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Lessons to be learnt from Mass Effect 3


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#26
paul165

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Kail Ashton wrote...

lol a list at the height of entitled decadance, do you even live in reality with the rest of us?

Breakdown~!
1 - so basicly no story dlc ever, lol good luck with that

2- yes heaven forbid bioware give people an optional reason to try out the multiplayer given what a sh!tfit tempertantrum everyone had, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to coerce you into trying it if you didn't swear to hold your breath til they made it single player only, no one to blame but yourselves on that one

3- so basicly no ongoing plots, just one shot everything in a game and carry absolutely nothing over into the next game, cause continuity? cliffhangers? enjoying seeing where the threads of story go? needing more than one game to tell a massive epic story? nope! all self contained cause why even have an ongoing series then? might as well be a new IP each game

4- don't demand details and preasure developers into commenting on something they couldn't eventually add to the game, once again your fault, not biowares


It's that word again where's my Princess Bride quote?

1. No story dlc required to explain the main plot I think was the thrust of the argument. I don't think anyone disagrees with LotSB or MotA.

2. So people don't like MP so they should make it compulsary? That's your argument do we need to discuss how flawed that idea is?

3. No ongoing plots if the game is supposed to resolve those issues eg this should see the end of the Templar/Mage conflict.

4. Right because I'm sure all those quotes from gaming magazines were all "fan pressure" and hadn't been approved by marketing at all /sarcasm.

There are a whole load of things I could puit here but I won't but I would suggest you read the argument presented in the OP fully before commenting next time:innocent:

#27
Kail Ashton

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lol should take your own advise instead of being butt hurt over how i don't delicately phraise things or just ignore what i say, then we can both not give a damn in peace

#28
Salaya

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I agree with every point here. Although, even don't liking day 1 dlc, I enjoyed how Bioware dealed with Dragon Age dlc -much better than Mass Effect dlcs, in my opinion.

What I find specially aggravating, and I really hope they don't do again, is lying with multiplayer. ME3 was a great kick in the *** in this topic.

#29
Rawgrim

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Here is a lesson: Don`t say the game will have 16 different outcomes, when you only mean 3.

#30
fchopin

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My lesson to be learned from ME3 is great game but not really an RPG.

If they can make games like ME3 but make them more role playing then Bioware will have games that will be winners in sales and talent.

#31
White_Jedi

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At this point I just hope the game won't feature an ending that divides/polarizes the fanbase. I don't think it will be possible to please both those who liked the more strategic combat of Origins & those who prefered the more action oriented style of DA2. I think we will se more varied locations than in DA2, though perhaps not as much as some would like.

#32
Shinnyshin

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A lot of the things here I'm seeing (like the don't do X to my favorite character list) are more things you don't like rather than lessons. Which I can fully understand disliking, but aren't exactly the things of which lessons are made.

Instead, why don't we look at the specific design decisions/experiments executed in ME3 and judge whether or not they worked? We all know that Bioware tests designs and concepts in one game that it's thinking of using in another. Here's my contribution:

Did the Kirkwall/Citadel experiment work?

In the last two Bioware games, the designers have made the very obvious decision to move us into one location, one hub. This is a pretty extreme departure from the Bioware norm, which averages 4 hubs per game. KOTOR, DAO, DAO:A, ME1, and ME2 all had four pretty sizable hubs each, if I remember right. And it's been a long time since I played it, but I remember NWN having 4 hubs. In fact, that became known as a pretty constant part of the Bioware formula. The last two games--huge, polished, high-budget affairs (DA2 and ME3) featured one central hub from which you ventured out to accept missions. Do you think this change had a positive effect on the game?

I'm strongly opposed to the shift, by the way. STRONGLY. Considering a large part of Bioware's strength is their ability to weave an interesting universe that your PC gets to interact with in a variety of places, confining us to one place makes for a much less immersive game. Exploration of the Asari corporate world (Ilum), the Krogan homeworld, the Citadel, and Omega brought us four completely different, fully fleshed out and engaging parts of the ME universe, each strengthened by the contrasts available. Having just the citadel in 3 meant that we had one place which seemed far blander than any of the four I just listed, as it had nothing to distinguish itself. On the other hand, I'd imagine it's much quicker to program and saves a lot of money. Plus in theory we could establish a solid connection to that one place instead of being travelers.

I think discussions on what lessons we can take from a game would be MUCH more productive if we focused on specific design aspects/decisions such as this. Other examples include Bioware's transition from plot-driven narratives to much more character-driven narratives over the last 4ish games. The quality of Bioware's story writing has gone down dramatically over the last 5-10 years. Dragon Age and most of the ME series didn't really have a plot at all. On the other hand, they had EXTREMELY strong character development. You could say that's what both game series were completely about. Do you agree with that decision?

What about the idea of time progression over a story? KOTOR, DA, NWN, and ME1 had very non-linear progressions in which you could visit whichever major plot points you wanted in whatever order you wanted. ME2 and DA2 had an interesting system in which the story was broken into acts but we could do plot-quests from each act in whatever order we wanted. JE and ME3 were completely on rails. What do you feel the pros and cons of the ME3 model were? The obvious pro is that it's much easier to weave a full, compelling storyline if you have fixed plot points at fixed times. On the other hand, ME3 didn't really have a storyline--really, we could have gone to each species in a completely different order and it would have changed nothing. We could have gone to the Asari, then the Salarians/Krogans, then Turians, then the Quarians/Geth. Given that they didn't make use of the more fixed structure we were forced into, I feel a much looser structure would probably have been better for 3 (and allowed for much more interesting DLC), but I could see how one might argue differently.

So instead of focusing on matters of opinion and whether we liked specific parts of the writing--which is an area that we pretty much will have no control over ever--is there any chance we could look at decisions that reflect design philosophy?

#33
Bernhardtbr

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Rawgrim wrote...

Here is a lesson: Don`t say the game will have 16 different outcomes, when you only mean 3.


Don´t think it will be that difficult to make. To be honest the only reeeeeeeally important canon in the previous 2 games is whether you made a child with Morrigan or not, so that makes things easier (if save imports will exist), unlike ME (save Collectors´base or not, revive Rachni or not etc etc)

The real lesson learned is to add more depth to the games, specially regarding combat and inventory. ME 3 was a less shallow shooter than ME 2 but could still be improved.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:37 .


#34
Liamv2

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This thread will not end well

#35
Rawgrim

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Bernhardtbr wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Here is a lesson: Don`t say the game will have 16 different outcomes, when you only mean 3.


Don´t think it will be that difficult to make. To be honest the only reeeeeeeally important canon in the previous 2 games is whether you made a child with Morrigan or not, so that makes things easier (if save imports will exist), unlike ME (save Collectors´base or not, revive Rachni or not etc etc)

The real lesson learned is to add more depth to the games, specially regarding combat and inventory. ME 3 was a less shallow shooter than ME 2 but could still be improved.


Quite right. But if they are going for a shooter\\action game, why call it an rpg i the first place? Its misleading.

#36
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

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If I'm understanding things correctly, isn't this going to be another Mage V. Templar game? Isn't that what turned a lot of people off with DA2?

#37
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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1. It wasn't.

The EC was added for the whiners. It wasn't planned. It wasn't necessary. As for Leviathon, I have no idea what happened in it and I probably never will. And my ME3 experience is not marred at all.

2. Valid.

3. Don't recall any unresolved storylines.

4. Don't recall any PROMISES that weren't fulfilled. Of course, that may be because I'm not so silly as to ascribe comments on an internet forum as "promises."

#38
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Rawgrim wrote...

Quite right. But if they are going for a shooteraction game, why call it an rpg i the first place? Its misleading.


Because it isn't just a shooter-action game. It's an RPG.

You play, define, a role.

Simple enough.

#39
Fiddzz

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kewldewd33 wrote...

In regards to #3, Bioware has always had problems resolfing story lines. Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic 2 ended with several cliffhangers, so I was looking forward to the third one. Instead, we got the MMO SWOTOR, which takes place 300 years later.


We didn't make KOTOR2

#40
Robhuzz

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The EC was added for the whiners. It wasn't planned. It wasn't necessary. As for Leviathon, I have no idea what happened in it and I probably never will. And my ME3 experience is not marred at all.


You didn't miss much. Just some vague attempt to retroactively foreshadow the catalyst nonsense. But after the EC I didn't really expect bioware to add anything but more nonsense in future content. Looking at the extra catalyst dialogue they added in the EC...

Modifié par Robhuzz, 19 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .


#41
Wulfram

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1. What you're really asking is "Please make the game contain everything it should contain", which is fair enough, if more than a bit tautological.

ME3 was badly lacking in foreshadowing of the various ending stuff. But I don't think that was down to any malicious plot to sell the Leviathan DLC. Rather it was because most of the game was written without knowing what the secret of the reapers actually was.

2. Yeah. It seems like Bioware, or at least some of the Bioware people, have got the message on that.

3. There's a reasonable desire to leave things open for a sequel. But you need to provide a strong enough ending to balance out the sequel hooks, which is kind of tough.

ME1's ending was successful about this - there's a big sequel hook with the fact that the reapers are coming, but it still feels very much like a complete story in itself. But most Bioware endings since then have been pretty bad.

4. The "promises" about the ending were given late enough that things were set in stone. This wasn't a case of premature release of iformation

I think the thing that led to the disconnect was that the writers thought that EMS actually mattered and that people would encounter the non-perfect endings. But because the EMS was turned into a stupid mess by things like multiplayer and planet scanning, the bad endings didn't really come into play and thus only the 3 choices counted for the player.

#42
deuce985

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Blair Brown wrote...

kewldewd33 wrote...

In regards to #3, Bioware has always had problems resolfing story lines. Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic 2 ended with several cliffhangers, so I was looking forward to the third one. Instead, we got the MMO SWOTOR, which takes place 300 years later.


We didn't make KOTOR2


Haha. Definitely needed to set that straight. KOTOR 2's final half of the game was an absolute mess. Shame too because it was almost better than KOTOR...

#43
Rawgrim

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Quite right. But if they are going for a shooteraction game, why call it an rpg i the first place? Its misleading.


Because it isn't just a shooter-action game. It's an RPG.

You play, define, a role.

Simple enough.


Really? It was like that in the first game. in the 3rd game I mostly got auto-dialogue. Felt more like Gears of War, than an rpg. I had zero control over Shepard in ME3. the only thing i got to decide was the tone of a conversation.

#44
Bfler

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Because it isn't just a shooter-action game. It's an RPG.

You play, define, a role.

Simple enough.


I can do the same in f.e. Jedi Knight and this is considered as a pure shooter.

Modifié par Bfler, 19 novembre 2012 - 08:30 .


#45
Fast Jimmy

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I think the OP tells some great tales of caution, even if others have some valid refutable of individual points or topics.

The one thing I find disturbing in this thread is 'If DA3 has X, then I won't buy it.' Which is fine, except the features being mentioned are impossible to determine unless you play (and presumably, buy, the game).

For instance 'I won't buy the game if MP is forced.' Well, the only way it was forced in ME3 was in regards to the endings. And if you have found out that the endings are only better if you beat the game with MP, chances are you have beaten the game (and, hence, bought the game). Or if the game forces your player into a certain course of action. This could not be the case until the final scene of the game (again, as in ME3), so you would have played (and bought) the entire game.

I realize people can play games without buying them (renting or playing a friend's copy, etc.) but the general thrust is there. And we can't trust professional reviewers to discuss these things objectively in many cases (such as GI or IGN who stated the endings were great and would have no negative effect on the experience for gamers), the recent trend of review bombings on Metacritic make it sketchy at best and then the developer themselves deny there was ever a problem in the first place (like the repeated claims that the Breath/Destroy Ending was possible without any MP or outside content from a Save import).

So, my question to those people is... how will you know if the game has something game-breaking for you without playing it? Are you really just saying "I'm going to play this game and rage about it if this feature is included?" That's really the only option I see available.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 novembre 2012 - 08:52 .


#46
Yalision

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Blair Brown wrote...

kewldewd33 wrote...

In regards to #3, Bioware has always had problems resolfing story lines. Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic 2 ended with several cliffhangers, so I was looking forward to the third one. Instead, we got the MMO SWOTOR, which takes place 300 years later.


We didn't make KOTOR2


The ending for Dragon Age 2 was maddening and criminally inconclusive. It was almost as bad as the ending for Halo 2. When I invest a certain number of hours in a game, it isn't unfair of me to expect a true and satisfying resolution, even if there are other matters to explore in the world for sequels.

#47
Todd23

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I vote Synthesis ftw! ... Think about it.

#48
Cancermeat

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I never really got on the band wagon about the ME3 ending hating...... I was too busy playing Skyrim.

#49
Twisted Path

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One lesson to be learned is that you shouldn't strip all the RPG elements out of one of your roleplaying game franchises trying to get Call of Duty players. It will just make your base of RPG game fans mad. That kind of applies to Dragon Age 2 as well.

People mostly complain about the ending but the thing that made ME3 un-re-playable for me was all the RPG elements that were in the first two games being taken out.

#50
Mello

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frostajulie wrote...

make an ending that allows the player to feel like they won and all their playtime actually mattered. While this does not have to be what many snarky players call a disney ending it does need to make the characters player feel like they achieved a glorious and epic victory. Failure to deliver on this point is complete failure to learn anything. That being said if Bioware is worried they are unable to deliver on this point (which is a stupid and baseless worry since they did it before see the end of ME2 and DAO- ANY ENDING and the end of ME1) then maybe they should be sure to include a disney ending option for fans who don't play games to feel sad helpless and depressed.

This.
I think there should be a disney ending either way. If I did everything the positive way then **** I want a positive ending.