177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nymiria]

Let me just add my quick plea here. Having a toolset will increase my interest plus make the game play more rewarding for me. I say yes, yes yes. Make toolset available!

[David Gaider]

The amount of money we could potentially recoup by charging for the toolset probably wouldn't be worth the problems in doing so. Never mind the rage from PC users that expect to get this sort of thing for free (if and when it's provided), it'd also have to be incredibly expensive to actually have an impact on the cost-- not unless you were required to own the toolset in order to use the mods? Gosh, I really can't even imagine how that would go.

It's generally considered a goodwill project, one with the added benefit of helping a game's community. That community will develop even without it, and they will mod whether there's a toolset or not, but something to help them from our end can help that along a great deal.

Personally, I'd say this is something to start asking for after release-- though it probably doesn't hurt to keep asking regardless. Not that the company is unaware of the desire, but it never hurts to keep awareness up.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

The amount of money we could potentially recoup by charging for the toolset probably wouldn't be worth the problems in doing so. Never mind the rage from PC users that expect to get this sort of thing for free (if and when it's provided), it'd also have to be incredibly expensive to actually have an impact on the cost-- not unless you were required to own the toolset in order to use the mods? Gosh, I really can't even imagine how that would go.

It's generally considered a goodwill project, one with the added benefit of helping a game's community. That community will develop even without it, and they will mod whether there's a toolset or not, but something to help them from our end can help that along a great deal.

Personally, I'd say this is something to start asking for after release-- though it probably doesn't hurt to keep asking regardless. Not that the company is unaware of the desire, but it never hurts to keep awareness up.

Be wary when you say things like that. I wouldn't be surprised to see a dozen threads pop up before long all saying "Gaider supports us!" when demands are made. lol

On topic: As for me, I have no need for a toolset as I am a PS3 player. Game mods are incompatible. Sadly. . . *cries in corner*

[jillabender]

David Gaider wrote...

[…]

Personally, I'd say this is something to start asking for after release-- though it probably doesn't hurt to keep asking regardless. Not that the company is unaware of the desire, but it never hurts to keep awareness up.

Haha… you may regret saying that! ;D

Still, it's great to hear that the interest in a toolset isn't going unnoticed!

Modifié par jillabender, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

...it never hurts to keep awareness up.

You just summarised my entire reason for being here.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Aside from an actual and unlikely toolset, I hope they will at least make the game easy to mod again. Dragon Age was always easy to apply mods to, regardless of how said mods were made. The override folder and DAUpdater are immensely useful. Its what games like Elder scrolls have done as well. Even before the Skyrim toolset was released mods were still popular and easy to install thanks to the game's open door policy.

So I hope they will at least implement an open door for mods like that again instead of taking the path with this new engine that most other companies do which their games remain very difficult to even get any mods applied at all. Like Mass Effect...

If DA3 is easy to apply mods to, then it won't even matter too much if no toolset is released. The mods will still come in droves, it will just take longer.

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 24 novembre 2012 - 12:12 .

[Fredvdp]

I think a toolset can vastly improve a game. Imagine if DA2 had a decent toolset. Someone would no doubt have created extra levels so we don't see as much recycled areas making the game more replayable.

On the other hand, if DA3 is a really good game, I don't think a toolset is necessary. I would still love it, though.

[Brahox]

David Gaider wrote...

The amount of money we could potentially recoup by charging for the toolset probably wouldn't be worth the problems in doing so. Never mind the rage from PC users that expect to get this sort of thing for free (if and when it's provided), it'd also have to be incredibly expensive to actually have an impact on the cost-- not unless you were required to own the toolset in order to use the mods? Gosh, I really can't even imagine how that would go.

It's generally considered a goodwill project, one with the added benefit of helping a game's community. That community will develop even without it, and they will mod whether there's a toolset or not, but something to help them from our end can help that along a great deal.

Personally, I'd say this is something to start asking for after release-- though it probably doesn't hurt to keep asking regardless. Not that the company is unaware of the desire, but it never hurts to keep awareness up.

Ya because "after release" really helped with DA2... I'm sorry but I can't help but feel we will never get a toolset again. When you guys release dlc like armor/weapons/dlc for 5$  that most modders can do better for free its a wast of money for you and us. So instead you'll keep on releasing these small armor/weapon/dlc packs for 5$ and shut the door on free mods that do the same if not more. Not like anyone can really fault you guys because it is about making money,  but at the very least lets not beat around the bush about it., it's getting old. As for PC gamers raging about it not being free if it was to have a price, I think you guys should take a note or two from CDProjektRED. Treat you're customers with some respect and stop 5 and 10 dollaring us.  If I'm worng, I'm sorry but thats how I feel about it.

[PirateJoe73]

@Brahox
I can understand your disappointment but it isn't our choice if Bioware chooses not to have a toolset.
I just see higher prices for games ($40 - $60) that do have toolsets while Amazon has a current bundle of MA 1 and 2 with DA:0 ultimate and DA2 for $14. 4 games for $14 and the DLC is nice.


People want a value for the money, being able to replay a game helps with that so very much. I hope Bioware gets that eventually and stops inventing reasons why they can't.

Modifié par PirateJoe73, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[StElmo]

David Gaider wrote...

The amount of money we could potentially recoup by charging for the toolset probably wouldn't be worth the problems in doing so. Never mind the rage from PC users that expect to get this sort of thing for free (if and when it's provided), it'd also have to be incredibly expensive to actually have an impact on the cost-- not unless you were required to own the toolset in order to use the mods? Gosh, I really can't even imagine how that would go.

It's generally considered a goodwill project, one with the added benefit of helping a game's community. That community will develop even without it, and they will mod whether there's a toolset or not, but something to help them from our end can help that along a great deal.

Personally, I'd say this is something to start asking for after release-- though it probably doesn't hurt to keep asking regardless. Not that the company is unaware of the desire, but it never hurts to keep awareness up.

Good thing about a toolset is DayZ - if someone makes a badass DA3 mod you get more sales. It's a good investment.

[Allan Schumacher]

We all understand that if someone turns magic with a toolset it can do wonders for sales.

People want a value for the money, being able to replay a game helps with that so very much. I hope Bioware gets that eventually and stops inventing reasons why they can't.

It's important to make a distinction between what you want and what the gaming population wants (or rather, feels is important).

A large part of the problem is people are very tunnel visioned in their perspectives, in that they'll see the price of something like Skyrim, see it has a toolset, and conclude that the toolset is why.

At the same time, someone will champion Skyrim's success for whatever reason that they feel is most important.

Tell us that you hope that we "get it" eventually is a bit silly. BioWare has in fact released games with toolsets. Two of them. It's not like we're just making random guesses as to the difficulty or "inventing reasons."

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 26 novembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[FaWa]

DA2 had some visual mods and what not. Does it suck that we probably won't be getting a toolset? Yea, but its not the end of the world, and modders will persevere.

[Fast Jimmy]

David Gaider wrote...

The amount of money we could potentially recoup by charging for the toolset probably wouldn't be worth the problems in doing so. Never mind the rage from PC users that expect to get this sort of thing for free (if and when it's provided), it'd also have to be incredibly expensive to actually have an impact on the cost-- not unless you were required to own the toolset in order to use the mods? Gosh, I really can't even imagine how that would go.

 
I had suggested that the toolkit be a modest fee (I don't know of the expense involved, but maybe even having a free version and a premium one would be something to look at?) but then to charge a fee (again, modest) for content over a certain size. Using arbitrary examples, reskins or random cosmetic things would be free, since they wouldn't be large enough. Fan patches, changes to gameplay elements, new dungeons, etc. would be past the threshold and cost a low price (~$1). Entire fan made projects that involve multiple characters, locations, content that could rival what a DLC would give could be sold for slightly more. Including programming that any mod made with the kit is required to be downloaded from Bioware's site (where it could act as a gating mechanism) would be a feasible way to police this. 

It's generally considered a goodwill project, one with the added benefit of helping a game's community. That community will develop even without it, and they will mod whether there's a toolset or not, but something to help them from our end can help that along a great deal.

You know what they say... the way to make a kid cry is to give them candy, then take it away...

...then again, the best way to sell drugs is to give the first hit free, then charge once you have them hooked. Fans are going through withdrawals for their fix of a Bioware toolkit. And just like if heroin dries up, people can make meth... but do you really want them to? 

Personally, I'd say this is something to start asking for after release-- though it probably doesn't hurt to keep asking regardless. Not that the company is unaware of the desire, but it never hurts to keep awareness up.

There is never going to be a 'good' time to have this conversation. Fairly early after the game is announced, things are still 'being worked out,' so devs will commit to nothing. Right before release, the work will be near done or locked down, so we're told to wait until after release. Post-release, there are patches or DLC being worked that take precedence. Long after release, the majority of work is done or relocate to other projects, so ask again for next game. In the lull between games, there isn't a sequel 'announced' so nothing can be promised. Then, after the game is announced, the details 'haven't been worked out' and the process repeats itself. 

To be fair, nothing we can say will convince you all of the value of a mod kit - at this point, I know you all are quite aware of the costs and benefits. So a discussion is pretty moot. That is why I only really try and highlight different ways it could be monetized and make the costs less prohibitive for Bioware, so that the benefits outweight it.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[StElmo]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

We all understand that if someone turns magic with a toolset it can do wonders for sales.

People want a value for the money, being able to replay a game helps with that so very much. I hope Bioware gets that eventually and stops inventing reasons why they can't.

It's important to make a distinction between what you want and what the gaming population wants (or rather, feels is important).

A large part of the problem is people are very tunnel visioned in their perspectives, in that they'll see the price of something like Skyrim, see it has a toolset, and conclude that the toolset is why.

At the same time, someone will champion Skyrim's success for whatever reason that they feel is most important.

Tell us that you hope that we "get it" eventually is a bit silly. BioWare has in fact released games with toolsets. Two of them. It's not like we're just making random guesses as to the difficulty or "inventing reasons."

I  understand, but if you are using an EA owned toolset, it should be legally easier than say, an unreal integrated game?

Anyway, a toolset mitigates a lot of risk, because with Skyrim, for instance, a lot of people on PC simply didn't worry about the design decisions because they knew how easy it would be to have it modded out.

So you consider than, you consider that more risks can be taken if there is a "fall back" method for the PC gamers, at least.

Also, think of duality of sales. Loads of Skyrim console owners, bought a PC version for the mods, even though their systems might be playing the game on low settings.

Skyrim is a standard, IMHO - bugs notwithstanding (that said, their patches also add features!)

Its a good way to propegate the origin client also. Think about all the new PC gamers you could attract with a PC focus with things like toolsets as a marketing strategy.

I personally cannot see any barriers as to why a toolset is a bad idea, I guess that is the main point of this thread.

Modifié par StElmo, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

If you cannot see any barriers for a toolset, why don't you read David Gaider's and Allan's posts, StElmo?

They addressed a number of your points over the last three pages, afterall.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I understand, but if you are using an EA owned toolset, it should be legally easier than say, an unreal integrated game?

I don't know if it'd be easier (because I don't know what strings may be attached to doing it with Unreal), but it certainly wouldn't be harder. It probably would be quite a bit easier though.

Anyway, a toolset mitigates a lot of risk, because with Skyrim, for instance, a lot of people on PC simply didn't worry about the design decisions because they knew how easy it would be to have it modded out.

One bad thing about this, though, is that this only helps the PC players though.

I personally cannot see any barriers as to why a toolset is a bad idea, I guess that is the main point of this thread.

Source control middleware that is a part of the engine. Makes our job way easier (and it's no additional cost to us since we were already using it) in many ways. Oh hey, it has an annual license in order to use it... (or a higher cost single payment).

Is it fair to ask people to slap down $700 for a license and take the time to set up the source control server as well?

[hoorayforicecream]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Source control middleware that is a part of the engine. Makes our job way easier (and it's no additional cost to us since we were already using it) in many ways. Oh hey, it has an annual license in order to use it... (or a higher cost single payment).

Is it fair to ask people to slap down $700 for a license and take the time to set up the source control server as well?

Some source control middleware has free licenses for sufficiently small numbers of users. Perforce, for example, has a free version for up to 20 users. Most game developers I know use P4, so it may be possible to circumvent the need for the license. That said, it's still a non-trivial amount of effort to clean up the necessary tools for public use.

[Fawx9]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I understand, but if you are using an EA owned toolset, it should be legally easier than say, an unreal integrated game?

I don't know if it'd be easier (because I don't know what strings may be attached to doing it with Unreal), but it certainly wouldn't be harder. It probably would be quite a bit easier though.

Anyway, a toolset mitigates a lot of risk, because with Skyrim, for instance, a lot of people on PC simply didn't worry about the design decisions because they knew how easy it would be to have it modded out.

One bad thing about this, though, is that this only helps the PC players though.

I personally cannot see any barriers as to why a toolset is a bad idea, I guess that is the main point of this thread.

Source control middleware that is a part of the engine. Makes our job way easier (and it's no additional cost to us since we were already using it) in many ways. Oh hey, it has an annual license in order to use it... (or a higher cost single payment).

Is it fair to ask people to slap down $700 for a license and take the time to set up the source control server as well?

And in return we get comprised graphics and limiting us to use a single key to do about 5-10 different things.


This is totally not a strongly hinted request at a High res texture pack, or patch to allow us to unbind the space key for ME3.

Modifié par Fawx9, 26 novembre 2012 - 04:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

Congratulations, your post has nothing to do with Allen, what Allen said, the thread topic, or even the forum. It's basically no different than quoting his post and complaining about the sandwich you had this afternoon.

On that note, I had a kick ass turkey, cranberry, and stuffing sandwich today.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 novembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Fawx9]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Congratulations, your post has nothing to do with Allen, what Allen said, the thread topic, or even the forum. It's basically no different than quoting his post and complaining about the sandwich you had this afternoon.

On that note, I had a kick ass turkey, cranberry, and stuffing sandwich today.

He pointed out that it only helps the PC players.

Sometimes things that help consoles(compression, strict button mapping, console only sales (leviathan DLC this passed weekend)), don't work as great for PC users.

So I don't see how PC's getting something extra is in any way different from consoles getting their own bonuses.

[Dark0ne-]

The override folder and DAUpdater are immensely useful. Its what games like Elder scrolls have done as well. Even before the Skyrim toolset was released mods were still popular and easy to install thanks to the game's open door policy.

This, this, a thousand times this.

So releasing a publicly available toolset has some serious barriers that can't be overcome? That sucks, for you and for us. However, there is absolutely no excuse why you cannot make your game more modder friendly in the form of texture override folders, open and editable config files and the like. You say you care about your modding community? That's how you prove it.

Unfortunately the "talk about it after release" approach will not work with this issue. And you (BioWare) know it. It's getting to the point now where there's three types of developers. Firstly, there's the developer who just comes out and says they aren't going to be supporting modding at all. I respect that. I think it's a dumb decision but at least they haven't strung their fans along with "after release" talk (because we all know after release the dev team will use the "we're spending all our time fixing bugs" excuse). Secondly, there's the developer who comes out in support of modding and delivers on that promise. Obviously, the utmost respect goes to these developers. And thirdly comes the developer who hops and skirts around the subject of modding. They say they support it but they do nothing to show it. They say they "may" release a toolset but it's too early to talk about it. The game comes out and all the config files are hard-coded, there's no way of getting at the textures and a toolset is not going to come out. I have no respect for these developers at all. So which one is BioWare?

It seems a toolset is very unlikely. Now can we ask about texture overriding and config editing?

[die-yng]

I just wanted to put this on the first page again.

BW knows toolsets have a positive effect on a games long time playability, DLC sales and sales of later editions of the game.

Obviously I'd be all for a toolset, but if not, I want to second everything "Darkone- wrote.
At least make modding as easy as possible without a toolset.

[Emzamination]

No more mod kits bioware, please, I beg of you. Just stick to releasing official dlc and let the mod-kits stay lost in the void. Given enough time away from the modkits, the modders will eventually detox and get over it, same with the people that want to play different races. They all just need time away from their addictions.


@lso bumping topics for the sake of bumping them isn't p.c, just start a new one.

@lso can we get a mod to tone down all those 'pleases', the caps lock is offending to the eyes.

Modifié par Emzamination, 25 janvier 2013 - 05:38 .