177 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

A large issue comes from the types of middleware that Frostbite intrinsically uses. The source control schemes and so forth that are already a sunk cost for a game developer, but actually require licensing for people to use (or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price) it.

Finding a way to strip this stuff out and still have it work is a completely nontrivial task.

While for the end user this can be kind of "well crap," it does provide huge savings in manpower investment compared to creating our own engine and whatnot. DAO's engine has its roots in Neverwinter Nights. Much of that infrastructure was still there, but increasingly we found ourselves licensing things and spending less time on making sure the workflow was ideal for end users especially if it was "more than good enough" for our content creators.

So those are some of the risks posed that influence whether or not we'd release the toolset for public use, without even factoring in things like "What does DICE have to say about it?" since that's stuff I have no visibility into.

Mark Darrah I believe made a comment regarding "never say never, but..." and that's probably the safest way to look at it. If we can make it happen without requiring gigantic amounts of investment of our time, then it's much more possible. It's just not a priority. Sorry.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...
Since we don't know the numbers or the zots involved, we have to be careful in saying one or another whether toolsets are worth it.

I know.  That was my point--we simply don't know enough about the cost/benefit of a toolset, how many people would actually use it, etc.  I know users love toolsets, but the developers have to make ends meet too.  

Game longevity is a funny thing--older games shot for longevity based solely on quality and length of game, not DLC or toolsets.  That philosophy seems to have changed.

[jillabender]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A large issue comes from the types of middleware that Frostbite intrinsically uses. The source control schemes and so forth that are already a sunk cost for a game developer, but actually require licensing for people to use (or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price) it.

Finding a way to strip this stuff out and still have it work is a completely nontrivial task.

While for the end user this can be kind of "well crap," it does provide huge savings in manpower investment compared to creating our own engine and whatnot. DAO's engine has its roots in Neverwinter Nights. Much of that infrastructure was still there, but increasingly we found ourselves licensing things and spending less time on making sure the workflow was ideal for end users especially if it was "more than good enough" for our content creators.

So those are some of the risks posed that influence whether or not we'd release the toolset for public use, without even factoring in things like "What does DICE have to say about it?" since that's stuff I have no visibility into.

Mark Darrah I believe made a comment regarding "never say never, but..." and that's probably the safest way to look at it. If we can make it happen without requiring gigantic amounts of investment of our time, then it's much more possible. It's just not a priority. Sorry.

Thanks for the info, Allan! I admit that I would love to see a toolset for DA3, but I appreciate your explanation of why it's not being made a priority so far.

[StarcloudSWG]

Zobo wrote...
Also Frosbite is a property of EA, EA is free to give it to any of its devisions free of charge because otherwise it would be charging itself, which is just crazy. Just by the way, not like it really matters considering the topic at hand.

Clearly, you haven't been employed by a large enough corporation that it had multiple divisions. It is far from unusual to have one division making payments to another for some product or service.

[David Gaider]

jillabender wrote...
Thanks for the info, Allan! I admit that I would love to see a toolset for DA3, but I appreciate your explanation of why it's not being made a priority so far.

Yeah, just an additional comment that "not a priority" shouldn't be taken as "the modders aren't important to us". Sure, their potential audience consists of PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people... and, despite comments about DLC, they're really not competition on that front. Mods are, in fact, a boon that extends the lifespan of the game on PC's. Players who are still playing a game are more likely to buy DLC for it. So it actually helps us on that front, if you think about it.

So ideally we'd do it. The priority that trumps everything else, however, is just getting the game we're making out the door. And for that we need the toolset to simply work... with a new engine, that's a herculean task unto itself which fully occupies our tools programmers and then some, and they're the guys who would be needed to retrofit said toolset for public use. And that's assuming the middleware issues can be resolved, which neither I nor Allan could speak to.

So, yes, that would be exceptionally cool. But, no, like Allan said I really doubt it can happen-- certainly not on release, anyway.

[Anomaly-]

David Gaider wrote...
Yeah, just an additional comment that "not a priority" shouldn't be taken as "the modders aren't important to us". Sure, their potential audience consists of PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people... and, despite comments about DLC, they're really not competition on that front. Mods are, in fact, a boon that extends the lifespan of the game on PC's. Players who are still playing a game are more likely to buy DLC for it. So it actually helps us on that front, if you think about it.

So ideally we'd do it. The priority that trumps everything else, however, is just getting the game we're making out the door. And for that we need the toolset to simply work... with a new engine, that's a herculean task unto itself which fully occupies our tools programmers and then some, and they're the guys who would be needed to retrofit said toolset for public use. And that's assuming the middleware issues can be resolved, which neither I nor Allan could speak to.

So, yes, that would be exceptionally cool. But, no, like Allan said I really doubt it can happen-- certainly not on release, anyway.

While I find that general confirmation devastating and very disappointing, I do appreciate the honesty. I also appreciate that the reasons given are valid and reasonable, rather than the bs DLC arguments, and that the value of mods is recognized and not understated.

[Fawx9]

David Gaider wrote...

jillabender wrote...
Thanks for the info, Allan! I admit that I would love to see a toolset for DA3, but I appreciate your explanation of why it's not being made a priority so far.

Yeah, just an additional comment that "not a priority" shouldn't be taken as "the modders aren't important to us". Sure, their potential audience consists of PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people... and, despite comments about DLC, they're really not competition on that front. Mods are, in fact, a boon that extends the lifespan of the game on PC's. Players who are still playing a game are more likely to buy DLC for it. So it actually helps us on that front, if you think about it.

So ideally we'd do it. The priority that trumps everything else, however, is just getting the game we're making out the door. And for that we need the toolset to simply work... with a new engine, that's a herculean task unto itself which fully occupies our tools programmers and then some, and they're the guys who would be needed to retrofit said toolset for public use. And that's assuming the middleware issues can be resolved, which neither I nor Allan could speak to.

So, yes, that would be exceptionally cool. But, no, like Allan said I really doubt it can happen-- certainly not on release, anyway.

I'll give you two words why it should (eventually) happen.

Desert Combat.

If you want your game to last for a good long time, mods are a great way to get it there. Especially when you let the modders have their way with it.

(I'm not trying to force you, I'm just using a great mod that was based off a previous DICE/EA title as proof of concept)

Modifié par Fawx9, 21 novembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[Firky]

^ David Gaider just said exactly that in the quote you quoted.

When Allan says, "(or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price)" that means too hugely inflated to even try to pin down, right?

Is that cost for user end licensing or making the toolset work without middleware?

(They're probably moot questions. I guess too much and too tricky is the gist.)

[Fawx9]

Firky wrote...

^ David Gaider just said exactly that in the quote you quoted.

When Allan says, "(or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price)" that means too hugely inflated to even try to pin down, right?

Is that cost for user end licensing or making the toolset work without middleware?

(They're probably moot questions. I guess too much and too tricky is the gist.)

Oh I know, I figured I'd do some an outdated marketing push for what seems like an old friend of mine while also trying to reinforce that its a good idea.

[Firky]

David Gaider's mod for Baldur's Gate 2 was still getting love on my computer until about a year ago. (But I'm now forcing myself to wait until BG EEs.)

[jillabender]

David Gaider wrote...

jillabender wrote...
Thanks for the info, Allan! I admit that I would love to see a toolset for DA3, but I appreciate your explanation of why it's not being made a priority so far.

Yeah, just an additional comment that "not a priority" shouldn't be taken as "the modders aren't important to us". Sure, their potential audience consists of PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people... and, despite comments about DLC, they're really not competition on that front. Mods are, in fact, a boon that extends the lifespan of the game on PC's. Players who are still playing a game are more likely to buy DLC for it. So it actually helps us on that front, if you think about it.

So ideally we'd do it. The priority that trumps everything else, however, is just getting the game we're making out the door. And for that we need the toolset to simply work... with a new engine, that's a herculean task unto itself which fully occupies our tools programmers and then some, and they're the guys who would be needed to retrofit said toolset for public use. And that's assuming the middleware issues can be resolved, which neither I nor Allan could speak to.

So, yes, that would be exceptionally cool. But, no, like Allan said I really doubt it can happen-- certainly not on release, anyway.

Thanks for clarifying that, David! Even if a player toolset for DA3 isn't likely, it's really great to hear that you and the rest of the dev team appreciate how much mods add to the game for some of us players.

Modifié par jillabender, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[Allan Schumacher]

When Allan says, "(or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price)" that means too hugely inflated to even try to pin down, right?

Is that cost for user end licensing or making the toolset work without middleware?

My original thought is with the types of middleware integration. I have no clue how that sort of stuff would really work, but I know that we pay licenses for them, and we'd have paid for those licenses regardless of whether we'd use Frostbite or not, so that's not an additional cost to us at all.

I'm not familiar enough (nor technically proficient enough) to really make estimates on how much it would take to make it work without that stuff, but it would be timely for sure.


But yes, I don't think anyone here feels that moddability is a detriment to the game. I certainly don't. When fans fix bugs for games and add more content to it, it typically is only "free reward."

[DahliaLynn]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When Allan says, "(or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price)" that means too hugely inflated to even try to pin down, right?

Is that cost for user end licensing or making the toolset work without middleware?

My original thought is with the types of middleware integration. I have no clue how that sort of stuff would really work, but I know that we pay licenses for them, and we'd have paid for those licenses regardless of whether we'd use Frostbite or not, so that's not an additional cost to us at all.

I'm not familiar enough (nor technically proficient enough) to really make estimates on how much it would take to make it work without that stuff, but it would be timely for sure.

In my experience with the DAO toolset, third party software is a necessity. That includes FMOD which is responsible for all sound integration, FaceFX for Voice over lip sync and facial emotion generation, and a specially developed lightmapper for public use (Python, which is free). Actually working on alternative free software( if even possible) not only will compromise on quality (lightmapper nightmares!!) , but likely will take much dev time as mentioned above.

I'm going to guess that BioWare made a deal with these third party software developers so that it can be made freely available with the toolset release.  If they can do that again, all the better

[Amirit]

I already learned that the best way to chase BW team from a topic (and to shut up everyone else in there) is to ask that question. Still, I hope to get an answer one day (naive, I know). So, here it is - statistic.

That phrase from David Gaider "... PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people..." implies that there are much more people play BW games on consoles then on PC. Is there any numbers somewhere to look at?

[Patchwork]

David Gaider wrote...

jillabender wrote...
Thanks for the info, Allan! I admit that I would love to see a toolset for DA3, but I appreciate your explanation of why it's not being made a priority so far.

Yeah, just an additional comment that "not a priority" shouldn't be taken as "the modders aren't important to us". Sure, their potential audience consists of PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people... and, despite comments about DLC, they're really not competition on that front. Mods are, in fact, a boon that extends the lifespan of the game on PC's. Players who are still playing a game are more likely to buy DLC for it. So it actually helps us on that front, if you think about it.

So ideally we'd do it. The priority that trumps everything else, however, is just getting the game we're making out the door. And for that we need the toolset to simply work... with a new engine, that's a herculean task unto itself which fully occupies our tools programmers and then some, and they're the guys who would be needed to retrofit said toolset for public use. And that's assuming the middleware issues can be resolved, which neither I nor Allan could speak to.

So, yes, that would be exceptionally cool. But, no, like Allan said I really doubt it can happen-- certainly not on release, anyway.

Skyrim's Creation Kit wasn't released at the same time as the game, just thought I'd mention it 

[Fredvdp]

krul2k wrote...

Texture mods aside ive yet to come across a mod that actually makes me want to replay my game, most of the mods ive seen for the latest bioware games are just glorified ****** feasts either adding/modding stupid sex scenes or unclothing an whoring up of all the female characters in the game, is it any wonder they dont want anyone tinkering with there game, i certainly wouldnt seeing what the majority of mods available are like

There are many R rated mods, but not the majority of them. I personally installed quite a bit of great mods, including:

Texture mod
Skip the Fade (best mod ever)
Leliana and Morrigan head morph from the cinematic trailer
Additional equipment
Invisible helmets

One of the most popular mods adds an extra voiced companion to the team, but I personally avoid mods that alter the game too much. They do exist, though.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Bfler]

Fredvdp wrote...

One of the most popular mods adds an extra voiced companion to the team, but I personally avoid mods that alter the game too much. They do exist, though.

What is the name of that mod?
The only mod I know, which adds voiced party members (+ a dragonling), is the dark times mod.

[Travie]

Well, its something I'd love to see but I understand how its not possible depending on the engine...

I usually don't care about money in my daily life (not much anyway), but this is one of those times I wish I had 50 mil laying around to send you guys with a "Make toolset now pls!" note attached.

[Fredvdp]

Bfler wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

One of the most popular mods adds an extra voiced companion to the team, but I personally avoid mods that alter the game too much. They do exist, though.

What is the name of that mod?
The only mod I know, which adds voiced party members (+ a dragonling), is the dark times mod.

Ser Gilmore Companion DLC

You can find it here: dragonage.nexusmods.com/mods/851

I haven't tried it myself, but apparently there's an Awakening version as well.

[syllogi]

Ser Bard wrote...
Skyrim's Creation Kit wasn't released at the same time as the game, just thought I'd mention it 

DA:O's toolset wasn't released at the same time as the game either, and though there was probably a little grousing about a release date, I think most people were okay with the wait.

[Bfler]

Fredvdp wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

One of the most popular mods adds an extra voiced companion to the team, but I personally avoid mods that alter the game too much. They do exist, though.

What is the name of that mod?
The only mod I know, which adds voiced party members (+ a dragonling), is the dark times mod.

Ser Gilmore Companion DLC

You can find it here: dragonage.nexusmods.com/mods/851

I haven't tried it myself, but apparently there's an Awakening version as well.

Ok, thx. I will try it.

Lol, and the name of this man is really Rory Gilmore? Seems someone has watched too much Gilmore Girls.

Modifié par Bfler, 21 novembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[Kidd]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

"What does DICE have to say about it?"

I live pretty close to their headquarters and I am capable of funding cupcakes (as in, a few ). They'd be silly if they started demanding money for all their hard work, right? =D

[Realmzmaster]

Amirit wrote...

I already learned that the best way to chase BW team from a topic (and to shut up everyone else in there) is to ask that question. Still, I hope to get an answer one day (naive, I know). So, here it is - statistic.

That phrase from David Gaider "... PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people..." implies that there are much more people play BW games on consoles then on PC. Is there any numbers somewhere to look at?

If VGChartz number (take them with a grain of salt) are anything to go by the numbers for DAO are:

XBox 2.38 million
PS3  1.49 million
PC       .41 Million

DA2

XBox .96 million
PS3   .64 million
PC     .46 million 

Not counting digital downloads.

The console market is bigger than the PC market by a wide margin.

[Fast Jimmy]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

"What does DICE have to say about it?"

I live pretty close to their headquarters and I am capable of funding cupcakes (as in, a few ). They'd be silly if they started demanding money for all their hard work, right? =D

Previously, I had outlined a pretty decent plan that would monetize the mod industry and generate profit for the developers. I would rather have a mod kit that costs money and/or does not allow more large scale mods to be given away for free rather than have NO mod kit at all. There is a middle ground between 'we can't afford to do a mod kit' and 'here's a mod kit you can have for free and generate content that is distributed by our sites at no cos to anyone but ourselves.'

[Grinchy]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Previously, I had outlined a pretty decent plan that would monetize the mod industry and generate profit for the developers. I would rather have a mod kit that costs money and/or does not allow more large scale mods to be given away for free rather than have NO mod kit at all. There is a middle ground between 'we can't afford to do a mod kit' and 'here's a mod kit you can have for free and generate content that is distributed by our sites at no cos to anyone but ourselves.'

The licensing for a third-party / user generated content would be a nightmare. + reviewing of the content in legal and checking that it is not breaking the main game.