177 réponses à ce sujet

[Patchwork]

Sharn01 wrote...

Tougher to sell DLC when players can make their own.

Not really, mods extend people's interest in a game which means DLC sales. It's not an either or situation and rarely do mods have the professional polish of a DLC.

If Bioware played it smart they could use the interest in mods and new content to their advantage.

[Realmzmaster]

gw2005 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Well, seems I was mistaken in what I thought the tweet meant, oh well. Sorry for wasting your guys time, didn't know any better.

No worries, being user-side and trying to work out exactly what everything means can be a headache.

Long story short, here's the problem with toolsets.  The devs could theoretically just take the toolset they use to make the game and ship it with the game.  If they did, there'd be an immediate outcry of "WTF IS THIS?!"  It'd be very user unfriendly, and only those with experience in game development and programming would be able to make sense of it in a reasonable amount of time.  As it stands, even the relatively user-friendly NWN, DA:O, and Skyrim toolsets can still get pretty arcane the deeper you go.

The resource cost comes not in developing the toolset, but in taking the dev toolset and making it something that fans can actually use without a) taking a bunch of classes or breaking the game.

Ship it with the game? When was the last this happened, just make it downloadable, and people who knows how to work with it can give it a shot. No?:innocent:

Bioware will not ship anything in basic developers form, because DICE may not want it released that way. The developers toolset would have to be modified to remove any secrets that DICE does not want released and put it in a form that would not break the game.

[Realmzmaster]

Ser Bard wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Tougher to sell DLC when players can make their own.

Not really, mods extend people's interest in a game which means DLC sales. It's not an either or situation and rarely do mods have the professional polish of a DLC.

If Bioware played it smart they could use the interest in mods and new content to their advantage.

Which is only useful on the PC side. Bioware's largest market (it fact most developers) is the console market which requires a certification process for anything that is released.

[Sable Rhapsody]

gw2005 wrote...

Ship it with the game? When was the last this happened, just make it downloadable, and people who knows how to work with it can give it a shot. No?:innocent:

Sorry, awkward turn of phrase.  I meant that merely taking the developer toolset and making that available for users would not satisfy what most people think of as a modding toolset.

[Cell1e]

gw2005 wrote...

I missed the toolset while playing DA2, had to rely on a whole bunch of third party softwares just to do the most miniscule modding. Haven't Bioware already realised the power of the fan base when it comes to creative ways to make the game better?

Even the supposedly unmoddable ME series had dozens of mods made. Mostly texture mods, but as we can see with all the awesome mods/fan films/custom campaigns made for DA:O, it could have been much more.

So toolset for DA3???

I hope it will be possible for a toolset. I loved the mods for DAO. Wow there are some very talented people out there who made and shared their mods for free for other players, I think it is so wonderful that people do that. I loved replaying my DAO over and over trying out the different mods.

By the way, thanks to all the modders out there who did mods for ME and DA series. I think you are all wonderful and I vote for toolset!

[PinkysPain]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Bioware will not ship anything in basic developers form, because DICE may not want it released that way. The developers toolset would have to be modified to remove any secrets that DICE does not want released and put it in a form that would not break the game.

There are no secrets ... the SDK is available to thousands of devs worldwide, if a competitor wants a copy to reverse engineer they get a copy.

[AstraDrakkar]

I absolutely loved the mods available for DAO. They kept me playing that game longer than any other game I've ever played. Even the mods available for the Elder Scrolls games weren't near as entertaining as the DAO ones. Come to think of it, the only games I've played for an extended period of time were the ones with mods available.

Sadly, I somehow doubt Bioware will release another toolset for modders.

[Emzamination]

I've been informed that I'm not allowed to give my view points on this particular subject anymore, but I will say that I rather like Bioware releasing the dlc because then everyone can share in.

[PinkysPain]

Emzamination wrote...
I've been informed that I'm not allowed to give my view points on this particular subject anymore, but I will say that I rather like Bioware releasing the dlc because then everyone can share in.

I guess if I had a lobotomy I could join in ... but as it stands I refuse to buy/play DA2 without modtools (not my general stance on games, just on bad ones with potential).

[Viktoria Landers]

 History has showed that the most played games and the ones which outlived the others always had a toolset/editor which dramatically increased their pre-existing limits. DA2's lack of toolset was one of the reasons why this game wasn't received so well by the community unlike it's predecessor.

[naughty99]

gw2005 wrote...

I missed the toolset while playing DA2, had to rely on a whole bunch of third party softwares just to do the most miniscule modding. Haven't Bioware already realised the power of the fan base when it comes to creative ways to make the game better?

Even the supposedly unmoddable ME series had dozens of mods made. Mostly texture mods, but as we can see with all the awesome mods/fan films/custom campaigns made for DA:O, it could have been much more.

So toolset for DA3???

I really hope so, but it seems unlikely.

I'd love to see official mod tools, ideally integrated with some way to publish and share your mods, perhaps through Origin. I think it would greatly enhance the value of the game.

Viktoria Landers wrote...

 DA2's lack of toolset was one of the reasons why this game wasn't received so well by the community unlike it's predecessor.

Yes, with an official editor, so many aspects of DA2 could have been greatly improved and expanded upon.

Modifié par naughty99, 19 novembre 2012 - 12:50 .

[Viktoria Landers]

1) They believe only a tiny percentage of PC gamers will use it and obviously no console gamers at all

Given the hundreds of thousands of unique downloads on some mods in Nexus, I'll refuse that this is actually true.

[Atakuma]

PinkysPain wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Bioware will not ship anything in basic developers form, because DICE may not want it released that way. The developers toolset would have to be modified to remove any secrets that DICE does not want released and put it in a form that would not break the game.

There are no secrets ... the SDK is available to thousands of devs worldwide, if a competitor wants a copy to reverse engineer they get a copy.

That is not true. Frostbite 2 is an in house engine that would only be available to EA games.

[PinkysPain]

Atakuma wrote...
That is not true. Frostbite 2 is an in house engine that would only be available to EA games.

EA is huge, lots of teams are using it, lots of teams with lots of churn ... so as I said, if a competitor really wanted to they'd be able to get a look.

[PirateJoe73]

I purchased Skyrim, first for the Xbox.
I purchased it again for the PC because I wanted to use the Mods people made for it. The ones that weren't available on the Xbox.

I still purchased the DLC for the Xbox, Both of them, and I am planning on buying the new one when it comes out.

If EA wants to deny people like me exist, they are only cutting into possible profits. Even on a tight budget, people will still spend a lot on entertainment such as DVD's, music, and video games rather than big ticket items like Cars or fancy HD 3D TV's

But it isn't my choice if EA wants to be short sighted. Skyrim user mods got me excited and made me spend money without any hesitation. It even inspired the Hearthfire DLC for Skyrim.

How much profit did they make for that? A toolset is something to think on, is all I am saying.

Modifié par PirateJoe73, 19 novembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Realmzmaster]

PinkysPain wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Bioware will not ship anything in basic developers form, because DICE may not want it released that way. The developers toolset would have to be modified to remove any secrets that DICE does not want released and put it in a form that would not break the game.

There are no secrets ... the SDK is available to thousands of devs worldwide, if a competitor wants a copy to reverse engineer they get a copy.

Yes a competitor can reverse engineer it , but they cannot copy the code. The competitor would have to find a different way to minic what DICE did. Also since the engine is in-house for EA the SDK is not available to everyone. Developers in EA's other divisions are also bound by contract not to reveal anything that DICE does not want revealed.

DICE is owned by EA. Therefore EA owns the Frostbite 2 engine.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Realmzmaster]

PinkysPain wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
That is not true. Frostbite 2 is an in house engine that would only be available to EA games.

EA is huge, lots of teams are using it, lots of teams with lots of churn ... so as I said, if a competitor really wanted to they'd be able to get a look.

EA knows who has the SDK. DICE keeps tabs on which divisions have it. Also all their employees sign contracts. Nobody wants to get sued or accuse of theft of intellectual property.

[Lord Issa]

I'd love a toolset, as I've stated several times in similar threads. Probably the one thing that would make this an instant preorder for me.

[The_11thDoctor]

Wanted one since da2, but I hope this time it wont be a miss.

[Yuoaman]

I would love if they actually did this, modding support is one of the highlights of PC gaming.

[Kr0gan]

Sharn01 wrote...

Tougher to sell cheapass DLC when players can make their own.

Fixed.

And yeah, I want it too... pretty please with a cherry on top?

*puppy eyes

[Anomaly-]

Sharn01 wrote...

Tougher to sell DLC when players can make their own.

DA:O had a toolset, and I still purchased Return to Ostagar, Leliana's Song, and Witch Hunt.

By contrast, DA2 had no toolset, and I didn't purchase any DLC, either. I would have been much more inclined to buy the DLCs if I were able to make DA2 into something I enjoyed.

Emzamination wrote...

I've been informed that I'm not allowed to give my view points on this particular subject anymore, but I will say that I rather like Bioware releasing the dlc because then everyone can share in.

Who says they couldn't still release DLC? That's what I don't understand. They're not mutually exclusive. See my example of Origins above.

What they need to do is actually release quality DLC that contributes something to story, character backgrounds, etc. Since that would be the official story, no mod could contend with it. Even item DLCs would still be official items. Although, frankly, I have no sympathy if they don't see much success with those. I really don't understand people who actually pay for that.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 21 novembre 2012 - 01:51 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Viktoria Landers wrote...

1) They believe only a tiny percentage of PC gamers will use it and obviously no console gamers at all

Given the hundreds of thousands of unique downloads on some mods in Nexus, I'll refuse that this is actually true.

Well, to be fair I don't think BioWare has released data on how many people bought and played an appreciable amount of Origins on PC, Xbox, and PS3 for comparison.  A couple hundred thousand unique downloads could still be a relatively small percentage of the total playerbase.  Not saying that it should be ignored, just that I don't think we have the telemetry data to know exactly what percent of the overall playerbase actually employs mods.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Viktoria Landers wrote...

1) They believe only a tiny percentage of PC gamers will use it and obviously no console gamers at all

Given the hundreds of thousands of unique downloads on some mods in Nexus, I'll refuse that this is actually true.

Well, to be fair I don't think BioWare has released data on how many people bought and played an appreciable amount of Origins on PC, Xbox, and PS3 for comparison.  A couple hundred thousand unique downloads could still be a relatively small percentage of the total playerbase.  Not saying that it should be ignored, just that I don't think we have the telemetry data to know exactly what percent of the overall playerbase actually employs mods.

So? Let's say that this is only 10% of the PC users. Is it worth the zots to release even an unsupported toolset to increase the longevity of the game? Is it worth it to increase long term sales of later DLCs (tool sets historically increase the longevity of a game, the longer a game is actively played by an audience, the longer period of time a team may release DLC for the game using, for the most parts, assets that are already available, which decrease cost, which increase profit). Since we don't know the numbers or the zots involved, we have to be careful in saying one or another whether toolsets are worth it.

Now enough of that reasonable discussion. Bioware is not going to release a toolset. They do not see it as a profitable use of thier time. Increasingly, the console market has been a bigger and bigger focus of their game development. Rather than long term longevity for what they are increasingly seeing (whether rightly or wrongly) as the least important of their market, they are choosing to make short term profit with weapon packs and companion reskins. There seems to be a implicit claim that DA3 will be different, but I suppose we will have to wait.

[Atakuma]

They don't stand to gain anything by releasing a toolset. Sure, you could say that mods keep people playing longer and thus makes them more likely to buy DLC, But multiplayer accomplishes the same thing, and it does it across all platforms instead of just the one.