277 réponses à ce sujet

[countersubject]

Games are mostly developed and written by men and men are usually (with rare exceptions) sexist to some degree and combine their lack of interest in understanding women with a ready willingness to objectify them.

An excellent combination of platitudes and cliches.

[PuffyTail]

countersubject wrote...

Games are mostly developed and written by men and men are usually (with rare exceptions) sexist to some degree and combine their lack of interest in understanding women with a ready willingness to objectify them.

An excellent combination of platitudes and cliches.

I try

[Tirigon]

PuffyTail wrote...

Games are mostly developed and written by men and men are usually (with rare exceptions) sexist to some degree and combine their lack of interest in understanding women with a ready willingness to objectify them.

In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

I disagree. Not every man is sexist, and if a man does not understand women this is usually not because of lack of interest but because women are so mysterious sometimes...
Besides, the sky is not really blue, that is simply an illusion. Actually, it has no color.

[Ratnix]

SinYang wrote...

As I said, there are more women gamers than ever, and it is a good thing. But they tend to play casual games more than any other type of game. DA:O is not a casual game.

You would be wrong on this count, I spent years on NWN1 server which if anything has far more complex character "building" than DA has.. 75% of players on there were real women they understood what makes great builds far more than male players..

Cprgs have a high percentage of women gamers more than other genres...

Even FPS league games, since my old clan back in quake2 days consisted of 4 women, 4 men and that was back in 1999.

No i dont have any stats or proof, this from experience.

Exactly, you don't have proof. It is all from your personal experience.

Go and read all those pages from the google search about statisics of female gamers. There have been many of them done and a majority of them will tell you the same thing. While there are plenty of women who play games, A majority of them play casual games. Games like Neopets, the Sims all that type of crap. Does that mean that NO WOMEN play any other type of game? No it doesn't. It just means that more women play casual games than other types of games.

NWN1 is one game. and only 1 type of game. 1 quake 2 server. How many hundread or thousands of servers were/are there that had 0 women play on them? You don't have any idea because you didn't play on them.
I played on a COD4 server. There were maybe 9 or 10 women who played regularly, and easily 3 times as many men. That was 1 server out of hundreds.

[PuffyTail]

Tirigon wrote...

PuffyTail wrote...

Games are mostly developed and written by men and men are usually (with rare exceptions) sexist to some degree and combine their lack of interest in understanding women with a ready willingness to objectify them.

In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

I disagree. Not every man is sexist, and if a man does not understand women this is usually not because of lack of interest but because women are so mysterious sometimes...
Besides, the sky is not really blue, that is simply an illusion. Actually, it has no color.

Please note that I did not say that every man was sexist.  Although much like the sky, what gets reflected back when looking at the whole certainly *looks* like widespread and socially accepted sexism across the spectrum.

Also, women are "mysterious" in the same way that anything else is when you either don't know or don't care enough to learn more about the subject.

It's easier to just show all desire demons as naked females...easier from a coding perspective and definitely easier than trying to actually figure out what women might desire or cater to women as a group that might actually have desires worth fulfilling outside of their value as a sexual object to men.

Modifié par PuffyTail, 05 janvier 2010 - 05:31 .

[Tirigon]

PuffyTail wrote...

Please note that I did not say that every man was sexist.  Although much like the sky, what gets reflected back when looking at the whole certainly *looks* like widespread and socially accepted sexism across the spectrum.

Also, women are "mysterious" in the same way that anything else is when you either don't know or don't care enough to learn more about the subject.

It's easier to just show all desire demons as naked females...easier from a coding perspective and definitely easier than trying to actually figure out what women might desire or cater to women as a group that might actually have desires worth fulfilling outside of their value as a sexual object to men.

[irony]
What? That is NOT their meaning in life?
Now I´m shocked.... So, I gather, Freud was wrong?
Maker´s Breath....     
*goes to burn all Freud books, as well as everything else ever written about women, or sex*

Soooo.......
Women do really have wishes and desires? What might those be, if I may ask?
[/irony]

[Ubasti]

I am a student of literature, and I'm doing my bachelor's degree on a computer RPG. For that, I read parts of a recent study about female gamers. Yes, many female gamers play casual games (like solitaire, Sims etc.). But the study also revealed, that there is not so much difference in gender of what types of games people prefer, than in age. So the difference was greater in age, thus both male and female gamers after certain age start to play similar games and appreciate them more. Also, many female gamers are older than most male gamers, which makes most of the difference in choices and preferences.

I myself am a female, and belong also to the older gamers group, as actually seems to be the case with many of the gamers who play DAO (look at the age thread in these forums). So, the more there will be games like DAO, the more there probably will be female gamers, and also some of the 'oldies' will find this type of games to their liking. I myself could not play computer games when I was young since computers were a rarity back then, though I did have a video game (one of the earliest ones there were), but alas, games and computers at those times cost loads of money, and so I couldn't have any of that fun back then. It is a guess, but I think that this is the case of many older gamers around, at least those that lacked the possibilities to get games back when they were young. And many of us are probably also old PnP players, who have averted to video games.

And DAO is not a sexist game IMO. It is actually less sexist than many of the tv-series we get to see every night. I don't find nude desire demons or the Lady of the Forest offensive. Yes, there could be a strikingly handsome male desire demon (with a low voice that gives shivers to the spine I might add), but for me it's not a necessity. You can even persuade (or intimidate?) the demon to unlock the bloodmage powers without having to have sex with it, or so I've read from here.

I think why some woman (girl) might find DAO offensive is the fact, that us females are raised to think that such things are offensive. That we need to be 'good girls' or else we will fail in life. And then, if a woman is presented both sexual (aka near naked in this case) and strong, some might find that threatening. Even more in games, if one would compare DAO for example to the majority of the games out there, and then not play it to find out if the first impression was right or not.

Sex is not a bad thing, nudity is not a bad thing. It is what we think of those, and how it is presented. I don't think either, that the Lady or the desire demons in this game are presented as an offence to women at all. Actually if they'd be wearing clothes I'd be offended. It wouldn't feel natural to those entities at all.

Modifié par Ubasti, 06 janvier 2010 - 01:58 .

[novaseeker]

Sandiz83 wrote...

After have played this game in some weeks now, it' all ways make me wounder when i encounter a demon or somekinde of nature spirit (think the the lady in the wolf*s den)?

My girl friend saw me playing and was furius about the nudeness or sexism in the game. And i have to agree, many games out the are sexist.

Does someone feeling deferent tham me or do you agree on this??

Desire demons are shaped in the form of women because they are like a succubus, which is a female archetype.

I think that in general the game bends over backwards to not be sexist while portraying a medieval world -- very strong female characters throughout the story (Morrigan, Flemeth, Lei), a church which is completely the sex opposite of the Catholic Church (an all female priesthood, worshipping the maker's daughter and so on), etc.  You have to be looking with pretty colored glasses to think that the designers were making sexist design choices.

[Sialater]

Ubasti wrote...

I am a student of literature, and I'm doing my bachelor's degree on a computer RPG. For that, I read parts of a recent study about female gamers. Yes, many female gamers play casual games (like solitaire, Sims etc.). But the study also revealed, that there is not so much difference in gender of what types of games people prefer, than in age. So the difference was greater in age, thus both male and female gamers after certain age start to play similar games and appreciate them more. Also, many female gamers are older than most male gamers, which makes most of the difference in choices and preferences.

I myself am a female, and belong also to the older gamers group, as actually seems to be the case with many of the gamers who play DAO (look at the age thread in these forums). So, the more there will be games like DAO, the more there probably will be female gamers, and also some of the 'oldies' will find this type of games to their liking. I myself could not play computer games when I was young since computers were a rarity back then, though I did have a video game (one of the earliest ones there were), but alas, games and computers at those times cost loads of money, and so I couldn't have any of that fun back then. It is a guess, but I think that this is the case of many older gamers around, at least those that lacked the possibilities to get games back when they were young. And many of us are probably also old PnP players, who have averted to video games.

And DAO is not a sexist game IMO. It is actually less sexist than many of the tv-series we get to see every night. I don't find nude desire demons or the Lady of the Forest offensive. Yes, there could be a strikingly handsome male desire demon (with a low voice that gives shivers to the spine I might add), but for me it's not a necessity. You can even persuade (or intimidate?) the demon to unlock the bloodmage powers without having to have sex with it, or so I've read from here.

I think why some woman (girl) might find DAO offensive is the fact, that us females are raised to think that such things are offensive. That we need to be 'good girls' or else we will fail in life. And then, if a woman is presented both sexual (aka near naked in this case) and strong, some might find that threatening. Even more in games, if one would compare DAO for example to the majority of the games out there, and then not play it to find out if the first impression was right or not.

Sex is not a bad thing, nudity is not a bad thing. It is what we think of those, and how it is presented. I don't think either, that the Lady or the desire demons in this game are presented as an offence to women at all. Actually if they'd be wearing clothes I'd be offended. It wouldn't feel natural to those entities at all.

Thank you.  I completely agree.

[Veritasinpersonam]

I can't imagine what the ladies are complaining about since they get Teagan.

[Ubasti]

Sialater wrote...


Thank you.  I completely agree.

You're welcome.

And for Veritas: This is why we complain (meaning we want more scenes like in this fan fiction comic strip):
http://aimo.devianta...art-3-140980491

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

who knows maybe the guys at bioware had trouble designing the demons so they said.....hey lets just make a purple girl give her a weird helmet and...hmmmm..ooooohhhh...armor....what kinda armor....OH OH i got it....she will wear a thong YEAH YEAH

[Sialater]

Ubasti wrote...

Sialater wrote...


Thank you.  I completely agree.

You're welcome.

And for Veritas: This is why we complain (meaning we want more scenes like in this fan fiction comic strip):
http://aimo.devianta...art-3-140980491

Exactly. 

Great minds...

[TheDauntless]

novaseeker wrote...

Sandiz83 wrote...

After have played this game in some weeks now, it' all ways make me wounder when i encounter a demon or somekinde of nature spirit (think the the lady in the wolf*s den)?

My girl friend saw me playing and was furius about the nudeness or sexism in the game. And i have to agree, many games out the are sexist.

Does someone feeling deferent tham me or do you agree on this??

Desire demons are shaped in the form of women because they are like a succubus, which is a female archetype.

I think that in general the game bends over backwards to not be sexist while portraying a medieval world -- very strong female characters throughout the story (Morrigan, Flemeth, Lei), a church which is completely the sex opposite of the Catholic Church (an all female priesthood, worshipping the maker's daughter and so on), etc.  You have to be looking with pretty colored glasses to think that the designers were making sexist design choices.

I agree the female party members were strong, but they were also feeding into the same fanboy demands just as the desire demons were. The "hot young pair" had ridiculously skimpy outfits. Morrigan might skate by on the excuse of being a renegade who despised modesty and spent a lot of time shapeshifting, someone who never left her appearance to chance. It has more to do with pleasing fanboys than with fulfilling her story, but I can see how it can satisfy both needs. There were no npcs to compare her to. In comparison, Leiliana had no excuses. Male bards in gear identical to hers did not bare their stomachs or collarbones.

Seemed to me like Brother Genitivi and Knight-Commander(?) Gregoir were the most prominent and proactive representatives of the Chantry, and both were males.The women in the Chantry were gossipy parrots who were always wringing their hands. Persisting gender roles are tiresome, no matter how they're rearranged.

Armed forces of all the human and dwarven factions were shown to be predominantly male in DA. During gameplay these npcs were completely male. I also had to squint during battle cutscenes to discern female troopers here and there. No female soldiers were shown wading into bloody melee alongside the males. Only if this were BioWare's first stab at fantasy/medieval gaming would there be an excuse for that type of omission.

BioWare didn't reverse gender roles at all. They pushed gender roles back into their old stereotypes. Female heroes/leaders were absent, insane, long-dead, martyred, or in rare cases they were present they were barred from being human. Instead they gave us plenty of fool nuns. To say nothing of scanty female combat-wear and shrill damsels in distress.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 06 janvier 2010 - 08:33 .

[RockGnasher]

womens' sexuality is exploited to make quick cash. no one likes dudes jumping around in the nude. It's like the beluga whales or something. besides, people are all female, the males are there to be simple so that they are easy to select and drive evolution. men are tools. Women get preggers. our society is still somewhat primitive in its understanding of gender roles. etc. Though I have to admit I am sickened by media's exploiting idealized fertile women.

[Spitz6860]

RockGnasher wrote...

womens' sexuality is exploited to make quick cash. no one likes dudes jumping around in the nude. It's like the beluga whales or something. besides, people are all female, the males are there to be simple so that they are easy to select and drive evolution. men are tools. Women get preggers. our society is still somewhat primitive in its understanding of gender roles. etc. Though I have to admit I am sickened by media's exploiting idealized fertile women.

why would people buy this game for its sexual content is beyond my understanding, there is a thing called porn, and it's free. And i'm very dissapointed with how Bioware handled the sex scenes, i understand that it adds some realism to the dark fantasy, but underwear? lol, really? it's almost like they wish those scenes to be funny. can't you just play with the camera angle a bit and make it not to show private parts covered with underwear? i mean they do that all the time in the game. every time some NPC gives you something the camera zoom in to their face so they don't show the poor animated hand movements.

[elys]

Ubasti wrote...
......

Sex is not a bad thing, nudity is not a bad thing. It is what we think of those, and how it is presented. I don't think either, that the Lady or the desire demons in this game are presented as an offence to women at all. Actually if they'd be wearing clothes I'd be offended. It wouldn't feel natural to those entities at all.

Yup.

Succubus forever!  ( no, I'm not biaised )

[Barbarossa2010]

Let me illustrate why the DESIRE demon might be better represented by the female form:



There is a mythological basis (siren,etc) here and I think it would be best to not revision such a thing based on current cultural or social fads. Permit me to illustrate:



Morrigan (or another mage of your choosing-she's just the best for this illustration) enters the Fade to do combat with a Desire Demon (if you opted to save Connor).



Let's say the Desire Demon is revisioned into a hunky nude male...



Enter Morrigan into the abode of our newly fashioned Desire Demon...



Pan camera to Morrigan's face...



We choose Dialogue Option A:



"Begone demon...wait, what the...oh, are you cold demon?" Morrigan frowns in something that can only be described as nausea...



Demon: "Is this your attempt at humor mage?"



Morrigan recovers. We select Diaglogue Option B: "No simply an observation. You really should put on a loin to do combat with me demon. I do use a Winter's Grasp Spell love, and it appears you may shrivel to nothing at my first cast...or is this part of your plan?"



Demon: What plan mage?



Morrigan smirks. We choose Dialogue Option C: "To make me asphixiate by laughter?"



Begone!



There is no power in a revisionist version.

[Flecchi]

Guys and Gals the game is buggy enough that we don't need an error in the program that makes all your daemons look wrong because it didn't take your inputs correctly or just decided to alter it as it sees fit.



As for the "wtf why only hot naked chicks?" just take clothes off your male party members or if your a computer use wait for someone to do a re-skin. If your an X-box user (Like Myself) get ready to wait, as patches seem to be a non-point and the more things computer users want/desire will never make it to the more expensive ($10 more for the XBOX 360 version) yet not supported console.



Sex is used in everything, commercials, billboards, etc... It is a marketing tool anymore, and here they are just looking at their main demographic, and playing to it. I'm not saying there are not female gamers, but rather that the market is too small to just open end cater to.



With games when first being thrown out offering far more than they deliver anymore as the companies just wanna get the cart on the market and make money (See: Quantity is Job One) rather than take twice as long and lose interest but make a game the likes of which mankind will joygasum over and will be better than sex, chocolate, the second coming, and more drugs that was ever used in the seventies.



To software companies it has become standard practice to use "patches" to fix known errors that were glazed over or swept under rugs so that the title or product may ship. Windows is bad about this, and is the forefather of patching makes perfect.



I've rambled, so I'll cut it down a bit, with a song lyric "You can't always get what you want..."

[Ubasti]

TheDauntless wrote...

BioWare didn't reverse gender roles at all. They pushed gender roles back into their old stereotypes. Female heroes/leaders were absent, insane, long-dead, martyred, or in rare cases they were present they were barred from being human. Instead they gave us plenty of fool nuns. To say nothing of scanty female combat-wear and shrill damsels in distress.

Actually this is not true. There was Shianni, for example. And Flemeth, even though she was in a way a pretty stereotypical witch. There was Ser Cauthrien. And Anora, whom I actually liked. Lets face it, women do things differently. If most of the women in the game would've been acting like men, that would've been worse. Being a strong, independent woman doesn't always mean that the woman has to behave like a man, although it seems that is quite often expected in our society.

And why are the chantry clerics fools? Just because they believe in the Maker, and try to bring comfort to people? Was Mother Theresa a fool? Chantry clerics do not get much space in the game, that is true, but then again, your comment shows, that such a character wouldn't be very much liked.

This is a computer game, used to escape reality and to have fun. Same as most movies, novels, music etc. If people want to see games that are different, I suggest you turn toward those independent game makers, smaller companies' products. Some of those even have all these awesome 3D graphics that sometimes seem to be the most important thing to gamers nowadays.

And what comes to the fact, that there isn't enough female gamers for the market, well, the game companies would be stupid not to try to make the women their market too. I mean, half of the population in the world is women, and that means money. For me DAO is an example of a game that is going to the right direction. I love it, it is one of the most addictive games I've played since BG2. And I don't mind that women sometimes were less armour than men. Actually, I would like to see the Dalish armour version for men to be a loin cloth. It is a fantasy world, and I have long ago learned not to demand a fantasy world (especially in games) to be an exact portrait of the real world, or even an idealized one. Besides, characters wearing an armour that reveals the stomach don't really rely on that armour to protect them, they probably have lot of dexterity to dodge hits. The plate mails and such in this game look real enough even when worn by a woman.

I was actually suprised, that this game did in fact have so many believable women in it. All the characters seemed so real, that they actually could exist in the real world (both men and women). Well, Morrigan was a bit over it though in some situations (but not because the way she dressed, I actually pretty soon forgot her outfit completely after playing for a while with her in the party).

To be completely honest, I myself like to see the feminine shape scantily dressed. Because it is beautiful. If it comes in a shape of my main character dressed in the Dalish armour, all covered with blood after a hard battle, all the better. I very much like to wear the Dalish armour, much more than the other light armours in the game, simply because it is prettier. Yeah, I'm a woman, after all. 

Edited to intensify the sentence of the plate mails on women in the game. 

Modifié par Ubasti, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:30 .

[Flecchi]

Scanty clad female wear, I take it none of you have put heavy armor on your female chars? It's not anime heavy armor, no it's full on mega-kega-plate that hides the softer delicate curves and instead of saying "I'm not a high priority threat." it walks up kicks your aggro sensors in the balls, bites your ear, and then says "Real enough for ya, ****boy?!"

[Kalfear]

welp I liked the desire demons. More traditional character of them. I just wish Bioware had as much backbone for the love scenes with women.



Saw nothing wrong with the desire demons looking desireable.

[YunDog]

In the game you can a play a heroine that saves the world



what greater role can a female have



my wife likes this game but you wont find her playing BF2, Totalwar or CoH



so based on a sample of 1 - I propose the game is ok for women

[Herr Uhl]

Damn history for having scarce feminine warlords *shakes fist at totalwar*

[YunDog]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Damn history for having scarce feminine warlords *shakes fist at totalwar*

ha ha ha ha 

call