50 réponses à ce sujet

[stenorman2001]

 Just thought I'd throw out a few ideas for the reasons why ME3 ended up with so much controversy and how they could be avoided in DA3. I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to be negative about the DA series and it's been really good so far, I'd just hate to see another series I really like go down hill.

** Spolier alert for ME3 **

1. Don't make DLC that contains content that should be part of the original game.

Mainly I'm talking about the Leviathan and Extended Cut DLCs that introduced content that directly influenced the result of the main story. If these had been part of the original game, then players would have been introduced to the Catalyst and have an understanding as to what it is before it suddenly appears at the end of the game. This would have prevented, or at least signifigantly reduced, the ending controversy.

I know DLC is an important selling point for Bioware/EA but I think you can introduce content that works well isn't required to understand the storyline. The previous content in DA and DA2 I think did this quiet well, extending the story but not being required for players to understand it. In other words, I should be able to buy the game and play it through without feeling like content was deliberately left out that I'd later have to pay for in order to understand the game.

2. Don't force players into multiplayer in order to achieve an ideal expierience in singleplayer.

We all realise now that EA won't publish games that don't contain multiplayer. I personnaly think that's a terrible idea but that decision isn't likely to be changed so we have to hope for the best.

I would implore DA3 developers not to make multiplayer an essential part of the story though. Having to play multiplayer in ME3 just to achieve an ideal outcome in singleplayer makes me feel like the developers were so desperate for multiplayer to work they had to force players into it. The sad thing is of course that ME3's multiplayer is quiet good on it's own so the developers didn't need to be worried about it. In short, if you have to integrate multiplayer so tightly into singleplayer to force gamers to player it, it probably wasn't that great to start with and needs to be re-thought. If achievements or events that occur in multiplayer will enable players to receive a better experience in singleplayer, give players the alternative of achieveing the same outcome through additional quests in singleplayer.

3. If story lines need to be resolved, make sure they are. Don't leave players hanging.

This is particularly important in regards to DA2 since the original plans to resolve the story have been scrapped. DA did a great job of this with the ending slideshow and text. There is nothing worse as a player than to work through a game and have no outcome at the end. It would be like reading a book with the last couple of chapters missing. The book would not be received well and neither will a game. If content was planned for DA2 hopefully some of it can be integrated into DA3 to help explain 'what happened next' for Hawke.

4. Don't make promises that aren't 100% set in stone.

Managing expectations is a huge part of any business and I think this is really where the ME3 team let themselves down. Saying things like (I'm paraphrasing) 'there won't be A, B, C endings' and then having users experience just that really hurt Bioware's and the series' reputation. I, like many players, would love to see information about DA3 and what is going to be in it, but any information needs to be carefully managed and if something is said that later changes, be honest with your fans and tell us what changed and why.

In summary, ME3 was overall a great game, once you took the DLC into account. Make sure the game can be played as a whole without the DLC and be understood by a player. I'm looking forward to DA3 so I hope this advice can be taken on board.

Definitely open for discussion if other users have anything else to add.

[UrgentArchengel]

Seems about spot on. These should be considered.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Unfortunately, I'm 99.9% sure that first one is going to plague DA3 (as well as the infamous Day One DLC). The problem is it's EA that's responsible for these kinds of decisions, not BioWare itself. We all know how EA rolls.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 18 novembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Battlebloodmage]

There are new contents that being worked on after the release. Is there proofs that Leviathan being withhold rather than added as additional content? The EC is free, so Bioware doesn't get any money from it. It was mostly for the fans.

I do agree with your points generally though.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 18 novembre 2012 - 06:15 .

[Nonoru]

1. Likely to happen.

2. Is very likely to happen. But it's no big deal if it's any close of M3 MP.(which didn't require much really) As long as they don't into competitive MP, it should be fine.

3. Is not really relevant since DA isn't a trilogy and we'll get more games.

4. I'm sure Bioware(all teams) are well aware of that and won't make the mistake. Even though people are already begging for infos, i saw Gaider and few others saying to wait until information is released.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

I expect BioWare to continue making mistakes with point 3 and 4.
Point 3, because they hope people will continue to buy their next sequel using unresolved story lines.
Point 4, because they're known to have great ideas but fail to execute those ideas with satisfying result, for example the idea of showing changes through time and space with frame narrative..

[Navasha]

1. To me this is a perception problem on the players side. I want DLC to be significant to the game. It absolutely should add something meaningful to the storyline. I won't be buying horse armor, or some weapons pack to make the game easier. That is not what I want from DLC. Saying that DLC belongs in the original game is a completely wrong statement IMO. These are either new ideas or ideas that were left on the cutting room floor. They never would have been in the game if DLC development team didn't pick them up and finish/make them.

2. Again, as long as the single player game isn't sacrificed any resources and multiplayer can bring in even more revenue for the game series to continue, I don't have a problem with it being added. Yes, it should be optional, and for the most part I even considered the MP in ME3 optional.

3. Can pretty much agree here. Cliffhangers are ok, if you are guaranteeing a sequel. Just don't come out and say this will be the last DA game made and then leave cliffhangers.

4. A games design document/production plan is more than likely an evolving entity. There is probably a lot that the designers WANT to do that ends up getting scrapped, changed, edited, etc. by the time a game nears the end of the development cycle. The only way for them to do as you are asking here is to release almost zero information about the game during development. Only after the game is solidified and in its debugging/polishing stages are you going to hear from them about anything at all. Is that really what the fans want? Not to hear anything at all about a game until just a few months before release?

[The Night Haunter]

Extended Cut is free so that isnt making them money, but the idea of finish the product before shipping it is valid.
I played ME3 with and without Leviathan and the experience felt just as complete without Leviathan. I also played without Javik once and that felt fine too, so if the story feels complete without the DLC then thats how it should be.

[Fredward]

This is only DAI related if you stretch for it, also I feel compelled to remind everyone that the ME and DA were made by different teams. Doesn't stop them from learning from the others' mistakes but still. xp

[kewldewd33]

In regards to #3, Bioware has always had problems resolfing story lines. Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic 2 ended with several cliffhangers, so I was looking forward to the third one. Instead, we got the MMO SWOTOR, which takes place 300 years later.

[EmperorShepard]

I agree with 1, 2 and 3 but not 4

If they cant make promises that arent set in stone. They wont ever speak of the game until 2 days after gold

Thats the only time a feature is really set in stone.

[Nightdragon8]

EmperorShepard wrote...

I agree with 1, 2 and 3 but not 4

If they cant make promises that arent set in stone. They wont ever speak of the game until 2 days after gold

Thats the only time a feature is really set in stone.

I agree and disagree. The promises that where made where of specific things, and really if the game is in that much flux then really they shoudn't even mention it.

Basicly they should keep it general. Like "DA3 is going to have Multiplayer" that much is set in stone. But we dont know what kind of multiplayer it is. I mean for all we know it could be Tower Defense. Or a RTS/TPS hybrid. or just third person. 

see it was vauge. And really should only make reports about things that "Will be in teh game" 

I mean a good ME3 type comment translated into a DA universe would be "Player will be able to pick from multiple races!!" And then at the end only being able to pick human.

Which in this case makes the above statment a lie. Because it will get peoples hopes up and incress the "Hype" level of the game.

[Sable Rhapsody]

kewldewd33 wrote...

In regards to #3, Bioware has always had problems resolfing story lines. Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic 2 ended with several cliffhangers, so I was looking forward to the third one. Instead, we got the MMO SWOTOR, which takes place 300 years later.

KOTOR 2 was written and developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not BioWare; the only thing the two games really share from a dev perspective is BioWare's Aurora engine.  Baldur's Gate, the original KOTOR, and Jade Empire all tied their storylines up nicely.

[Nefla]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

This is only DAI related if you stretch for it, also I feel compelled to remind everyone that the ME and DA were made by different teams. Doesn't stop them from learning from the others' mistakes but still. xp

That's the reason I went into ME3 with excitement and hope after DA2. "Well the ME team has NEVER done me wrong, this wont be like DA2." In many ways it was even worse.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Forced emotions in an RPG is a terrible idea.

[paul165]

I'd tend to agree with all of these - well put.

I'd also add:

Don't do an equivalent of EMS or at least don't display it in game as it is incredibly immersion destroying

Make choices matter for more than numbers on a screen a different choice should give a different mission or perhaps different choices branching off it.

[chalzey30]

i personally think bioware did a great job with ME#3
think about it, yes the actual ending choices were A,B,C, ect
but the other promise they made was that "the players choices will determine the galaxy"
and i think they did a great job with that one. think of all the different ways the galaxy could be?
is wrex the leader of the krogan? or is it wreav?
is bakara (eve) alive?
how did things work out with grunt?
did you cure the genophage?
and these options are just related to the krogan!
the state of the galaxy is very different for every playthru.

and as for the multiplayer impacting the singleplayer, i think it was a great idea.
how many games have you seen the online multiplayer die out after a couple of months because people have moved onto another game? but implementing this syetem it allows the multiplayer to live as long as ME3 is relavent, instead of moving onto othe multiplayer games, like COD-BO2.
rip on me if you want, but i think bioware did a great job.

[AlanC9]

stenorman2001 wrote...
1. Don't make DLC that contains content that should be part of the original game.

Mainly I'm talking about the Leviathan and Extended Cut DLCs that introduced content that directly influenced the result of the main story. If these had been part of the original game, then players would have been introduced to the Catalyst and have an understanding as to what it is before it suddenly appears at the end of the game. This would have prevented, or at least signifigantly reduced, the ending controversy.

Neither of those had been written at the time the game shipped. So what, exactly, are you telling Bio to do here? "Don't ship games without a satisfying ending"? OK, but how do you put that rule into practice?

[Sanunes]

1) This is all about perception of the player themselves. I don't consider From Ashes or Leviathan to be important to the game, they are all about a little more story that doesn't have an impact on the main game themselves. The way BioWare approaches DLC is that they want to tie it to the primary game so people are interested in completing the game and I personally like it, so it has some flow throughout the game.

The funny thing is I was more annoyed at The Exiled Prince because it felt more important to the story then any of the DLC from Mass Effect 3, but that could be just how I am remembering it, since I only played it once.

2) Multiplayer doesn't have an impact on the single player, it just gives the option of skipping secondary missions. Yes they made a mistake and didn't properly calculate the amount of points required to get the "breath ending", but it has been fixed in the Extended Cut.

3) The only reason why that happened in Mass Effect 3 was because they were ending the Shepard story line and I don't think that is happening with Dragon Age 3 because they haven't kept the same protagonist and haven't advertised the Mage vs. Templar as a trilogy like they did for Mass Effect.

4) The problem is when a developer as BioWare says anything these boards are taking it as a promise even if they don't intend it to be. The best thing is that BioWare says nothing, but you see what these board are like there are posts almost demanding BioWare start talking about the game now and if what they say now even if they phrase it as "we are thinking" or "we might include" people will quote those posts when its not 100% in the game that way.

[Heimdall]

On the subject of EC, that wasn't something Bioware was planning to release until the ending backlash. So I don't think that really counts.

[frostajulie]

make an ending that allows the player to feel like they won and all their playtime actually mattered. While this does not have to be what many snarky players call a disney ending it does need to make the characters player feel like they achieved a glorious and epic victory. Failure to deliver on this point is complete failure to learn anything. That being said if Bioware is worried they are unable to deliver on this point (which is a stupid and baseless worry since they did it before see the end of ME2 and DAO- ANY ENDING and the end of ME1) then maybe they should be sure to include a disney ending option for fans who don't play games to feel sad helpless and depressed.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

1) No cut game content
2) Equal treatment for all the characters. In ME3 Liara was the only one that the devs actually invested proper time with...
3) Do not kill fan favorites over a cutscene ...like ME3 did with Thane Krios & with Legion...Legion is an software he could have copy + paste into another platform but no...
4) Do not cheapen an enemy / character / faction ... Kai Leng, Cerberus, TIM
5) Make the story sensible & plausible... Within 6 months or less Cerberus transformed from a almost wrecked organization into a powerful galactic force
6) Do not reduce morally & ethically gray characters into a typical bad guy..TIM in ME3...
7) Do not introduce a totally new lore, new concept to the game in the last 5 minutes...The Starchild
8) Do not have pathetic side quests...Like the scan & fetch
9) Do not mess the lore up so badly..Like they had powerful anti Reaper weapons like Thannix Cannons, Javelin missile & they were fitted to almost all ships yet somehow we still need Crucible
10)Do not cheapen the game & combat mechanics..Sync kills
11)Please allow us to mod Dragon Age ...Like we did with DA1 & DA2

Modifié par The Sin, 18 novembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

[Kail Ashton]

lol a list at the height of entitled decadance, do you even live in reality with the rest of us?

Breakdown~!
1 - so basicly no story dlc ever, lol good luck with that

2- yes heaven forbid bioware give people an optional reason to try out the multiplayer given what a sh!tfit tempertantrum everyone had, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to coerce you into trying it if you didn't swear to hold your breath til they made it single player only, no one to blame but yourselves on that one

3- so basicly no ongoing plots, just one shot everything in a game and carry absolutely nothing over into the next game, cause continuity? cliffhangers? enjoying seeing where the threads of story go? needing more than one game to tell a massive epic story? nope! all self contained cause why even have an ongoing series then? might as well be a new IP each game

4- don't demand details and preasure developers into commenting on something they couldn't eventually add to the game, once again your fault, not biowares