277 réponses à ce sujet

[kgav]

I don't know about anyone else but I really wanted one of those Desire Demons as a companion. Would have come in handy.

[ArathWoeeye]

I don't think it's fair to say "developers make eye candy for male gamers, who are the majority". Look at human mythology. Look at the figures of desire. About all of the time, they are females or feminine males. It's only fair that a medievalish world's fantastic figures follow a similar path.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I have no complaints about female roles in the game or the Chantry.



B.t.w. TheDauntelss...you are right. You really are shallow.

[Artillis22]

One thing to consider is that to the average human the female body is more artistically pleasing to the eye then the male body, even many females think so. That's not to say these women aren't attracted to men, it's just the female body to most seems to be a better work of art then the male body. And since the game developers are artists.....

[TheDauntless]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

I don't think it's fair to say "developers make eye candy for male gamers, who are the majority". Look at human mythology. Look at the figures of desire. About all of the time, they are females or feminine males. It's only fair that a medievalish world's fantastic figures follow a similar path.

What's an incubus?

[elys]

Artillis22 wrote...

One thing to consider is that to the average human the female body is more artistically pleasing to the eye then the male body, even many females think so. That's not to say these women aren't attracted to men, it's just the female body to most seems to be a better work of art then the male body. And since the game developers are artists.....

 I don't agree. Males have just different shapes and traits but are as artistically inspiring.
There is tons of really nice male arts, paint, statues etc....

TheDauntless wrote...
What's an incubus?

To say it simply, it's the male version of a succubus.

Modifié par elys, 08 janvier 2010 - 10:45 .

[philippe willaume]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

I don't think it's fair to say "developers make eye candy for male gamers, who are the majority". Look at human mythology. Look at the figures of desire. About all of the time, they are females or feminine males. It's only fair that a medievalish world's fantastic figures follow a similar path.

Well that is a big statement, the Geeck and roman did enjoy  a naked the male body and so did a few cultures in the far east.
 
If we stick to European civilisation seeing the woman body as the expression of carnal desire or temptation is moore rooted in religious and Victorian period. Ie late 19th century.
 
 
European medieval lore is very often celtic, wotan/odin-in mythology saga and oral traditions recycled with chritianity or more preceisly to roman catholic canons (as the reform did not happened yet)
and women were seen as between two opposed views.
 
The Aristotelian and follow up tends where woman is  incomplete  in boddy and soul compare to man, plus the fact that eve is suborned to Adam and on top of that she is the one that succumb to temptation and then tempt and Adam lead him astray. (Lilith is apocryphal as far as RC is concerned)
And the virgin Mary which is a very important figure in ME. Related or not to that is the position of women in celtic christianism due to the celtic roots.
 
If you look at the early medieval text, the women are “beautiful and fair” but they do have other qualities as well. It is vey similar to man who is “well made in body” but his as well a supper knight
As well women seldom use their appearance to get the guy.  It is pretty much a two sided affair that transcend carnal desire.
For exemple in Tristan and isseult, when the love potions wears off they discover that they love each other and even when Tristan marries the exact replica of IIseult aptly named Iseult au blanche main he still fall for the real Iseult.
In fact desire in macn can be just caused by him without any attempt of the women, ie pretty much every bady that capture the main lady or Uther who take the shape of Igraine Husband, his ally, so that he can have his way with her.  And Igraine did not do anything to get Uther to do so.
 
The same goes for Lancelot and Guinevere/Gwenyfer, the barely morgasse/morgausse/morgana seldom use seduction the lead the knight astray. However in the latest installement as in Mallory 15th cent “death of Arthur” seduction/sex temptation starts to be a more common weapon but it is still only a tool from many.
 
 

 

[Xandurpein]

The whole idea that women are "the fair sex" and that women are fundamentally a "different sort" than men ("the weaker sex") is an idea that doesn't surface in western culture until AFTER the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages women are simply seen as essentially "lesser beings" of the same sort, rather than being a "different sort" than men, an incomplete man as phillipe willaume wrote above.

For a really in-depth description of the difference between the old Aristotelean "woman is an incomplete man" and the later (17th century) "women are the weaker sex" try reading Thomas Laqeur "Making Sex"... and no it's academic and not bawdy at all.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 janvier 2010 - 01:25 .

[Lughsan35]

Mahumia wrote...

An incubus would actually be pretty cool... I would be up for that! And oh yes... make females walk in a normal way! >< I truely dislike the macho walk, especially on an elf :/

Sorry what? You're complaining that the women have a practiced male style of walking as a warrior would rather than a trollop trying to get someone into bed with them?

:whistle:Hypocrisy at its finest...

[ArathWoeeye]

I didn't really say there were no male figures of pleasure. I said that mostly it was females or feminine characters.

I'm no expert, but from several paintings, statues and mythological content that most of the "male" desire figures are feminine.



When you compare the number of female/feminine desire figures to the masculine ones, I'm pretty sure the ratio would favor the former greatly.





Plus... I do think this subject is overrated. It's not fair to call it sexist. I mean about all games have one model for creatures. There is one model for shades. There is one for genlocks, hurlocks, emissaries etc. There is one model for ogres. There is one model for abominations. There was one model for, say, glabrezu in BG2. This goes on like this. One side had to be chosen and they chose female, which has been a more common choice in any time, any where (There may be exceptions but they are exceptions). Should male people be offended because Loghain and Howe, traitor characters are males? Or Darkspawn usually look masculine?

I'd say -lorewise- the demons could take different forms and those were one of the forms. That would be my guess though. Either way, don't think it should be a big issue really.

[philippe willaume]

The thing that really amazed me is the change of status when the woman is married or is a widow. At least in medieval time before the late 1400 early 1500.

(Christine de Pisan books are really good read about the female position in society.)



As well there is a certain dissociation between the female body and temptation in medieval time, probably partly due to the belief that you were responsible of your acts in front of god



For example, “ the good war bad war” speech is really an explanation as to why each soldier has to commit a mortal sin by killing an other Christian.

Because in the medieval belief “my king told me so” would not wash with st Peter and so wouldn’t “she tempted me.”

Phil

[Xandurpein]

It's not easy to really read actual myth and legends in a form that predates the 18th century. Many stories are either written or changed through the ages to incorporate the later views on women. If you were to look at real medieval itterature or art you would probably find, like phillipe writes, that there is not a lot of desire figures tied to the female body.

If you look at really ancient art then my guess is that there is about equal share of fertility symbols being figures with exaggerated erect male genitalia or exaggerated female bodies.

/Edit. It's kind of hard to really know really about Medieval art, as so much of art is dominated by the Church who really preferred to ignore the whole idea of sex for anything but dutifully done to get children. I do know that in later Middle ages clothing sometimes becomes more "sensual", and there are mentions of various fashion as being "scandalous", but this seems to apply both to male and female attire.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 janvier 2010 - 02:34 .

[philippe willaume]

I think what we are trying to say is that you are looking at historical pieces with 21st century mentality and values.



Saying that picture of woman through history served the same purpose as modern “gentleman literature” is like saying that Cesar “wars of Gauls” was dan browns “angel & demon” of classical Rome.



To put it another way we have not found a medieval playboy yet… I know that absence of proof is not proof of absence, will you say. But well



We do have erotic literatures and drawing mainly from the 14th-15th century. It is much more explicit that what you would expect. (Basically badly draw porn still) but again the purpose is not the same as in modern porn.



Now this is no an uncommon depiction of a Madonna. This is Agnes Sorel (mistress and advisor of Charles VII of france)

http://en.wikipedia....uet_Madonna.jpg

or

http://en.wikipedia....dam_and_Eve.jpg

or

http://en.wikipedia....us_and_Mars.jpg



That being said, it is not because I do not agree with that part of your argumentation that I disagree with your point.



It is totally out of proportion to call the desire demon sexist.

[ArathWoeeye]

Nudity and the choice of sex are different things to consider too. It'd be a mistake to say "nude female" as a choice of devs. The choice of devs is a female + nude. If they chose a male, it'd be nude too.

[Creature 1]

ArathWoeeye wrote...
The choice of devs is a female + nude. If they chose a male, it'd be nude too.

Ahem . . . devs?  Those of us who like guys too would like some fan service. 

[TheDauntless]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

I didn't really say there were no male figures of pleasure. I said that mostly it was females or feminine characters.
I'm no expert, but from several paintings, statues and mythological content that most of the "male" desire figures are feminine.

When you compare the number of female/feminine desire figures to the masculine ones, I'm pretty sure the ratio would favor the former greatly.


Plus... I do think this subject is overrated. It's not fair to call it sexist. I mean about all games have one model for creatures. There is one model for shades. There is one for genlocks, hurlocks, emissaries etc. There is one model for ogres. There is one model for abominations. There was one model for, say, glabrezu in BG2. This goes on like this. One side had to be chosen and they chose female, which has been a more common choice in any time, any where (There may be exceptions but they are exceptions). Should male people be offended because Loghain and Howe, traitor characters are males? Or Darkspawn usually look masculine?
I'd say -lorewise- the demons could take different forms and those were one of the forms. That would be my guess though. Either way, don't think it should be a big issue really.

The male depictions you describe may appear feminine to some people these days, but they were quite masculine when they were the standard. I'm no expert but weren't the old Greeks famous for sculptures and pottery that could be anatomically flattering and outrageous for all sexes? Each was made to be beautiful, each one was an appreciation of the body. Males as well as females.

Well, why would any str8 guys feel offended about predominantly male darkspawn when there are so many other male characters inhabiting strong and or positive roles to balance this out? Female characters were not given the same consideration. Far too many useless crying victims and or prostitutes were among them. Too many to be counteracted by the presence of less than a handful of strong women.

Desire demons and broodmothers, in this case, are tiresome caricatures of evil females who exist because even the Fade and the Blight were written so as to carry out unreasonable gender-roles. They portray terrible and "easily accepted" extremes of the spectrum as temptress vs uh, "maternal," figures respectively and exclusively among the cast of villains. They are still identical for they are badly exploited to fulfill gender stereotypes.

Desire demons should be shapeshifters who appear to someone as whoever his or her deepest wish would be manifested as a person. If somebody wants a lover, a child, a long-dead friend or relative, or all of the above then a desire demon could be any of those things up to the extent of its power over its victim's perceptions. The demon who gave the templar a cozy nuclear family in the Circle Tower wouldn't necessarily have to be the ultimate desire to each person in the party to save confusion(and the dialogue already makes it clear what that templar likes to daydream about), which brings us to the demon's natural shape if it has one. Well, it must in order to keep such a scene going. But have it remain as a bad joke that we've seen so far? No. Have it be similar to the other demons who are ugly and horrifying to those of us who don't live in the Fade.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 08 janvier 2010 - 06:28 .

[Creature 1]

TheDauntless wrote...
Female characters were not given the same consideration. Far too many useless crying victims and or prostitutes were among them. Too many to be counteracted by the presence of less than a handful of strong women.

Meh, maybe my standards are too low.  Being a normal person, I'm sure if I got dropped in Ferelden I'd end up a useless crying victim or (eep!) prostitute.  So women in these roles doesn't bother me.  There were a lot of useless crying male victims as well in the game.  Male prostitutes, not so many, except for at the Pearl of course.  Although I suppose Zevran could be considered a prostitute. 

Whether a woman (or man) should be looked down upon for being a prostitute is another question.  According to sociologists everyone exploits their sexuality as an economic resource.  Just many women choose to trade exclusive sexual access to one man in exchange for various benefits. 

Since you class useless victims with prostitutes and contrast to strong women I suppose the implicit assumption is that prostitution puts a person in a position of weakness.  Very often yes, it's a decision made by people in a desperate situation, but sometimes it's a decision chosen by a person due to profitability, and sometimes the prostitute may be the one in the position of power.  So I don't think you can draw that conclusion all the time. 

[Iris562]

I ask you this: How many of the world do you think knows that an Incubus is not just the name of a band? Maybe 10%. Everyone knows what a Succubus is! xD I think that's their logic, seeing as "Desire Demons" were made to be the Succubi of the DA world.

[TheDauntless]

Creature 1 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
Female characters were not given the same consideration. Far too many useless crying victims and or prostitutes were among them. Too many to be counteracted by the presence of less than a handful of strong women.

Meh, maybe my standards are too low.  Being a normal person, I'm sure if I got dropped in Ferelden I'd end up a useless crying victim or (eep!) prostitute.  So women in these roles doesn't bother me.  There were a lot of useless crying male victims as well in the game.  Male prostitutes, not so many, except for at the Pearl of course.  Although I suppose Zevran could be considered a prostitute. 

Whether a woman (or man) should be looked down upon for being a prostitute is another question.  According to sociologists everyone exploits their sexuality as an economic resource.  Just many women choose to trade exclusive sexual access to one man in exchange for various benefits. 

Since you class useless victims with prostitutes and contrast to strong women I suppose the implicit assumption is that prostitution puts a person in a position of weakness.  Very often yes, it's a decision made by people in a desperate situation, but sometimes it's a decision chosen by a person due to profitability, and sometimes the prostitute may be the one in the position of power.  So I don't think you can draw that conclusion all the time. 

Sometimes it's even out of love. Jessica Atreides was officially a bound concubine at the start of Dune. But she was her duke's partner in all things. The only woman in DA I can compare her to is Anora, the grieving widow who contributed as much as her partner did for the rule of their subjects, if not (certainly)more. They understood what it meant to fight, plot, kill, and risk death on behalf of their loves, principles, and responsibilities. The actual prostitutes in DA cannot compare to either of those two women. The damsels in Redcliffe who I lumped into my admittedly general definition of prostitutes were exclusively female out of sexism and homophobia. I'm not sure if they're also exclusively str8, but the fact that they're females exploited primarily for the enjoyment of some str8 males renders the question moot.

I can draw that line without hesitation in DA. I don't look down on the prostitutes for being prostitutes; I look down on BioWare for showing female victims to be so much more pronounced than male victims, and male conquering heroes much more prominent than female conquering heroes. Women more often in subordinate roles, men more often in authoritative roles. Who does that benefit?

I've read remarks of some people who speak ill of meeting "obligations" to special interests without their realizing that such obligations actually are fulfilled and then some, solely for the special interests of fanboys.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 08 janvier 2010 - 07:20 .

[Sandiz83]

Artillis22 wrote...

One thing to consider is that to the average human the female body is more artistically pleasing to the eye then the male body, even many females think so. That's not to say these women aren't attracted to men, it's just the female body to most seems to be a better work of art then the male body. And since the game developers are artists.....

This is somthing that many belive now days, if you make some reserch you wil finde that the old greecs puted the male body before the female body. what have counsiders good looking have allways  been different in other time periods.

[Behindyounow]

I think its more to do with:



Female gamer seeing female desire demon: Huh. Not my cuppa' tea, but whatever. *Moves on*

Male gamer seeing male desire demon: Please pass the brain bleach.

[Akimb0]

Sandiz83 wrote...

After have played this game in some weeks now, it' all ways make me wounder when i encounter a demon or somekinde of nature spirit (think the the lady in the wolf*s den)?

My girl friend saw me playing and was furius about the nudeness or sexism in the game. And i have to agree, many games out the are sexist.

Does someone feeling deferent tham me or do you agree on this??

That's the most ridiculous post I've read in ages.

Sandiz83 wrote...

Artillis22 wrote...

One
thing to consider is that to the average human the female body is more
artistically pleasing to the eye then the male body, even many females
think so. That's not to say these women aren't attracted to men, it's
just the female body to most seems to be a better work of art then the
male body. And since the game developers are artists.....

This
is somthing that many belive now days, if you make some reserch you wil
finde that the old greecs puted the male body before the female body.
what have counsiders good looking have allways  been different in other
time periods.

I think you'll find the Greeks were somewhat of an exception, as they advocated male/male relationships. Which is pretty unique in the "ancient world".

The whole idea of someone getting "furious" over pixels showing as much skin as a woman in an advert for soap is just mind boggling. Does she throw a tantrum whenever those adverts come on TV?

How on earth is showing skin on an ingame model "sexist "? I really think people shouldn't bandy about words like that without knowing what they mean.

Modifié par Akimb0, 10 janvier 2010 - 10:44 .

[philippe willaume]

@the Dautness

Female emancipation in the western culture dates from after the 2nd world war.
In france it took the WWI, 1.5 millions dead and 4-5 millions of crippled on 20 millions people population to start the emancipation of women because most of the male population was in dire straits (and they go the right of vote in 1948).
There is US book from the late 1950 ish how to be a good house wife that is a gem in sexism. Not far from the ancient Rome point of view of women.

I do agree with the point you are making, even though I do not agree with your argumentation of it.
Yes desire demon should cater to the character sexual orientation.
You description of the female population, albeit being heavy handed on sweeping generalisation, is quite astute but buy the same token and sweeping generalisation the male population is composed of spineless greedy self centred cowards.

Yet at then end male and female of both races join your forces for the final fight.

What I am trying to get at is there is not that many game that let you
Bat for the other team
And have strong women in position of power good and evil.

Yes you have a valid point but it is a bit over the top to label the game as sexist on those grounds.

If you take Tristan and Iseult or Roland in love, you could see it as being ultra sexist, I amen the heroin is abducted and wait for a manly man to rescue her. Pretty much you Hollywood flick.

But that would be missing that they are abducted by guys that buggers up half a dozen knights for breakfast.
It does miss as well, that they show great courage, intelligence and resourcefulness though the story.

For example, issolde when she is has to go trial by ordeal say that she did not have another man between her leg than the king and the leper that carried her across a wild river. (as you guessed the leper was Tristan in disguise). As long as the forces of arms is not used against her, she stands her ground is more than a match foe every baron or dwarf that want he downfall.

Or in roland the princess of Cathay, Roland loves interest, manage to flee her citadel under siege, if made prisoner by deception (my son is sick help me please), escape and outwit a sorceress to free Roland on 8 other knight all that on her own.

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 10 janvier 2010 - 02:47 .

[Crusader-Be]

U simply cant call a fat ugly overdressed woman a desire demon now can u?

Like the idea off the demon beiing the oposite sex off youre main character