35 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

draken-heart wrote...
...in the end this results in them complaining that the import system they have for the game takes away from the story.

I'd really like someone to provide one concrete example of when a file import choice took away from the story. Are they referring to the belief that  cameos by party member from previous gamer are meaningless and distracting? Or this belief that we need some sort of canon for the story to have real coherence and meaning?

Could they be referring to the save import bugs that led to certain decisions not being recognized? That hopefully they are ironing out. I'd like to see some of those fixed. I'd also like to see the problem where my male Warden who romanced Zevran is referred to as a she in DA II, but that's probably too much to ask for at this point.

I don't think either belief is entirely correct. The cameos are generally harmless. If every single companion from DA:O and Awakening had shown up, then I would have found my willing suspension of disbelief... well, suspended.
lastly, official canon, whether in the story or the proposed canonization of Hawke or the Warden, are not going happen. That's not the way BioWare rolls and the Revan/ Exile example is a bad one, as the decision came from LucasArts and not BW. Sorry, that last sentence was just a tad off-topic. Just an issue I have a beef with.

I think the complaint is more about the time that could be spent making the overall story better is being spent on accounting for the choices of past games. People being DA2 and ME3 up on how that stuff can hurt the game and that a set canon can free the writers to better the story by making EACH choice matter.

Also, they bring up Leliana as an example of import not giving choices the attention they deserve, so a bit of the second one.

Modifié par draken-heart, 18 novembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

draken-heart wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

snip

I think the complaint is more about the time that could be spent making the overall story better is being spent on accounting for the choices of past games. People being DA2 and ME3 up on how that stuff can hurt the game and that a set canon can free the writers to better the story by making EACH choice matter.

Also, they bring up Leliana as an example of import not giving choices the attention they deserve, so a bit of the second one.

"making EACH choice matter" is pretty damn vague and rather broad in scope. If they mean that the major decisions (e.g. who you side with in Nature of the Beast, what you do with the sacred ashes in The Urn of Sacred Ashes, how you deal with the problem in The Arl of Redcliffe quests) should have noticeably different outcomes, fine, sure, agreed. I'm okay with some minor quests also having more serious outcomes than they would seem to upon first completing it (unforeseen consequences, choices coming back to bite us).

Would somebody please give me a CONCRETE example of canon freeing writers to tell better stories? This might be the case in a deeply connected trilogy like Mass Effect, but in Dragon Age I really don't see how or why who is ruling over Fereldan or Orzammar, whether a tribe of Dalish elves were wiped out or not, or whether or not the Warden died fighting the Archdemon or went on to become Warden-Commander and who the Warden was in terms of gender, race, and background is going to effect the story of a game which is about a holy war between Templars and Mages. I am fine with this stuff being background material.

To give an example, I think the King or Queen of Fereldan is going to involve his or her armies if and when Fereldan is threatened or directly affected by the Mage/Templar war, regardless of whether it's Alistair or Anora. If Orzammar similarly gets dragged into the conflict somehow, either King will do pretty much the same thing regardless of who was crowned in the first game.

Rather than creating a canon and pissing a large portion of fandom off, they should try and make the main story/ plot as self-contained as possible. Sure many of the themes in Dragon Age II, and certainly the events in the last act are directly linked to the game now in development, but Hawke's story is pretty well contained within that game.

Consequences carried over from one game to the next should only matter if they have any kind of solid link to events in the subsequent game, otherwise I'm perfectly happy with mere lip service being paid or a codex entry.

[draken-heart]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

snip

I think the complaint is more about the time that could be spent making the overall story better is being spent on accounting for the choices of past games. People being DA2 and ME3 up on how that stuff can hurt the game and that a set canon can free the writers to better the story by making EACH choice matter.

Also, they bring up Leliana as an example of import not giving choices the attention they deserve, so a bit of the second one.

"making EACH choice matter" is pretty damn vague and rather broad in scope. If they mean that the major decisions (e.g. who you side with in Nature of the Beast, what you do with the sacred ashes in The Urn of Sacred Ashes, how you deal with the problem in The Arl of Redcliffe quests) should have noticeably different outcomes, fine, sure, agreed. I'm okay with some minor quests also having more serious outcomes than they would seem to upon first completing it (unforeseen consequences, choices coming back to bite us).

Would somebody please give me a CONCRETE example of canon freeing writers to tell better stories? This might be the case in a deeply connected trilogy like Mass Effect, but in Dragon Age I really don't see how or why who is ruling over Fereldan or Orzammar, whether a tribe of Dalish elves were wiped out or not, or whether or not the Warden died fighting the Archdemon or went on to become Warden-Commander and who the Warden was in terms of gender, race, and background is going to effect the story of a game which is about a holy war between Templars and Mages. I am fine with this stuff being background material.

To give an example, I think the King or Queen of Fereldan is going to involve his or her armies if and when Fereldan is threatened or directly affected by the Mage/Templar war, regardless of whether it's Alistair or Anora. If Orzammar similarly gets dragged into the conflict somehow, either King will do pretty much the same thing regardless of who was crowned in the first game.

Rather than creating a canon and pissing a large portion of fandom off, they should try and make the main story/ plot as self-contained as possible. Sure many of the themes in Dragon Age II, and certainly the events in the last act are directly linked to the game now in development, but Hawke's story is pretty well contained within that game.

Consequences carried over from one game to the next should only matter if they have any kind of solid link to events in the subsequent game, otherwise I'm perfectly happy with mere lip service being paid or a codex entry.

I am saying that those people want the game where the story is great and they think that setting canon is what will make the story perfect because they writers do not have to worry about accounting for every single choice. They point to Baulder's gate 2 as the best game because of the set canon, and use DA2 and ME3 as examples of the what happens when you do not set a canon.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

In response to draken-heart's previous response I will say this:

In my humble opinion I don't believe the writers need to account for every single choice made, only the ones that are thematically-related or plot-related to the follow-up game. I really don't think setting a canon makes this easier, but it would be nice if one of the actual writers could chime in on this issue.

Anyone from BioWare care to comment? Anyone?

[Liamv2]

I see this will not end well and be hijacked quickly

ABANDON THREAD!!!

[Bernhardtbr]

It´s a bout making characters that matter, as well.

It´s a major flaw of TES games, most often you really don´t give a s*** to the guys. I mean, I was really dissapointed I couldn´t kill Martin in Oblivion, guy was a lazy useless ******. I made his quests to make the story move forward, not because I liked him. Making characters interesting is a sure way of making the quests be interesting and rewarding as well.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:38 .

[freche]

Two most important things for me is I (my character) should have a valid and good reason for doing the story line. And the game needs to good written protagonist with a really good reason for doing what he/she is doing and during progress through the game we should become emotionally attached to the protagonist.

BG2, DA2 (yes imo DA2 (act1-2, act 3 would have been better as an expansion) has a better story then DAO), KotOR.
Heck even Borderlands 2 with it's very simple story is better then DAO, your character has a better reason for progressing, the villain is just awesome. And he got a reason for wanting you dead you got a reason for killing him etc. All these things was lacking for DAO.

Modifié par freche, 19 novembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[Shinnyshin]

I think a lot of people have been dancing around some issues while discussing story without saying them outright. Bioware's recent games have been entirely character-driven narratives that have god-awful plots but REALLY good character development set in fascinating universes.

I feel like somewhere after Kotor and Jade Empire, Bioware fired all of its plot-writers and hired a cast comprised solely of character writers. Really talented character writers, sure. People who are great at thinking up interesting worlds certainly. But people who don't give a damn about plot.

And while I love good characters, I'd love to see a bit more attention paid to the very, very neglected plot.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 19 novembre 2012 - 12:30 .

[Foolsfolly]

Story is very important. This is obvious to everyone hear and probably everyone at BioWare.

That said, I don't think BioWare realizes how great villains are. In their more recent games if there's a central villain you never get the sense that they're a threat. And for some of those games there isn't a central villain at all.

Villains are powerful tools for a story. And I for one hope DA3 has a magnificent villain. Someone like Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York. Someone so evil you can't wait to see someone kick their teeth in... but at the same time you cannot help but love every goddamn second their on screen.

[Pzykozis]

I'd like to see more games without a villain, a story which poses a question for the protagonist and its their journey to answer it which comrpises the story. But that's wishlisting I imagine we'll see a strong return to some sort of nefarious big bad pulling the strings behind the war because people seem to eat it up, which is a valid avenue and is fun but meh.

[cindercatz]

@OP It's all about story, sure, but our story and our world building. I don't want wildly different final endings. I want wildly different details and paths getting there (like the origins and the five main branching quests in DA:O) with a lot of variable details that carry over like the epilogues.. and might never be seen again, seriously. They should figure out what's relevant to any upcoming game and only include those import decisions, and some cameos because I like them. I actually very much like the idea of plot flags just sitting there for a decade and then finally popping up in DA6 because somebody just had a really neat idea for them. That's cool.

That way we get more continuity, we get tighter individual narratives, and we get a lot of branching within them, a lot of character definition and internal reactivity, not a lot of random fetch and fight quests. I don't see any reason to sacrifice any plot branching or imports, just improve on the idea.

And yes, there's a tradeoff. I will always trade individual playthrough length for more branching and replayability. I always hope for six playthroughs worth. DA's the only series I'll replay that much, if they maintain or better the level of character customization and story reactivity we saw in DA:O. Story and characters and drama, but that needs to be a consideration.

edit: Canon.  Resetting canon is a killer for me. It's horrible. If that's what they eventually decide they want to do, I'd rather they just start a new franchise. Maintaining our personal canons through good use of the import system and variable worldstates is great. Set canon is bad for DA. Personal import good. Set canon bad.

Modifié par cindercatz, 20 novembre 2012 - 05:00 .