41 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Actually, if you choose Bhelen and let the Anvil exist the same thing happens. They are two totally separate issues.

And yes Zafireria, you can choose based on what you know is going to happen later. I don't, at least, I don't if it doesn't fit my character (who doesn't have a crystal ball and doesn't know that Harrowmont will be weak and Bhelen strong etc).

So, my dwarven noble chooses Harrowmont. She knows the truth about Bhelen, what he did, his murder of their brother and framing of herself. Would that person side with Bhelen. Nope.

My human noble, who didn't know the truth, still suspected and furthermore came from a noble family; he was raised to be a bit of a traditionalist, and so chose Harrowmont.

My dwarf commoner on the other hand, neither knows nor cares about Bhelen vs Harrowmont. She is casteless, and her own sister is living in Bhelen's household. She is more pragmatic, a tougher cookie who has been through a lot, and definitely NOT a traditionalist. She's gonna go with Bhelen.

And so on.

My human noble went with Bhelen actually.  Sure he was a bit of a traditionalist as well but not a dwarven traditionalist so he goes with the son, Bhelen, who would most likely inherit his father's position in human lands.  He didn't care about dwarven politics which are much nastier than human politics so didn't care who the nobles preferred and instead went with what the 'people' wanted and who looked like they would actually get the dwarven army ready in time.

[MisterBellyButtonMan]

As others said go with what fits the character. Bhelen is an obvious choice for the casteless and my casteless dwarf will surely pick him. Not very many casteless would want to live as they do. It's a real grey area because as far as end results go, he ends up being the better king. He even lives up to his word and sends his soldiers as well as giving you a gift. He is ruthless but more efficient than Harrowmont. Harrowmont, however is the least ruthless and the "nicer guy" and while he was the king's choice this doesn't make him a good king.



You also have many ways to look at Bhelen's actions. Yes he murdered his own brothers, but these were people that wanted to preserve the traditions that Bhelen found horrible. Was this ruthless ambition or the actions of a revolutionary? It is not clear cut at all, especially after you see the ending and realize how good of a king he becomes (even if he is a tyrant). The cloudiness of the story is what makes it so good and intriguing.

[keesio74]

Bhelen = nasty character, implements some good ideas to help majority of people. Dictator/tyrant

Harrowmont = more honorable, diplomatic, wants to stick to old outdated conservative values, keep status quo - even when it is not really good.



Bhelen is kind of like some of those socialist revolutionaries (ends justify the means) you see that start with good intentions, and makes things better for awhile, but ends up hurting at the end because of the consolidation of power (no democracy). Bhelen already dissolves the assembly and becomes a dictator so that looks like where he is headed.



Harrowmont is simply stale status quo. Which you like better can depend on your political stance.

[Roland The Great]

No wonder the Assembly can't chose one we sound just like them.. Ahh More Death....

[Roland The Great]

I been looking and looking for 3 days now. How do I get to the Dead Trenches. I got the map from her journal now I can't find how to get to the place.

[Kepha]

You need to exit Ortan Thaig from the exit behind the journal. Then the Dead Trenches should who up on the Deep Roads Map.

[Zecele]

But you are also right. A ruthless pragmatic approach, such as you have described, is very fitting for the dwarven society.

This has been a weird adjustment for me in this game because typically dwarves aren't anything like DAO dwarves. They're pragmatic but typically highly honorable. Kiling kin is a big no-no in most fantasy dwarf cultures.  In fact if you want a bunch of pissed off dwarves on your hands usually the way to do it is for an outsider to kill one.  DAO dwarves honestly remind more of Drow from the Salvatore books with all their intrigue.

Modifié par Zecele, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:20 .

[Johnson45]

Would anybody disagree strongly or leave if i chose not to destroy the anvil?

[Raphael diSanto]

Johnson45 wrote...

Would anybody disagree strongly or leave if i chose not to destroy the anvil?

Shale gets pissed if you don't destroy the anvil. If she's in your party, she'll attack you and you'll be forced to kill her, permanently. If she's not, you can lie about it at camp later, if you have high enough cunning/coercion. The anvil is Shale's defining moment, just like the Urn of Ashes is for Wynne/Lelilana (although you can lie to them, too, haha)

Zecele wrote...
as been a weird adjustment for me in this
game because typically dwarves aren't anything like DAO dwarves.
They're pragmatic but typically highly honorable. DAO dwarves honestly
remind more of Drow from the Salvatore books with all their
intrigue.

That's actually the very first thought that I had - That dwarven politics in DA:O were very drow-esque, except more upfront and blatant. The game throws it to you right at the start with the argument between the noble and the scribe and after it's done Gorim flat out comes to you right there in the middle of the street and says "Do you want him killed?"

That said, my dwarf noble sided with Harrowmont. Bhelen may have played that game better than me at the start, but the game didn't end when I got exiled - I'm back for round two, and this time I win. Forever. (And besides, if you side with Harrowmont as a Dwarf Noble, he might mess Orzammar up for a bit, but he names you as king next, so you can fix all the stuff he screwed up)

Dwarf commoner, of course, /should/ side with Bhelen. That should be a no-brainer, because regardless of politics, Bhelen's fate is intertwined with your sister. Can't do anything about that. For me, the ideal outcome there would be to side with Harrowmont because he clearly is the "nicer" guy (the game definitely goes out of its way to push him as such, both during the Paragon of her Kind quest, and even during the Dwarf Noble origin story, where the Dwarf Commoner wouldn't even see him), and then take my sister with me back to the surface where she can live with me in the grey warden fortress.

I'm guessing that's not an option though. If you side with Harrowmont as a commoner, is it even mentioned what happens to Rica after Bhelen gets his head chopped off at the assembly?

[Skybound2X]

<i>I'm guessing that's not an option though. If you side with Harrowmont as a commoner, is it even mentioned what happens to Rica after Bhelen gets his head chopped off at the assembly?</i>



BUMP! Because I need to know the answer to this, please!

[Gilsa]

I don't remember the exact words, but if Bhelen doesn't become king, then Rica, the mom, and the kid should be kicked back to Dust Town. I only got as far as picking Harrowmont in the end and Rica (still in Bhelen's room with her mom in the background) was mad enough to disown me as her sister. Wouldn't talk to me anymore. That's as far as I got since I actually sided with Bhelen and was just exploring the Harrowmont path from an earlier save. I am actually wondering what Rica says at the very end since she is the one that shows up after the archdemon is slain. I may have to create another dwarf commoner just to see the Harrowmont angle, but that is a very long game to play "just to see."

[Costello_Anasazi]

I found the dwarven aspect of the game to be the least enjoyable. I think this is probably cause it is very comon to most fantasy games that you have dwarves you spend 5 hours wondering through tunnels fighting your way through slowly getting deeper.



That said the brood mother aspect was very good and and an enjoyable fight. As to who to pick, unlike the rest of the game there isn't a good solution to the dwarven problem. You can't make the exiled Son into a good ruler (maybe cause you could be playing him) and the other 2 both have their faults. As such picking the lesser of two evils makes this the hardest decision in the game. Else where with the Mages or Redcliff the good and evil options are clear.



As such I often find myself supporting the Prince, cause at least then he will keep the darkspawn from the human lands for as long as possible. Even if he conscripts every castless into his golem army to do it.

[BewareTheDrow]

Ishbo wrote...

What I don't understand is why I have to choose Belen and Harrowmont after destroying the Anvil.

I have a crown, made by a Paragon, which allows me to choose absolutely anyone! Why not Oghren? Hell, Ruck? At least I can be sure they'll send an army to help me.

Lol @ King Ruck, with his shiny worms and pretty rocks.

[Wonderllama4]

Harrowmont was a nicer guy so I chose him for my good guy playthrough

[Masticetobbacco]

harrowmont is a weak leader and overall leads to the failure of the dwarven people

[Ya0guai]

I see most of you have made your choice on who should be king based on your characters race and position within that race, I went for a different approach I based my choice on that fact my Dalish rogue is here on behalf of the Grey Wardens who stand for honor and integrity, so to me Harrowmont was the obvious choice after speaking to Dulin and Vartag. Vartag wanted me to sneak and skulk around and dirty the Harrowmont name with "evidence" that May or may not be true, Dulin approached me with a more honorable offer of becoming Harrowmonts champion and proving my honor in the proving which I wouldn't of had to do if Bhelen and Vartag hadn't already blackmailed the fighters to drop out (more of that sneaking amd skulking). My point being how can my character who believes in her honor and integrity ever expect either of those qualities from Bhelen

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arise, oh thread. Arise from the dead.

In answer to your question: you can't expect honor from Bhelen. The question is whether you prioritize honor over the ruler's strength, bearing in mind that the honorable move would in this case entail putting a weak man in charge of the major group preventing the darkspawn from taking total control over the Deep Roads. If you prioritize honor, fine. If your character prioritizes honor and you don't, that's also fine; I've played characters like that. Just know that there's a very valid argument against that position even without metagame knowledge of the epilogue slides.

Edit: Also, the Wardens really aren't as morally pure as you make them out to be. The organization as a whole is willing to be rather ruthless, as one might observe watching Jory try not to Join it. (Were you wondering why they're not called the White Wardens?)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 novembre 2013 - 03:18 .