277 réponses à ce sujet

[TSamee]

Far too horny for my liking (Oh. What skills. I am hilarious. Ha ha.)

[TheDauntless]

The whole idea of someone getting "furious" over pixels showing as much skin as a woman in an advert for soap is just mind boggling. Does she throw a tantrum whenever those adverts come on TV?

Actually. Why else do you think that soap commercials almost exclusively limit themselves to "pretty" female models? Because it is "safe" for males to view, and such things are "allowed" and in fact pressured to be exclusively female conditions of self-gratification and pride. In cases where males are advertised to, it is done with the company of a female model whose job is to be turned on by the supposed effects of the hygiene product on the male, and/or it is done to motivate females into buying for their male partners. The result? Cleanliness becomes a largely female-oriented realm in modern culture, and when males dabble they do so in the hopes of scoring a female or a job, whichever. Many people, but not all, allow this sort of conditioning affect them.

Why is it done? Sexism and homophobia. They're intertwined. In the media or otherwise, a male who enjoys making himself hot yet minus any consideration of female approval will be looked down upon and labeled(sometimes mistakenly) as gay or "metrosexual," because such males do not conform themselves to the traditional gender-roles which too many people draw their own identities from. For these latter people, someone who is experimenting or bold enough to be strong outside those boundaries is maligned for diminishing an establishment which many people find themselves unable to question. This is something which businesses are loathe to dismantle for the same reasons. It serves them.

I download whatever little TV I watch, so if that is no longer the case then please let me know. I doubt there's been any change.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:36 .

[TheDauntless]

philippe willaume wrote...

@the Dautness

Female emancipation in the western culture dates from after the 2nd world war.
In france it took the WWI, 1.5 millions dead and 4-5 millions of crippled on 20 millions people population to start the emancipation of women because most of the male population was in dire straits (and they go the right of vote in 1948).
There is US book from the late 1950 ish how to be a good house wife that is a gem in sexism. Not far from the ancient Rome point of view of women.

I do agree with the point you are making, even though I do not agree with your argumentation of it.
Yes desire demon should cater to the character sexual orientation.
You description of the female population, albeit being heavy handed on sweeping generalisation, is quite astute but buy the same token and sweeping generalisation the male population is composed of spineless greedy self centred cowards.

Yet at then end male and female of both races join your forces for the final fight.

What I am trying to get at is there is not that many game that let you
Bat for the other team
And have strong women in position of power good and evil.

Yes you have a valid point but it is a bit over the top to label the game as sexist on those grounds.

If you take Tristan and Iseult or Roland in love, you could see it as being ultra sexist, I amen the heroin is abducted and wait for a manly man to rescue her. Pretty much you Hollywood flick.

But that would be missing that they are abducted by guys that buggers up half a dozen knights for breakfast.
It does miss as well, that they show great courage, intelligence and resourcefulness though the story.

For example, issolde when she is has to go trial by ordeal say that she did not have another man between her leg than the king and the leper that carried her across a wild river. (as you guessed the leper was Tristan in disguise). As long as the forces of arms is not used against her, she stands her ground is more than a match foe every baron or dwarf that want he downfall.

Or in roland the princess of Cathay, Roland loves interest, manage to flee her citadel under siege, if made prisoner by deception (my son is sick help me please), escape and outwit a sorceress to free Roland on 8 other knight all that on her own.

phil

I spend a lot of time criticizing the things I don't like because while many people have gone and voiced thoughts for what I do like, no one has mentioned the things I didn't like. For example, Teagan and all the male party members were likable...after modifications. Zathrian was apalling but supremely performed. The human noble's father is another strong example. Yet they simply don't apply to this topic.

At the end, you have to squint to discern the females within the armor-plated forces. And they're not shown in battle. Throughout the campaign, many of them are sobbing wretches and or prostitutes who stand a great chance of resorting to their sexuality to bargain for help. Males? Not so much. Very often the extreme opposite. Thumbs down on that aspect.

I'm confused about the characters you mentioned. What stories are they from? Sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding the point you're trying to make with them.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:18 .

[Lenimph]

So? Isn't it sorta sexist that all the other demons are male and horribly ugly? Just saying ... They're demon's dont they have all the right to be sexist?

Modifié par Lenimph, 11 janvier 2010 - 03:25 .

[nubbers666]

easy 75 perct of gamers are guys guys only have girls on the brain so they add these half nude girls to increase sales i find it kinda funny if a guy is getting turn on by a game char its kinda sad

[TUHD]

/facepalm



Katie, you missed over half of the discussion here.

Where did the interesting discussion go?... Bled a bit dry. It's a shame :/

[Whisa]

TheDauntless wrote...

At the end, you have to squint to discern the females within the armor-plated forces. And they're not shown in battle. Throughout the campaign, many of them are sobbing wretches and or prostitutes who stand a great chance of resorting to their sexuality to bargain for help. Males? Not so much. Very often the extreme opposite. Thumbs down on that aspect.

Just snagging this bit out, but in every battle cutscene almost half the fighters are female.  Not that hard (imo, of course) to pick out, either.  This is ESPECIALLY true at Ostagar, where the amount of female soldiers in the cutscene/ around camp almost seems to be more than the amount of males.

For the women cowering at redcliff, I give you the multiples of males in prision and crazy/ tortured/ half-naked/ helpless examples in those prisions.  Especially at Howe's estate.  And then men at redcliff (minus the miltia, of course) have to be FORCED into action - they're just as helpless as the women.  The only difference is that instead of praying, they're in the bar (llyod/ benwick), hiding in their house (dyrim?  i can't recall his name - the dwarf thug), or getting drunk at home while not wanting to do anything to help his daughter himself (hi, annoying blacksmith).

For the women prostitutes at the pearl, there are an equal number of males.  I'm not sure where prostitues are making this game sexist as I can't think of ANY situation in which you'll have sex with a female that you can't have sex with a male in the same place.  Admittedly, the lack of being able to ask for kisses from male NPCs is there, but hearing a female ask for a kiss is (again, imo) a bit jarring when the person is a total stranger.

[Elessara]

Whisa ... you're correct, you can quite easily pick out the female combatants in Ostagar, especially during the cutscene when the fight begins.



Also .. while not a fighter, Anora is still a strong female figure. She's pretty darn manipulative and backstabby though. And don't forget Ser Cauthrien. And the Human Noble's mother is no push over. And Jarvia isn't standing around and wringing her hands either (she IS despicable though).



On another note, I like how they do plate armor in this game. They don't go trying to make the massive heavy plate armor mold into breast shape, it's fairly androgynous looking on a female char. I've always thought trying to feminize plate armor was a little silly.

[Whisa]

Elessara wrote...
On another note, I like how they do plate armor in this game. They don't go trying to make the massive heavy plate armor mold into breast shape, it's fairly androgynous looking on a female char. I've always thought trying to feminize plate armor was a little silly.

Warden armor + female = amazing.  mhmm.  Mostly because it's not all femalized and looks fully functional while also looking completely BA.  Leather, however..  on humans it's alright, but duster armor on a female dwarf?   

[elys]

@katie916:

If you cannot
- listen to a song
- read a book
- watch a movie
- play a videogame

Without feeling any emotion out of them, whatever the kind of emotion including sexual ones, that might be boring.

Just because someone might cry watching a movie, does not mean that person never cry in life.
Just because someone might enjoy sexual content in a game, does not mean that person does not experience
sexual content in life.

In fact it's more the contrary, many emotions you can get from a media is because you can somehow relate them to what you have experienced in life.

For example one that had never experienced the death of a beloved one, will probably not feel much emotion about same kind of event in a movie, while someone who had such experience will be more affected.

Furthermore the human brain does not work that way. It's not much more about the "reality" of what you see, but more about how you directly perceive the traits of the image in its context.
That's why comics and mangas can be fun to read, they have simplified and exagerated representation of lifelike objects, but still coherent from human perception, and can bring the same kind of emotion than real objects if the author's work is good enough and pleasing your tastes.
Now if one would suddenly meet a manga character in real life, with their oversized head and giant eyes, he will probably freak out because it will be out of context and perceived as monster.

If one can't immerse himself into a media to enjoy it, that's what for me is "kinda sad".

However I agree that since sexual feelings are about one universal and powerful emotion, it's of course overused as a hook.

But it's still a natural reaction to be eventually exicted by it, as legitimate as to laugh on one of the "not-real" companions banters.
 
Now you may be not be excited at all by sexual content in media, which is perfectly fine by me.
But I don't find right to stygmatize other players who enjoy it.

Dang that reply was just being about a one liner initially

Modifié par elys, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:14 .

[TheDauntless]

Whisa wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

At the end, you have to squint to discern the females within the armor-plated forces. And they're not shown in battle. Throughout the campaign, many of them are sobbing wretches and or prostitutes who stand a great chance of resorting to their sexuality to bargain for help. Males? Not so much. Very often the extreme opposite. Thumbs down on that aspect.

Just snagging this bit out, but in every battle cutscene almost half the fighters are female.  Not that hard (imo, of course) to pick out, either.  This is ESPECIALLY true at Ostagar, where the amount of female soldiers in the cutscene/ around camp almost seems to be more than the amount of males.

For the women cowering at redcliff, I give you the multiples of males in prision and crazy/ tortured/ half-naked/ helpless examples in those prisions.  Especially at Howe's estate.  And then men at redcliff (minus the miltia, of course) have to be FORCED into action - they're just as helpless as the women.  The only difference is that instead of praying, they're in the bar (llyod/ benwick), hiding in their house (dyrim?  i can't recall his name - the dwarf thug), or getting drunk at home while not wanting to do anything to help his daughter himself (hi, annoying blacksmith).

For the women prostitutes at the pearl, there are an equal number of males.  I'm not sure where prostitues are making this game sexist as I can't think of ANY situation in which you'll have sex with a female that you can't have sex with a male in the same place.  Admittedly, the lack of being able to ask for kisses from male NPCs is there, but hearing a female ask for a kiss is (again, imo) a bit jarring when the person is a total stranger.

I stressed that they're not shown in battle. They're only shown standing among male troopers at Ostagar before the fight, at camp and in cutscenes. But to actually engage in combat? No. They're only shown marching within the Circle and Dalish forces, but not among Redcliffe's and Orzammar's armies. No women were ever shown engaging in combat except for one female Dalish archer in the very first cutscene of the game, and her split-second contribution was depicted in a way that was easy to miss.

Not a single one of the male prisoners throughout Howe's estate nor any males at Redcliffe could be asked for sexual favors as payment. The females could. Disparity? One gender supplicates, the other dominates, where DA seems to be concerned. The male Grey Warden prisoner is even shown making his own violent, successful bid for freedom. And IIRC, the weeping templar prisoner was in lyrium withdrawal. The two noble-born male prisoners remained arrogant and unbowed in the presence of strange killers. Notice there is also a difference in the way they couch their missions for us. Some but not all of the males demanded goals which had impacts on the campaign, but the females flirted/wept for personal matters which did not count for anything. The smith, dwarf, barkeep were all foolishly confrontational. No idea if I missed anyone else, but it seems to me each of those male characters has, or had at one point, lived by their choices and not on the whims of a stranger. Notice, if you will, they don't approach us with needs. Dwarf and smith want us to get out. Smith is too proud and too drunk to show "weakness." The knight can do with or without the blessings, no tears either way. The mayor(?) has no personality to speak of. The nobleborn prisoners demand from us, and we need from them. The males didn't beg. The females were made to.

I've no issues against the prostitutes in the Pearl. It is their profession, they exhibit no gender disparities, and their madam even went to great lengths to safeguard all her workers. It is the females of Redcliffe who are made to consider prostituting themselves, and only the females who are made to do this, out of manufactured desperation that disgusts me. It sounds like you do not take advantage of these characters, but if you look around these forums you'll find plenty who do, and most don't even consider that type of situation to be unhealthy. More than a few are actually proud to identify with those damsels. I suppose if someone draws strength from that type of publicly submissive gender-role they would be keen to uphold it.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:37 .

[Whisa]

Keep in mind that 90% of the fighters at Ostagar were where you can't see them. Of those left, some were indeed female. So trying to find a strong female fighting presence.. might as well argue that they're being biased against redheads (assuming you could see hair) because those you can see aren't enough redheads. Or tall/ short enough. The bulk of the army is elsewhere, and I do believe some of the soldiers on the bridge are female.





As for redcliffe, maybe I didn't go far enough, but the MOST I could get from them were kisses. How is a kiss prostitution, exactly? And they never said "well if you do x for me, I'll give you a kiss for a reward!". You had to ask them for one very specifically. Bella, of course, extends that, by offering to kiss everyone if you come back, but I'd say that's just an exaggeration based on the likelihood of it happening. That happens a lot in life, though the situations we use are a bit different for the most part (if x wins, i'll give you ALL $5, if z happens I'll do [some exaggeration of the original premise]). The fact that it's extended to kissing an entire bar is not, in this case, her being a prostitute. Nor offering sexual favors. And yes, on some male characters I asked for the kiss reward because I was playing those males as extremely open to the idea of sex with anyone. I think one of them went through everyone in the party, the pearl, and whatever kisses/ sex he could get outside it, so it wasn't an odd thing to have that dialogue for him. And before you start claiming things, my latest female noble was the same way.





I've already conceeded in my previous post that it is a bit unequal that females can't demand kisses, but I also pointed out that it's a bit more odd for females to do the same thing (I still can't picture a woman doing something for a man and asking for a kiss from a pretty man in return, but that's probably my hang-up).





Gray wardens are superior fighters and it should not be surprising that they can break out of a jail by duping their captor. You, as the PC, can do so as a female as well - it's simply somethign that, in game, a trained fighter is able to do. Makes getting out of jail much easier for all concerned rather than going through a cutscene of him distracting the guard with flourishes and picking his pocket and waiting for him to escape and... no, he's strong enough to just kill him and take the key, as are female wardens-to-be in origin stories.



Vaughn (misspelled, probably..) is shown to be a pouty, insecure child even without doing the origins. As well as an extremely offensive one to his rescuers. He's certainly not "unbowed" - he's just very stupid. Refuse him and he has a tantrum and backs away from you. Don't refuse him and he resorts to bribery to get you out. Given the amount he's giving you, he's far from arrogant and unbowed... he's been broken down by simply being in the jail enough to give you 40g just to get out. There COULD be an interaction with him flirting with femPC, but really, how flirty can you work yourself up to be when you're a nobles son who's been stuck there for years? And considering how we saw him in action in City Elf origin, his flirting wouldn't be able to take place without a couple guards and a strong backhand.





The smith wanted promises. You had to promise before he'd stir himself instead of actually trying to do something himself. He'd rather get drunk and do nothing than try to go into the castle himself.. that seems pretty weak to me. His only whim is to get drunk and forget about his daughter rather than work toward rescuing her.



The barkeep is a complete coward who you have to intimidate into helping. Otherwise, into the cellar he goes (just like the women in the chantry!) to hide. His "whims" that you speak of are determined by his cowardice, not any action on his part.



The dwarf is a strong fighter, as most males of dwarves are. Comparing the dwarves to the humans is, imo, a foolish thing. I know I brought him up earlier, but further consideration made me realize that dwarven men are MADE to not trust the strength of humans and (seeing as how he has a sword and knows how to use it) warrior cast is made to know how to fight all sorts of nasties very well. His reaction, of all those you can push to fight, is the most natural - he has no reason to even think humans CAN fight. His house, on the other hand, has a very nice chokepoint and a very angry warrior dwarf + two others ready to destroy anything on the other side.





The knight can do with or without, yes, but it's not for him that he wants it. He wants it for his men, who claim to need the "protection" they need. Either way, he personally is fine because he doesn't need the symbols. If you confront him about them not actually being blessed, he says it's fine because they're a symbol of the maker, which makes them powerful to the men simply because of that.



The mayor, however, I'd say does have something of a personality. You have to persaude him you can win. You have to force people to fight for him because he can't get it done on his own. He doubts that anyone can do anything about the problem constantly.. it's actually pretty depressing. Only afterward does he say that you know what you're doing and he didn't think they'd ever see morning again even after all you did for them. Try to conscript him and he clings to his town like mad, however. He's unwilling to do anything beyond hiding in his town.

[TheDauntless]

Keep in mind that 90% of the fighters at Ostagar were where you can't
see them. Of those left, some were indeed female. So trying to find a
strong female fighting presence.. might as well argue that they're
being biased against redheads (assuming you could see hair) because
those you can see aren't enough redheads. Or tall/ short enough. The
bulk of the army is elsewhere, and I do believe some of the soldiers on
the bridge are female.

No doubt those women who we saw marching, or armed and ready in the cutscenes and at camp, DID fight. However, BioWare's choice to leave that up to the imagination, and their choice to exclude females from dwarven and templar forces, speaks to an unwillingness to show women tearing up enemies. The female Grey Warden archer I spoke of may not have even been the one who fired the arrow. I seem to recall she and another (ranged?)male companion were running side-by-side. Yes, there are numerous instances of bloody melee in cutscenes. Some archery, some sorcery. But not one of those active fighters were women.

Wynne's handy victory over the demon in the Circle Tower does not count in this. It was bloodless. She is a companion mage. We know that female mages are no oddities for BioWare, but only because they wear dresses and do not engage in melee.

As for redcliffe, maybe I
didn't go far enough, but the MOST I could get from them were kisses.
How is a kiss prostitution, exactly? And they never said "well if you
do x for me, I'll give you a kiss for a reward!". You had to ask them
for one very specifically. Bella, of course, extends that, by offering
to kiss everyone if you come back, but I'd say that's just an
exaggeration based on the likelihood of it happening. That happens a
lot in life, though the situations we use are a bit different for the
most part (if x wins, i'll give you ALL $5, if z happens I'll do [some
exaggeration of the original premise]). The fact that it's extended to
kissing an entire bar is not, in this case, her being a prostitute. Nor
offering sexual favors. And yes, on some male characters I asked for
the kiss reward because I was playing those males as extremely open to
the idea of sex with anyone. I think one of them went through everyone
in the party, the pearl, and whatever kisses/ sex he could get outside
it, so it wasn't an odd thing to have that dialogue for him. And before
you start claiming things, my latest female noble was the same way.

All sexual favors count as prostitution IMO. Why only female npcs carry that option are reasons which are tied to sexism and homophobia, as I've mentioned before. Too many people tend to think badly of any male who would do the same as the dumsels because then "he wouldn't be a man" and it would be seen as "degrading," but it is somehow expected and even sympathetic if some female does it. Wrong. It is not dignified for anyone to have to offer sexual favors out of desperation, and even less so to force female characters alone to carry out such actions. DA's unfortunate theme is that men are women's superiors, and their constant assignment of disproportionate gender-roles speaks well of only consistency, if nothing else.

You were role-playing, no wrong in that. But that was not BioWare's intention when they created those dumsels. Look around these forums. Bella was even exploited in a trailer.

I've
already conceeded in my previous post that it is a bit unequal that
females can't demand kisses, but I also pointed out that it's a bit
more odd for females to do the same thing (I still can't picture a
woman doing something for a man and asking for a kiss from a pretty man
in return, but that's probably my hang-up).

Yeah, you have a hang-up.   You, at least, give voice to it where most people will not.

Gray
wardens are superior fighters and it should not be surprising that they
can break out of a jail by duping their captor. You, as the PC, can do
so as a female as well - it's simply somethign that, in game, a trained
fighter is able to do. Makes getting out of jail much easier for all
concerned rather than going through a cutscene of him distracting the
guard with flourishes and picking his pocket and waiting for him to
escape and... no, he's strong enough to just kill him and take the key,
as are female wardens-to-be in origin stories.

It is well and good that both female and male PC Wardens can jailbreak themselves. But my focus is on the npcs and what they signify in DA's society. Someone who chooses to play a female PC can witness a female hero(or villain, either way extremely capable) acting as a fulcrum at every turn. Someone who chooses to play a male PC witnesses very few influential women, yet still very many influential men. Many weak examples of female npcs are given, compared to fewer weak males. This is a sexist move on BioWare's part. They do not admit it is "forced" or even offensive to create a mysoginistic world while pretending they are not, but BioWare and many posters will claim that doing anything else would actually be "forced" and offensive. Such people seem to be thinking solely in extremes. To "do otherwise" is not an automatic acquiesance to depict a matriarchal-society. To "do otherwise" is to simply create something which is not patriarchal/mysoginistic.

Yes, I know. Unfortunately millions of people's minds then go, "?????????"

Vaughn
(misspelled, probably..) is shown to be a pouty, insecure child even
without doing the origins. As well as an extremely offensive one to his
rescuers. He's certainly not "unbowed" - he's just very stupid. Refuse
him and he has a tantrum and backs away from you. Don't refuse him and
he resorts to bribery to get you out. Given the amount he's giving you,
he's far from arrogant and unbowed... he's been broken down by simply
being in the jail enough to give you 40g just to get out. There COULD
be an interaction with him flirting with femPC, but really, how flirty
can you work yourself up to be when you're a nobles son who's been
stuck there for years? And considering how we saw him in action in City
Elf origin, his flirting wouldn't be able to take place without a
couple guards and a strong backhand.

My point is that BioWare decided DA males must not exhibit the solicitations of prostitutes and beggars, that only females would. Now, I know players may choose to be cruel and even fatal to Vaughn. We may choose to be cruel to any number of npcs in Redcliffe and Howe's, male and female. But very many of those females are limited to their submissive lines, some tinged by sexual favors. The males are not characterized this way at all. The females are "helpless, desperate." The males strike out with "macho" rage.

Oh, I forgot about that city elf. I haven't been there in a while and for me he's easily the most forgettable. He begs, doesn't he? He may not offer sexual favors but I'm sure he cowers and begs. Easy. He's sub-human. He's fey to any human player who compares him to the human male prisoners. And he's always been a second-class citizen. Thus, he isn't a real man. These were not my judgments, but BioWare's projections onto most players. And they were certainly done in that order.

The smith
wanted promises. You had to promise before he'd stir himself instead of
actually trying to do something himself. He'd rather get drunk and do
nothing than try to go into the castle himself.. that seems pretty weak
to me. His only whim is to get drunk and forget about his daughter
rather than work toward rescuing her.

His motivations don't matter. Two possibilities: he was male so BioWare "needed" to make him unwilling to ask for help, plus belligerent and difficult as a bonus. Either that, or they had a proud, belligerent, and difficult minor npc on their hands who had a contribution of some worth to the campaign, thus their own criteria demanded the npc be male. I'm thinking it's the latter.

The barkeep is a
complete coward who you have to intimidate into helping. Otherwise,
into the cellar he goes (just like the women in the chantry!) to hide.
His "whims" that you speak of are determined by his cowardice, not any
action on his part.

He too follows that "proper" gender-role assigned to him. He had something he could contribute because he was male. He was proud, hostile, and difficult because he was male. He was non-intimate in every way to the PC because he was male. DA gender-role. Not my choice of doing things, but it is BioWare's criteria.

The dwarf is a strong fighter, as
most males of dwarves are. Comparing the dwarves to the humans is, imo,
a foolish thing. I know I brought him up earlier, but further
consideration made me realize that dwarven men are MADE to not trust
the strength of humans and (seeing as how he has a sword and knows how
to use it) warrior cast is made to know how to fight all sorts of
nasties very well. His reaction, of all those you can push to fight, is
the most natural - he has no reason to even think humans CAN fight. His
house, on the other hand, has a very nice chokepoint and a very angry
warrior dwarf + two others ready to destroy anything on the other side.

Same as what I said above. :happy:

The
knight can do with or without, yes, but it's not for him that he wants
it. He wants it for his men, who claim to need the "protection" they
need. Either way, he personally is fine because he doesn't need the
symbols. If you confront him about them not actually being blessed, he
says it's fine because they're a symbol of the maker, which makes them
powerful to the men simply because of that.

This one is a little different from the others. He was proud, but in a manner that enabled him to respectfully request aid. He was not belligerent or difficult, but I never got around to attacking his faith to test that. He was also non-intimate with the PC. Therefore to fit BioWare's criteria, male. For those reasons he was the most admirable sidequest npc in the village. Not because of his sex, but because he stood up to his responsibilities like Teagan, and even that local Revered Mother, did. I may not a fan of organized religions, but she was not behaving like some doomsaying zealot. I respected her candor when she gave her honest opinion about the knight's request.

The fact remains- BioWare demanded both the knight and Teagan be male because they weren't victims. The Revered Mother was the only female there who wasn't a victim, which is a point in BioWare's favor for allowing at least one. But the only reason the Revered Mother did not offer sexual favors to the PC(or to Teagan, as Isolde was so obviously trying to), was due to her age and her own priorities/beliefs as a nun. It is hard to say which of those factors came first, but the point is they relate to another difference between her and those dumsels: because she wasn't 18, the Revered Mother was not written to be needy like the dumsels were. It's been a while, though. If I'm wrong...

The mayor,
however, I'd say does have something of a personality. You have to
persaude him you can win. You have to force people to fight for him
because he can't get it done on his own. He doubts that anyone can do
anything about the problem constantly.. it's actually pretty
depressing. Only afterward does he say that you know what you're doing
and he didn't think they'd ever see morning again even after all you
did for them. Try to conscript him and he clings to his town like mad,
however. He's unwilling to do anything beyond hiding in his town.

I must've projected too much of my disgust over that depressing town onto him. I see he's not a complete dullard, but I still couldn't wait to be done with him. Technically he's similar enough to the other leaders. The Revered Mother was the only female of the 4 of them, but only because BioWare wrote themselves into a corner by requiring that all of Ferelden's Revered be female. I'm being too generous, really. Despite being a non-intimate and thinking female leader, she didn't get to assign the PC any job like the male leaders did. Female? With authority? Only if you bring a microscope to DA.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:05 .

[Kalfear]

errant_knight wrote...

heat2008 wrote...

Because the VAST majority of gamers in general are male, and it's sexy? It's not sexist, it's appealing to your target market.

Why is it a male can walk down the street topless but if a woman were to do so it's indecent exposure.

Well, there's appealing to your target market, and there's inadvertently making it likely that the target market stays that way rather than growing. At the same time, this game breaks some new ground for the genre in having lots of stuff that appeals to women, so I can't get too bent out of shape about it, especially when there are other games out there that I find so conceptually sexist that I won't even try them. That doesn't mean that it doesn't annoy me that the nature of gravity would ensure that my female character keep tipping forward and doing a faceplant. A sad thing, given that she'd be bound to break one of those little tiny arms trying to stop the fall. I won't put her in splitmail either. It looks ridiculous. The leather bra on the chainmail is bad enough. Actually, I find the leather rogue armor much more irritating than the demons. Am I really supposed to believe that these women would risk their lives for cleavage? They might as well put a bullseye on their chests.

Heat, its only illegal in United States. Here in Ontario, Canada, its perfectly legal!
In England Sunshine Girls in newspaper appear topless
In Brazil and elsewhere they have topless beaches

Just cause the USA says its illegal doesnt mean the rest of the world does.

Errent, I see nothing wrong with the armor and think you being overly nitpicky.

You want sexist Armor? Go look at female armor in Ultima Online, now that peice of leather covering was sexist!

Lelianna just looks awsome in anything she wears (or doesnt), dont hate her for being attractive!

As for the desire demons, as someone said before, they are DESIRE DEMONS. Go look in any books or what ever. Succubus (which is basically a Desire Demon) has always appeared topless (and bottomless in many places when not censored) and attractive as a FEMALE! 

Sometimes I think gaming companies do us a disfavor allowing female hero characters in these games as then the feminists start rallying and crying sexism and womens rights and yada yada yada. In the midevil times thats normally protrayed in fantasy settings, Women had no rights and were objects to be objectified. So it makes sence that a Desire Demon would be a sexy female that MAN would find attractive and appealing. There is nothing appealing about so guy demon walking around with his junk hanging out. Thats just the god honest truth!

As someone else has said also, most gamers are still men. Yes the gap has closed somewhat in last 19 years but not to the extent that developers going to program stuff they know would drive away their main customers. 19 years ago 98% of the customers were men, now its 85%. Big change in the numbersbut not so big that men will be objectivied like women are in the role of the Desire Demons.

And again, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the armor in DA:O. At least in this game it covers the breasts and other areas and you not just wearing a thong and halter top as armor. As someone that remembers REAL sexist armor, you should be happy for the changes that have been made! It could be (and has been in the past) much much worse!

PS: As someone thats read alot of history and lore about different creatures and what not, I appreciate the Desire Demons looking the way they do In Dragon Age Origins! Finally they fit the role the protraying. If only Bioware had been so open minded for the love scenes in game I wouldnt be forced to run a player made nude patch that grossly over does what should have been there from the start!

Forget having a male and female demon depending who the main hero is (what sex). Spend that time instead haveing a world wide release version and then a hacked up peice of censorship for American release!

Just say no to American Soccer Moms!

[Whisa]

TheDauntless wrote...



No doubt those women who we saw marching, or armed and ready in the cutscenes and at camp, DID fight. However, BioWare's choice to leave that up to the imagination, and their choice to exclude females from dwarven and templar forces, speaks to an unwillingness to show women tearing up enemies. The female Grey Warden archer I spoke of may not have even been the one who fired the arrow. I seem to recall she and another (ranged?)male companion were running side-by-side. There are numerous instances of bloody melee in cutscenes. Some archery, some sorcery. Not one of those active fighters were women.

Wynne's handy victory over the demon in the Circle Tower does not count
in this. She is a companion mage. We know that female mages are no
oddities, but only because they wear dresses and do not engage in melee.

This also might be a game limitation.  For a mass army that you can't interact with, I bet it's easier to program a bunch of males with 1 line than females with 2 lines and determine which should be where.  A bit shortcut?  Of course.  But shortcuts like that mean the game gets out quicker.  And dang it, now I want to go through the cutscenes again to see exactly which fighters were slashing when.  Another excuse for another playthrough?  I think so!  Ahem.  Anyway.  Most cutscenes that involve fighting aren't up close and personal enough to show faces (and faces are usually covered with helmets in such scenes) and female in plate is very..  non-feminine.  One of the amazing wonders of female plate.

Male mages meet the same standards.  They wear dresses and don't engage in melee.  I don't see how that makes it more feminine to do so for mages in general.  However, Petra and the other female will attack you in the tower as well, and Petra was said to be fighting prior to the appearance of the group.  It wasn't shown due to time differences, but it does show that she was involved in the defense of the tower, unlike the (male) templars who were literally created for such a thing.

All sexual favors count as prostitution IMO. Why only female npcs carry that option are reasons which are tied to sexism and homophobia, as I've mentioned before. Too many people tend to think badly of any male who would do the same as the dumsels because then "he wouldn't be a man" and it would be seen as "degrading," but somehow expected and even sympathetic if some female does it. Wrong. It is not dignified for anyone to have to offer sexual favors out of desperation, and even less so to force female characters alone to carry out such actions. DA's unfortunate theme is that men are women's superiors, and their constant assignment of disproportionate gender-roles speaks well of only consistency, if nothing else.

Yeah, you have a hang-up.   You, at least, give voice to it where most people will not.

Ah, I think we'll have to agree to differ on that definition, then.  A friendly kiss on the cheek isn't, imo, any form of prostitution especially in this context.  I think it's more a play on how things usually go (like Leiliana's epilogue "does the hero/ine get his/ her girl") in stories.  The man asks for kisses, they fall in love and get marired and have a happy life.  Now, obviously love and happy life aren't happening, but you can ask for a chaste kiss and beyond that, nothign is expected.  And when the one in the chantry (curse you chantry-girl, i can't remember your name!) is uncomfortable giving you a kiss, you can back-off.  That, to me, shows that it's a chose between the two and not something that's forced on either.  Beyond that, it's not like you told her you'd only save her brother if she kissed you afterward, so there's no expected payment.

Males, on the other hand, tell you from the beginning what they'll give you.  Any bargaining afterward is only to adjust the price up or tell them to forget it.  That, to me, would seem to speak of doing things for women out of kindness, but for men for profit.  A favor for a woman, but a man needs to have you doing a "job".  Even if it's the same job as the woman wants you to do, it can't be interpreted as such.  I'd call that a slap to men as well as women, but it cuts both ways at least.

And yeah, I wouldn't be able to do either.  But then, I'm not into romance and such, so trying to understand why people do things gets complicated

It is well and good that both female and male PC Wardens can jailbreak themselves. But my focus is on the npcs and what they signify in DA's society. Someone who chooses to play a female PC can witness a female hero(or villain, either way extremely capable) acting as a fulcrum at every turn. Someone who chooses to play a male PC witnesses very few influential women, yet still very many influential men. Many weak examples of female npcs are given, compared to fewer weak males. This is a sexist move on BioWare's part. They do not consider it to be "forced" or even offensive when they create a mysoginistic world while pretending that is not the case, but they and many posters would claim that to do anything else would actually be "forced" and offensive. They seem to be thinking solely in extremes. To "do otherwise" is not an automatic acquiesance to depicting a matriarchal-society.

Well, even in the party you've got influenctial women.  Leiliana, Morrigan, and Wynne are all very strong.  Ser Cauthrien is an example of a strong woman who doesn't need to be rescued.  Anora is as well.  Anora's servant is somewhat strong, considering her status.  The revered mothers are decently strong - try and defy the one in lothering.  No tithe, no Lieliana, and low persuade.  The only way to get her to move to your side is to convince her that three well-armed people (one being a mage) are going to descend on one old lady.  Falling to that pressure is understandable, even with the templars there (ignoring game mechanics, one sword-thrust or a few spells and she's gone before they can move).  The grand cleric at the landsmet obviously holds a strong sway over the landsmet as she's able to condemn a guy who for all appearances IS king for what he's done.  You've got strong women in the dalish, as well - your keeper in the origin, the next keeper in the treaties-clan, the two guards at the treatiest-clan, gheyna (to a degree).

Weaker males are everywhere, imo.  They just tend to be overlooked, as their interaction isn't so great and/ or they're not all in the same place.  But when the weaker females are easy to interact with and the stronger ones take a while to get to and/ or have little interaction, it seems more skewed than it is.  You could consider Alistair himself to be an example of a weak man, though he's stronger than some as he actually does get out and fight...  when you push him toward doing something.  He does raise a stink at things..  but backs down when you tell him what's going to happen.  Cammen is a shining example of a weak male who should be cowering in the chantry with the women.

My point is that BioWare decided DA males must not exhibit the solicitations of prostitutes and beggars, that only females would. Now, I know players may choose to be cruel and even fatal to Vaughn. We may choose to be cruel to any number of npcs in Redcliffe and Howe's, male and female. But very many of those females are limited to their submissive lines, some tinged by sexual favors. The males are not characterized this way at all. The females are "helpless, desperate." The males strike out with "macho" rage.

Oh, I forgot about that city elf. I haven't been there in a while and for me he's easily the most forgettable. He begs, doesn't he? He may not offer sexual favors but I'm sure he cowers and begs. Easy. He's sub-human. He's fey to any human player who compares him to the human male prisoners. And he's always been a second-class citizen. Thus, he isn't a real man. These were not my judgments, but BioWare's projections onto most players. And they were certainly done in that order.

Vaughn DOES beg, however.  He does plead.  He just mixes this in with trying to demand you to do something while pleading for you to take the money and let him out.  I think, however, that has to do more with his perosnality than simply him being a male.  He was locked into being a male because they needed a rapist for the origin they had in mind.  Had they not needed the rapist, he could very easily have been male or female.  The shopper in the market district has the same arrogance and I can imagine her acting the same way in the dungeon.

Ha, I forgot about Soris.  Yeah, he begs somewhat.  And in the origin itself, he wants to run away at every opportunity.  You, the PC, have to push him into doing something.  I've always wondered how he gets there in the non-origin settings..  maybe he does have some balls after all.  However, when he begs he does so in a pretty dignified way if I remember correctly.  Most of his dialogue is focused on what happened to the alienage and what had he done to them.

His motivations don't matter. Two possibilities: he was male so BioWare "needed" to make him unwilling to ask for help, plus belligerent and difficult as a bonus. Either that, or they had a proud, belligerent, and difficult minor npc on their hands who had a contribution of some worth to the campaign, thus their own criteria demanded the npc be male. I'm thinking it's the latter.

He too follows that "proper" gender-role assigned to him. He had something he could contribute because he was male. He was proud, hostile, and difficult because he was male. He was non-intimate in every way to the PC because he was male. Not my choice of doing things, but it is BioWare's criteria.

I'd argue that he was demanded to be that way simply because of the circumstances as well.  However, think of it logically: how many blacksmiths are females for humans?  And if it was a woman, why wouldn't she be in the chantry with the other women?  He had to be male because he was outside of the chantry, not because he was difficult or beligerent.  Even the women working (Bella gives evidence of this) are going to the chantry and are only where they might be because they have to be.

Llyod is, imo, anything but proud.  He's a blusterer - he tries to make up any excuse in the book as to why he shoudln't fight.  in fact, through his character they show that he's incompetent and uses Bella in what can only be termed as an abusive relationship.  Shortage of work means she has to put up with it, but you can throw the inn to Bella and she does just fine.  Now, is that to say that femPC should have had some dialogue that had him trying to hit on her, based on Bella's accounts?  Of course not.  However, coward that he is, he probably isn't going to hit on a woman that could gut him in a moment.  Not to mention that she may or may not have a male behind her who may or may not resent anything he might say to her.  Intimate?  He's probably ****ting bricks to try and make sure that he's not going to bother these people.

This one is a little different from the others. He was proud, but in a manner that enabled him to respectfully request aid. He was not belligerent or difficult, but I never got around to attacking his faith to test that. He was also non-intimate with the PC. Therefore, male. For those reasons he was the most admirable sidequest npc in the village. Not because of his sex, but because he stood up to his responsibilities like Teagan, and even that local Revered Mother, did. I may not a fan of organized religions, but she was not behaving like some doomsaying zealot. I respected her candor when she gave her honest opinion about the knight's request.

The fact remained that BioWare demanded both the knight and Teagan be male because they weren't cast as victims. The Revered Mother was the only female there still allowed to keep her own brain and stomach, which is a point in BioWare's favor for allowing at least one. But, the only reason the Revered Mother did not offer sexual favors to the PC(or to Teagan, as Isolde was so obviously trying to), was due to her age and her own priorities/beliefs as a nun. It is hard to say which of those factors came first, but the point is they relate to another difference between her and those dumsels: because of her status, the Revered Mother was not written to be needy like the dumsels were. It's been a while, though. If I'm wrong...

He doesn't say much if you ask him about it.  I haven't done the first dialogue with it in a while, but the second he does admit that he knows they're not blessed, but they ARE symbols of hte maker and would settle the men.  He's also clearly intimidated by the PC, male OR female.  He doesn't know what to address you, and if you're not human he gets even more confused.  He's also a man with a major battle coming ahead that he KNOWS he's going to fight in and probably isn't thinking "oh, hey, girl here..  let's see if I can get some pre-battle sex!".  Also, Alistair seems to indicate that the Chantry is just as restrictive of...  lusts as any real life religion has been.  And with Isolde being so religious and her knights being very keen to have symbols of the Maker, this could factor in pretty heavily

Teagan is, imo, something of a victim.  Sure, he can fight, but he's the Bann and stays in the chantry?  Something fishy there - with them so desperate, leaving "one guy" in there to protect them is utterly silly.  And useless.  A force overwhelms ~10 men outside, but Bann Teagan will hold them off with his jazz hands.  And Isolde..  jesus, Isolde.  I could write an essay of hatred about her.  However, I've never really seen the attraction that most people say is there at that point.  Oh, maybe she cares for him in a friend way, but I've never gotten the feeling that they had something going on.  She's very much a damsel in distress, but ANYONE in that situation would be.  It can't be Arl Eamon because that'd negate a lot of the story (and he wouldn't have invited an apostate in in the first place), so it has to be Isolde. 

The Revered Mothers are an interesting study.  They're quite powerful and seemingly chaste, but who knows what they're allowed?  We know templars can't have families, but is there a similiar ban on Revered Mothers?  Beyond that question, she's a very strong person.  She's not going to mislead people so they feel better - you have to have a decent persuade score to convince her that it'll help them fight better.  Try and say that outright and she'll tell you that she's not going to spread a lie because it'll make someone feel better.

I must've projected too much of my disgust over that depressing town onto him. I see he's not a complete dullard, but I still couldn't wait to be done with him. Technically he's similar enough to the other leaders. The Revered Mother was the only female of the 4 of them, but only because BioWare wrote themselves into a corner by requiring that all of Ferelden's Revered be female. I'm being too generous, really. Despite being a sexless thinking female, she didn't get to offer the PC any job like the male leaders did. Female? With authority? Only if you bring a microscope to DA.

Honestly, there's not much the revered mother *could* have you do.  The mayor is taking control of the militia, as is no doubt his duty as the mayor.  The knights are governing themselves.  I suppose she could have you..  I dunno, donate poulices or something to help heal the injured, or money.  But unless it was money, people would want to leave to get mats/ find them/ come back later with them and BAM!  town gone.  Whoops.  She's stuck by the fact that you can't leave town, which is a gameplay reason more than a male-female reason.  There's just nothing for her to do, unless afterward she wants you to cleanse the castle or something.  Except, of course, only Teagan knows you're able to get in fairly easily and will be going in to rescue him.

Modifié par Whisa, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:19 .

[MatronAdena]

Armour: Cultural symbolism vs Functionality.

A comparative to history, and modern viewpoints of skewed reality.
A. McDargh,Cultural Anthropologist, University of Edinburgh 

Armour in the ancient world came in two verities. Functional, and representative. While Armour itself came in countless forms, for both male, and female frames, not all of it was designed to " protect in all conditions"  and many were designed purely for the visual aid, and offered little if any advantage on the field.

One common misconception is that armour specifically designed for the female frame was non existent, another being that it was not made to represent the female form, or accentuate parts of the female form. 
Both these are incorrect.  While it is true that some cultures did not allow women to enter the battle at all, most had at one time not only allowed it, but depended on it. Even in the far east where many believe some of the strictest rules for women was in play they too had powerful, and highly respected female warriors such as the legendary Samurai Tomoe Gozan, who was said to have slayed 100 men with a single swipe of her Naginata from horse back.

In some cases, armour for both men, AND women were minimal at best...Perhaps nothing more than a shoulder pad, or arm guards...armour that covered only the chest, and left the abdomen exposed was not completely uncommon in any time or place. Granted this armour was typically reserved for archers, horsemen/women, chariot riders, or sometimes purely ceremonial, it did exist and was the most common in the middle east during the mid bronze age. Eventually the Greeks, Romans, even the norse developed armour for women that did in fact
accent the bust, and or exaggerate the feature ( this was also done for the males groin and still is done in many separated cultures)

full suits as seen in many games " more so heavy/chaos armour types" were considerable more rare in active
battle, these were actually more ceremonial/ sport armour, as it did not take long to discover that in battle they posed more problems than not.
Armour, as we think of it today was much less common in reality. Often the protection was minimal if any. This naturally differed culture to culture, and also the situations of a battle " Heavy armour should NEVER be worn in the mud, the samurai lucky enough to have armour would not wear it in the rain" light leathers, silks,
and chain was much more common.  And several cultures ( the various celt tribes for example) often fought nude ( men and women) . Several finds have pointed to women warriors, fighting with a single breast exposed by design.

When one really wants to start pointing out what is realistic, what can, and can't be done, one should consider this...If it has been done in concept today for games, movies etc , it was done and used over the several thousands of years before. It may not have caught on or lasted long, but it indeed has been done.

The concept of what is " sexual" and what is " sexist " has been largely blurred over the last few dacades. As a Woman myself, I find it rather upsetting that this is happening, as it does not aid anyone in any situation other than create hurt feelings, and unwarrented finger pointing and stresses.

I've already made my point about the whole " sexualized" demon and what not...I'd really prefer not to get onto the whole sexist issue too heavily as the meaning of that word has been so twisted over the years that there is no clear line anymore.




 

Modifié par MatronAdena, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:12 .

[Lughsan35]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Because the devs seem to think, sadly, that most game players are male. I don't know what the stats are, and it probably varies in different countries, but I suspect that while male players are in the majority it isn't by lots. And there's still vast numbers of female players.

And yet let's look at major demons in Play.

1) Mage origin Rage Demon non-determinant sex likely male as it has a male voice and is angry OMG sexism.

2) Sloth is male.

3) Desire demon leading up to the tower top 2(?) or 1? having seduced men

4) There an equal number of male and female demons in the fade in the tower in fact there are two females and three males one an ogre.  With SLOTH ending it all. SO that's four to two, but we can't count sloth twice or three times only once. So 3-2 male female.

5) Redcliffe is a female desire demon

6) The forest spirit is female. 

7) The demon you encounter on the road in the apprentice is male.  Again rage.

8) The demon you can accidently let go in the tower is male.

9) The demon in the DLC for the stone prisoner is female.

10) The demon you can encounter in the deep roads is male.

11) the SIX demons in the vials are all male.  


So no... the demons that MOST stand out are all female but MOST of the demons are non-descript or clearly male.

[Whisa]

You have to be careful with "male", Lughsan. A deep voice, while somewhat manly, is not necessary indicative that a demon is male. If you listen to the undertones, a lot of them have very masculine voices. However, as we are debating sexual form and not cultural gender, I'd have to dismiss a few of your demons.

1) I'll give you this as a half - in his human form he is male, but his true form is more of a monster than a humanoid.
2) Sloth is very androgynous. He could be either, really, and is probably neither in reality.
3) 2 of them, very clearly female forms. Both seducing males.
4) 3-2, correct here.
5) Correct, but seducing a male (is age important for demons?)
6) This spirit is female AND male, two sides of a single coin.
7) Ehh. Originally male, yes. However, with the mutation, I wouldn't consider it male anymore.
8) A collection of thoughts in fire form. Not male.
9) Correct
10) Masculine voice, monster form.
11) Again.. I'd consider them more able to be either than one or the other. However, the bodies were originally male (assumptions from the names), so I suppose they could be male.

So, really, I'd say that there's a lot of demons that have more masculine traits (deep voice, hyper-aggression [though I'd debate this as a typical male trait]), but are not male in form. The demons that do have a gender are, overwhelmingly, female. Even the demons that ARE males are very vague about being males or have changed to the point where you would not strip it and say "this is an example of a male human", but the female demons are pretty clearly female. With.. creepy deep voice undertones/ echoes that freak me out more.

Modifié par Whisa, 11 janvier 2010 - 11:14 .

[AsheraII]

Just for fun, let's say BW adds an incubus to the game..

-rl males playing a female character: "It's too smalllll!!!!!!"

-rl females playing a female character: "It's too biiiig! What were you thinking? I can't stop laughing when I see that... thing"

[Herr Uhl]

AsheraII wrote...

Just for fun, let's say BW adds an incubus to the game..
-rl males playing a female character: "It's too smalllll!!!!!!"
-rl females playing a female character: "It's too biiiig! What were you thinking? I can't stop laughing when I see that... thing"

And of course the small amount of males whom will envy the size. Me included 

[Lughsan35]

Herr Uhl wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Just for fun, let's say BW adds an incubus to the game..
-rl males playing a female character: "It's too smalllll!!!!!!"
-rl females playing a female character: "It's too biiiig! What were you thinking? I can't stop laughing when I see that... thing"

And of course the small amount of males whom will envy the size. Me included 

Actually its a large amount of small men envying the size   not me though...I's just about right.

[Herr Uhl]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Just for fun, let's say BW adds an incubus to the game..
-rl males playing a female character: "It's too smalllll!!!!!!"
-rl females playing a female character: "It's too biiiig! What were you thinking? I can't stop laughing when I see that... thing"

And of course the small amount of males whom will envy the size. Me included 

Actually its a large amount of small men envying the size   not me though...I's just about right.

I should have added [sarcasm] by the small 

[MatronAdena]

Depending on what culture you draw it from, a succubus, and incubus are both one and the same as the " spirit/demon" itself has no specific gender...but will take on the appearance of whatever it needs to.



In DA: most of the desire demons are seducing/enchanting Adult males...so it's only fitting to be a female...



now Connor...while male is not old enough to be physically attracted in that way, however... he is a child, and a child is more likely to let down their guard, and be more trusting of a female before they are of a male, so again the female form is more appropriate in those terms



just another spin to throw out there...or at least give merit to those who mentioned something earlier.

[MOTpoetryION]

Sounds mean but seems like someone had to make post just to please a girlfriend .
And as stated there is the lack of adding into the topic about any of the other demons. tsk tsk .
IMO i think they did a great job with the personalities of almost all the females in this game they stood up for themselves when being played spoke their mind. The demon was representing desire for god sake. and BTW do you wear blinders also when you go out .And i could be wrong but isn't
the game a fantasy : ) sorry bro i just call them as i see them and tell your girl not to squeeze so hard

edit : out of both a female is the more desirable  then a male is over all . they are just prettier to look at. 

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 11 janvier 2010 - 12:27 .