue. If I give them the answers they send their ships to take over the crucible, if I don't they kill my LI...
So much potential in this! It could greatly affect the relationship with your LI, and could be the cause of Shepard's PTSD, instead of that little bastard

[Village_Idiot]

Double post.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 17 novembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[Zazzerka]

Fifmut wrote...
Torturing your LI? That could've been the most emotional scene in the whole game. I can imagine them bringing in Liara if I don't answer the questions and punching her every time I refuse to answer..similiar to what happens in Bryson's lab in Leviathan.

Everyone would die.

Everyone.

[David7204]

Yeah, it could have been emotional...it also could very, very, very easily become incredibly frustrating and end up with players feeling resentful towards their love interest or towards Shepard.

I don't like the dream sequences. But that's all they are, and that's where they stay. Shepard mentions the kid once to Garrus and that's it. Having the characters react properly to what happened would be incredibly difficult to do.

Modifié par David7204, 17 novembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[Fifmut]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

Fifmut wrote...
Torturing your LI? That could've been the most emotional scene in the whole game. I can imagine them bringing in Liara if I don't answer the questions and punching her every time I refuse to answer..similiar to what happens in Bryson's lab in Leviathan.

Everyone would die.

Everyone.

I know, I know, I'd probably tell them everything they want the moment they bring her in...and get gruesome revenge later for even thinking about it.

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, I'd like to remind you that the exact same thing happened with Saren in ME 1...and yet I don't see anyone complaining about how bad Virmire was or how much they hate Saren. Or using petty and childish insults.

Secondly, yes, not being able to kill Kai Leng is gameplay and story segregation (which exists in all games to some extent.) That isn't plot armor.

Saren wasn't taken down with a few blasts of a shotgun though. Kai Leng would have been if the automatic cutscene hadn't been triggered making us lose.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, I'd like to remind you that the exact same thing happened with Saren in ME 1...and yet I don't see anyone complaining about how bad Virmire was or how much they hate Saren. Or using petty and childish insults.

Secondly, yes, not being able to kill Kai Leng is gameplay and story segregation (which exists in all games to some extent.) That isn't plot armor.

So it is plot armor, but because few tend to complains about a similar scene on Virmire it's no longer  a valid critique?
Alright here's the differences between the two scenes.
First Saren actually physically confronts after the inital gun battle, making him seem more credible that a guy who just runs away and calls for reinforcments.
Second Saren also doesn't get the best of you, event if the act costs you a squadmate you still blow up Saren's base and stop the genophage cure.
Third Saren is a confident and composed villian who can be taken seriously and actually tries to eliminate you, Kai Leng is a manchild assassin who keeps running away when you get in his way.

[David7204]

It isn't plot armor in either case.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

I would have preferred sad sex with Liara...but whatever tickles those nuts of yours....

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

It isn't plot armor in either case.

When a chacter is protected from death, serious wounds, and generally any sort of harm until dramatically appropriate, which is the case with both Saren and Kai Leng it's plot armor. Liara has it too.

[Zazzerka]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I would have preferred sad sex with Liara...but whatever tickles those nuts of yours....

Wouldn't angry be better? With sad sex, I can just see them quitting halfway through to cry.

[Argolas]

Greylycantrope wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It isn't plot armor in either case.

When a chacter is protected from death, serious wounds, and generally any sort of harm until dramatically appropriate, which is the case with both Saren and Kai Leng it's plot armor. Liara has it too.

Wait, so every character who can't die in the game has plot armor?