51 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a sword\\shield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

The only forced one is Varric, which story wise makes perfect sense. The other are forced by you, the player's, own meta knowlegde. You want Bethany as a grey warden, but you don't want to do the requirement off it. That is your choice. Don't want to do the requirement, you don't get the prize. Then let Bethany die or leave her to the circle.

And you thinking it looks silly is again a problem that is only yours and yours alone. All ranged works. Even it works well.

I don't care wherever you want to use Fenris or not. He is there so you are not forced on Aveline. Heck, I tank with Merill actually since she benefits from a lot of consitition, mean I often don't neither warrior.

The only thing forced in dragon age are that you have to have the protagonist on the team and companions there for their own specific quest (which makes sense). Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

[Nurot]

esper wrote...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I agree. I actually think that Fenris is a better tank than Aveline, just give him enough con to survive between healing cooldowns (potions or magic). Since he has a better offensive with his long reach, he has an easier time holding aggro. A tank that does too little damage is not good at holding aggro. Aveline has many good defensive skills, but if you concentrate all your talent points into those she tends do do too little damage. She survives anything, bit does not protect the party enough. You could probably build her as good as Fenris, by ignoring a lot of her defensive talents, but then again, you could build Fenris in almost the same way, meaning they are probably equally good at tanking.

[Potato Cat]

Nurot wrote...

esper wrote...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I agree. I actually think that Fenris is a better tank than Aveline, just give him enough con to survive between healing cooldowns (potions or magic). Since he has a better offensive with his long reach, he has an easier time holding aggro. A tank that does too little damage is not good at holding aggro. Aveline has many good defensive skills, but if you concentrate all your talent points into those she tends do do too little damage. She survives anything, bit does not protect the party enough. You could probably build her as good as Fenris, by ignoring a lot of her defensive talents, but then again, you could build Fenris in almost the same way, meaning they are probably equally good at tanking.

I thought Fenris was miles better myself. I think I got him immune, if not highly resistant, to magic on one playthrough and he still did a fair bit of damage, one thing my Avelines seemed unable to do, with decent health. Plus the aggro thing you mentioned.

[Spankoman]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't see the problem. People should be required to make an effort to keep their companions. People should be required to complete certain prerequisites in order to access certain story content.

Yep. People are upset that their preferred metagame playstyle makes certain content harder to access. Too bad (or maybe "to bad").

[esper]

Elfman wrote...

Nurot wrote...

esper wrote...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I agree. I actually think that Fenris is a better tank than Aveline, just give him enough con to survive between healing cooldowns (potions or magic). Since he has a better offensive with his long reach, he has an easier time holding aggro. A tank that does too little damage is not good at holding aggro. Aveline has many good defensive skills, but if you concentrate all your talent points into those she tends do do too little damage. She survives anything, bit does not protect the party enough. You could probably build her as good as Fenris, by ignoring a lot of her defensive talents, but then again, you could build Fenris in almost the same way, meaning they are probably equally good at tanking.

I thought Fenris was miles better myself. I think I got him immune, if not highly resistant, to magic on one playthrough and he still did a fair bit of damage, one thing my Avelines seemed unable to do, with decent health. Plus the aggro thing you mentioned.

Yes, the system is quite flexible. Carver is quite good too once he gets his specilazation.
But alot of people are simply to blind (sorry, but it is true) to use it.
They are so used to rpg-chliches that they see: Oh, that characther is a sword and shield that means that she is the only tank. Oh that characther is the healer, other method of healing not possible. It do not think bioware should pander to that. Espically when companion are so important. All possible variation of the teams should be viable in combat for those who understand how the combat works.

My favorite team goes like this.

Blood mage Hawke (specialized in entropy + arcane + sustanied skills .) Support + tanking when Merrill is not up to it. Also gains extra allies by controlling the enemy when she can.

Merrill: Drawing agrro from Anders + tanking, her job is simply to survive and protect Anders. Also deal some aoe damage on the occassion she is free to do it.

Anders: Healing + elemental damage which means he draws a lot of aggro, hence why I need Merrill.

+ whoever else I want storywise.

It took a lot of work, but I managed to get it to work on nightmare.

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

The only forced one is Varric, which story wise makes perfect sense. The other are forced by you, the player's, own meta knowlegde. You want Bethany as a grey warden, but you don't want to do the requirement off it. That is your choice. Don't want to do the requirement, you don't get the prize. Then let Bethany die or leave her to the circle.

And you thinking it looks silly is again a problem that is only yours and yours alone. All ranged works. Even it works well.

I don't care wherever you want to use Fenris or not. He is there so you are not forced on Aveline. Heck, I tank with Merill actually since she benefits from a lot of consitition, mean I often don't neither warrior.

The only thing forced in dragon age are that you have to have the protagonist on the team and companions there for their own specific quest (which makes sense). Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Try using a bow in a fight vs 4 enemies armed with swords, all standing right next to you. Yes, it would be silly. Going into the Deep Roads with zero melee weapons not only looks silly, it is silly.

When you can`t spec your characters at all, the system isn`t flexible. You have to resort to pure cheese in order to beat the game on Nightmare. More or less exploiting broken game mechanics, and things like that. And yes. the game does force companions onto you, when its not their personal quests. In the end fight Merril allways shows up and joins me. For no good reason at all. Anders being dead, and Bethany (sometimes) is dead too. Merrill just shows up and joins. Behaving like she is my friend, when i have made it perfectly clear, for 10 years, that i want nothing to do with her. thats forced. Fenris also shows up doing the same thing.

[UrgentArchengel]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

I found myself taking certain party members on quests based on who would gain what kind of points, rather than taking who I wanted. I also found myself having to agree with certain things characters said regardless of what my Hawke thought because I wanted their friendship to go a certain way. I hated that.

[NRieh]

. Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Exactly my thought. It's just I'd never call this system "flexible". It's just...well, hack-n-slash is hack-n-slash, and it's not a good thing. But it's true that due to this system you are barely restricted with your party choice.

Flexible party was in DAO, where you could make Oghren dual or shield, where you could use Sten as a crossbow archer or make Leliana and Zev both DW and archer, depending on your preference. Here - it simply does not really matter whom you pick and how you build them.

I was very upset at first, because I liked Varric, but being archer rouge myself I thouhg "oh, crap! I need two melees to keep aggro away from me and Anders, so how can I take Varric with me?!". And game gives me a choice of just 3 melee units (one of which ran away with a book). But once I understood that DAO and "classic" party setups have nothing to do with this game - I picked my prefered party and enjoyed my PT.

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

The only forced one is Varric, which story wise makes perfect sense. The other are forced by you, the player's, own meta knowlegde. You want Bethany as a grey warden, but you don't want to do the requirement off it. That is your choice. Don't want to do the requirement, you don't get the prize. Then let Bethany die or leave her to the circle.

And you thinking it looks silly is again a problem that is only yours and yours alone. All ranged works. Even it works well.

I don't care wherever you want to use Fenris or not. He is there so you are not forced on Aveline. Heck, I tank with Merill actually since she benefits from a lot of consitition, mean I often don't neither warrior.

The only thing forced in dragon age are that you have to have the protagonist on the team and companions there for their own specific quest (which makes sense). Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Try using a bow in a fight vs 4 enemies armed with swords, all standing right next to you. Yes, it would be silly. Going into the Deep Roads with zero melee weapons not only looks silly, it is silly.

When you can`t spec your characters at all, the system isn`t flexible. You have to resort to pure cheese in order to beat the game on Nightmare. More or less exploiting broken game mechanics, and things like that. And yes. the game does force companions onto you, when its not their personal quests. In the end fight Merril allways shows up and joins me. For no good reason at all. Anders being dead, and Bethany (sometimes) is dead too. Merrill just shows up and joins. Behaving like she is my friend, when i have made it perfectly clear, for 10 years, that i want nothing to do with her. thats forced. Fenris also shows up doing the same thing.

Yeah, by that logic going melee is silly, since with a bow/mager you would never get close to me in the first since you would be burned to death/have an arrow in your brain way before you even got close. When talking melee/ranged in real life it all depens on who acts first. Given that mages can fireball areas, melee having a numbers doesn't matter by that logic. (Espically since there are no templar darkspawn to cancel mages.) And trying to beat a giant stone with a sword is just silly.

That forced on you is something completely different than what you were talking about before. Forced to join your team storywise, not forced to join you in a specific area in order to complete the quest, which is what you started with arguing, nor is is forced to join you combat/gameplay wise to fight which is what the original quote started with. You are now moving the goal post which such a speed, that I have no intention of keeping up with you anymore since that would be moving to far away from discussing gameplay for my liking in a da:i forum.

[AstraDrakkar]

I hope there are little to no forced companions and that there are enough potential companions available, so that I can forge the team i want to, and not feel like I have to include everyone just to make the game playable.

[esper]

Nrieh wrote...

. Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Exactly my thought. It's just I'd never call this system "flexible". It's just...well, hack-n-slash is hack-n-slash, and it's not a good thing. But it's true that due to this system you are barely restricted with your party choice.

Flexible party was in DAO, where you could make Oghren dual or shield, where you could use Sten as a crossbow archer or make Leliana and Zev both DW and archer, depending on your preference. Here - it simply does not really matter whom you pick and how you build them.

I was very upset at first, because I liked Varric, but being archer rouge myself I thouhg "oh, crap! I need two melees to keep aggro away from me and Anders, so how can I take Varric with me?!". And game gives me a choice of just 3 melee units (one of which ran away with a book). But once I understood that DAO and "classic" party setups have nothing to do with this game - I picked my prefered party and enjoyed my PT.

'

Da:o wasn't stratectig to me at all, I just earthquaked/oilthing I don't remember/fireballed enemies with my invunerable arcane warrior mage warden on nightmare. So if the team was flexible it didn't matter since all I really needed was a rouge for the odd chest beside myself.

Buildwise da:o and da2 function the same, neither is hack and slack, and people claiming that need to play an hack and slack game to see what it is. (I recommond kingdom hearts, the later installements are actually quite fun combat wise and for hack and slash quite possible to build different characthers). Both has the weakness that if you by accident stubmle into the perfect build combat becomes boring because it becomes to easy. (Da2 has the advantage that at least that is over fast with a perfect build)

You are one of the people 'blinded' by rpg cliches, I mentioned. You think that making Oghren dual and shield is the only way to make him a tank, that is not true, and that is inflexebility in my mind, since you are basically saying: Only a shield and sword tanks (I know I am taking your example to extremes here sorry about that, it is to easier illustrate my point).

At least not for da2. As said Fenris tanks well, in fact as some points out better than Aveline if you focus on the right three because he has crazy high magic resistance. It just demands that you build him slightly different. Perhaps sacrifice some dex point for constitution points and picks some other talents from the talents three than pure attack talents. That in my mind is flexability because weapon type no longer mean a fast role in the combat meaning that you no longer are locked into: Must bring at least one rouge/warrior/mage along, but can make a team off the companions you like no matter their class.

Keep in mind I don't mean the most optimal team, just a doable team on nightmare. And of course it takes some more thinkering, knowlegde of the system to go with say three mages and a rouge effectively, but it is doable, and that is how it should be.

[GloriousDame]

I like the idea of being forced to work with people whose views may greatly differ with those of the character I'm playing. At the same time, however, I don't appreciate having to cater to the other character's opinions just to gain their loyalty- that's just fake. As already mentioned, DA2 did a much better job balancing this than DAO, but there still needs to be some improvement.

I like the idea of being forced to work with characters that don't always agree with me because it's based on the very grounded notion that oftentimes we have to work people we don't like for the greater good. I firmly believe that if we have more options to compromise, to meet in the middle, in addition to the friendship/rivalry program, the game would be much more balanced in this aspect.

Or... 1) We could always have the option to tell someone to leave (like in DAO) and make the game all the more difficult as consequence. 2) Players don't have to take along companions they don't agree with, like we've been doing, and just look at those players like extensions of your character's social network. But this hardly seems fair if we like a character, but we can only gain rivalry points or negative points on a mission that has their views clash with the PC's. So again- I'd love the option to compromise.

[Kail Ashton]

Only party complaints i have is needing to bring along certin job classes *stares at rogues* otherwise stay the course with DA2's style of friendship/rivalry and just expand on it and add more DA:O instances where you could sometimes talk a pissed off companion down on choices they didn't like, cause y'know, persuasion & cunning was rendered useful for stuff like that

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

The only forced one is Varric, which story wise makes perfect sense. The other are forced by you, the player's, own meta knowlegde. You want Bethany as a grey warden, but you don't want to do the requirement off it. That is your choice. Don't want to do the requirement, you don't get the prize. Then let Bethany die or leave her to the circle.

And you thinking it looks silly is again a problem that is only yours and yours alone. All ranged works. Even it works well.

I don't care wherever you want to use Fenris or not. He is there so you are not forced on Aveline. Heck, I tank with Merill actually since she benefits from a lot of consitition, mean I often don't neither warrior.

The only thing forced in dragon age are that you have to have the protagonist on the team and companions there for their own specific quest (which makes sense). Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Try using a bow in a fight vs 4 enemies armed with swords, all standing right next to you. Yes, it would be silly. Going into the Deep Roads with zero melee weapons not only looks silly, it is silly.

When you can`t spec your characters at all, the system isn`t flexible. You have to resort to pure cheese in order to beat the game on Nightmare. More or less exploiting broken game mechanics, and things like that. And yes. the game does force companions onto you, when its not their personal quests. In the end fight Merril allways shows up and joins me. For no good reason at all. Anders being dead, and Bethany (sometimes) is dead too. Merrill just shows up and joins. Behaving like she is my friend, when i have made it perfectly clear, for 10 years, that i want nothing to do with her. thats forced. Fenris also shows up doing the same thing.

Yeah, by that logic going melee is silly, since with a bow/mager you would never get close to me in the first since you would be burned to death/have an arrow in your brain way before you even got close. When talking melee/ranged in real life it all depens on who acts first. Given that mages can fireball areas, melee having a numbers doesn't matter by that logic. (Espically since there are no templar darkspawn to cancel mages.) And trying to beat a giant stone with a sword is just silly.

That forced on you is something completely different than what you were talking about before. Forced to join your team storywise, not forced to join you in a specific area in order to complete the quest, which is what you started with arguing, nor is is forced to join you combat/gameplay wise to fight which is what the original quote started with. You are now moving the goal post which such a speed, that I have no intention of keeping up with you anymore since that would be moving to far away from discussing gameplay for my liking in a da:i forum.

Given the fact that enemies spawn 2 feet away from you DA2...yeah. Bow is an excelent weapon...

Fair enough.

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

The only forced one is Varric, which story wise makes perfect sense. The other are forced by you, the player's, own meta knowlegde. You want Bethany as a grey warden, but you don't want to do the requirement off it. That is your choice. Don't want to do the requirement, you don't get the prize. Then let Bethany die or leave her to the circle.

And you thinking it looks silly is again a problem that is only yours and yours alone. All ranged works. Even it works well.

I don't care wherever you want to use Fenris or not. He is there so you are not forced on Aveline. Heck, I tank with Merill actually since she benefits from a lot of consitition, mean I often don't neither warrior.

The only thing forced in dragon age are that you have to have the protagonist on the team and companions there for their own specific quest (which makes sense). Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Try using a bow in a fight vs 4 enemies armed with swords, all standing right next to you. Yes, it would be silly. Going into the Deep Roads with zero melee weapons not only looks silly, it is silly.

When you can`t spec your characters at all, the system isn`t flexible. You have to resort to pure cheese in order to beat the game on Nightmare. More or less exploiting broken game mechanics, and things like that. And yes. the game does force companions onto you, when its not their personal quests. In the end fight Merril allways shows up and joins me. For no good reason at all. Anders being dead, and Bethany (sometimes) is dead too. Merrill just shows up and joins. Behaving like she is my friend, when i have made it perfectly clear, for 10 years, that i want nothing to do with her. thats forced. Fenris also shows up doing the same thing.

Yeah, by that logic going melee is silly, since with a bow/mager you would never get close to me in the first since you would be burned to death/have an arrow in your brain way before you even got close. When talking melee/ranged in real life it all depens on who acts first. Given that mages can fireball areas, melee having a numbers doesn't matter by that logic. (Espically since there are no templar darkspawn to cancel mages.) And trying to beat a giant stone with a sword is just silly.

That forced on you is something completely different than what you were talking about before. Forced to join your team storywise, not forced to join you in a specific area in order to complete the quest, which is what you started with arguing, nor is is forced to join you combat/gameplay wise to fight which is what the original quote started with. You are now moving the goal post which such a speed, that I have no intention of keeping up with you anymore since that would be moving to far away from discussing gameplay for my liking in a da:i forum.

Given the fact that enemies spawn 2 feet away from you DA2...yeah. Bow is an excelent weapon...

Fair enough.

That is what the mages on the team are for. Cone of cold and they are finished.

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Yeah, it's stupid. I was a rogue in DA2, which meant two of my party slots were already filled with the required tank and healer (Aveline and Anders). My third slot went to my LI, Merrill, because I always bring my LI along with me. I really liked Isabla, but there was no room in my party for her, and it annoys me to no end that she skipped out on me at the end of Act 2 and I never saw her again or experienced her story because of that.

Same here. Aveline was pretty much in my party at all times. i had to create a swordshield warrior in order to free up a slot for a different character.

Picture this. An archer PC. if you want Bethany to become a gray warden, you are stuck with her, Anders and Varric for the deep roads expedition. Thats zero melee damage. All ranged. Great fun for the boss fights...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I can easily fight through da2 on nightmare with a team consisting off an sub-optimal mage Hawke, Anders and Merrill + often Varric or Sebastian. (That means all ranged). I takes some thinking and pre-planning and I have to reload some times, but it is doable.

All zero melee damage + all ranged for the deep roads is a plus. That means it is much easier to dogde the final boss of the area. Carver is the one often dying for me there and hindering me team with his stupid melee damage + close combat.

Well i don`t use either of the "copy+paste anime elves from generic jrpg" in any of my playthroughs, so.

Ohh i am sure its doable with ranged only combat in the deep roads. But it looks rather silly, and I would be doing it because i have zero choice in the matter. Thats the point. Forced companions.

The only forced one is Varric, which story wise makes perfect sense. The other are forced by you, the player's, own meta knowlegde. You want Bethany as a grey warden, but you don't want to do the requirement off it. That is your choice. Don't want to do the requirement, you don't get the prize. Then let Bethany die or leave her to the circle.

And you thinking it looks silly is again a problem that is only yours and yours alone. All ranged works. Even it works well.

I don't care wherever you want to use Fenris or not. He is there so you are not forced on Aveline. Heck, I tank with Merill actually since she benefits from a lot of consitition, mean I often don't neither warrior.

The only thing forced in dragon age are that you have to have the protagonist on the team and companions there for their own specific quest (which makes sense). Otherwise it is you the player who place imaginary boundaries on the game saying x and z are required when they are really not. The fighting system is quite flexible and if you tinkle enough with it any tema you want are do able even on nightmare.

Try using a bow in a fight vs 4 enemies armed with swords, all standing right next to you. Yes, it would be silly. Going into the Deep Roads with zero melee weapons not only looks silly, it is silly.

When you can`t spec your characters at all, the system isn`t flexible. You have to resort to pure cheese in order to beat the game on Nightmare. More or less exploiting broken game mechanics, and things like that. And yes. the game does force companions onto you, when its not their personal quests. In the end fight Merril allways shows up and joins me. For no good reason at all. Anders being dead, and Bethany (sometimes) is dead too. Merrill just shows up and joins. Behaving like she is my friend, when i have made it perfectly clear, for 10 years, that i want nothing to do with her. thats forced. Fenris also shows up doing the same thing.

Yeah, by that logic going melee is silly, since with a bow/mager you would never get close to me in the first since you would be burned to death/have an arrow in your brain way before you even got close. When talking melee/ranged in real life it all depens on who acts first. Given that mages can fireball areas, melee having a numbers doesn't matter by that logic. (Espically since there are no templar darkspawn to cancel mages.) And trying to beat a giant stone with a sword is just silly.

That forced on you is something completely different than what you were talking about before. Forced to join your team storywise, not forced to join you in a specific area in order to complete the quest, which is what you started with arguing, nor is is forced to join you combat/gameplay wise to fight which is what the original quote started with. You are now moving the goal post which such a speed, that I have no intention of keeping up with you anymore since that would be moving to far away from discussing gameplay for my liking in a da:i forum.

Given the fact that enemies spawn 2 feet away from you DA2...yeah. Bow is an excelent weapon...

Fair enough.

That is what the mages on the team are for. Cone of cold and they are finished.

Its still silly. Zero melee weapons when your party is constantly surrounded by melee enemies. Try that in any other rpg and you are dead.

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...



Its still silly. Zero melee weapons when your party is constantly surrounded by melee enemies. Try that in any other rpg and you are dead.

And finally we return to something substansial again. 
Why is that a good thing? Because you like melee weapon? How does that logically makes sense? It is akin to mages wear robes, which there is no specific reason for. We are talking about one two person with bows and a knife for close combat here, and two person who can materilize the elements with their mind in less than a second in your example. (You started with bow hawke, varric, bethany, anders) why should they not be able to complete anihilate the materilize opponents before they have even materilized?

This is not a mmorpg classes don't have to be necessary so nobody is left out, Canonically in both dragon age games the heroes are execptionel fighters. It is mentioned. There is no need to force one class to be necessary.

Also you are factually wrong, in Neverwinternight 2 mask of the betrayer I fought most of a combat against Okku's whole army with 2 wizards and a spirit shamam who I only use for spells. I vaguely remember having a cleric too but she went down in the first minute because I accidentially friendly fired her.

Modifié par esper, 18 novembre 2012 - 09:31 .

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Its still silly. Zero melee weapons when your party is constantly surrounded by melee enemies. Try that in any other rpg and you are dead.

And finally we return to something substansial again. 
Why is that a good thing? Because you like melee weapon? How does that logically makes sense? It is akin to mages wear robes, which there is no specific reason for. We are talking about one two person with bows and a knife for close combat here, and two person who can materilize the elements with their mind in less than a second in your example. (You started with bow hawke, varric, bethany, anders) why should they not be able to complete anihilate the materilize opponents before they have even materilized?

This is not a mmorpg classes don't have to be necessary so nobody is left out, Canonically in both dragon age games the heroes are execptionel fighters. It is mentioned. There is no need to force one class to be necessary.

Also you are factually wrong, in Neverwinternight 2 mask of the betrayer I fought most of a combat against Okku's whole army with 2 wizards and a spirit shamam who I only use for spells. I vaguely remember having a cleric too but she went down in the first minute because I accidentially friendly fired her.

My rogue archer couldn`t equip a dagger. Thats the point. the set weapon style makes companions feel forced. Just because my character is an archer, he can`t even pick up a knife in case an enemy gets too close? Its not about liking melee at all. If that was the reason, I wouldn`t be playing a mage or an archer, would I? its about having somewhat belivable combat. But I agree with you about the robes. A cricle mage would wear it, sure. But not an apostate.

Ohh don`t get me started on mmorpgs. I hate them with a passion. in the first DA game, nothing felt forced. Simply because you could equip both ranged and melee weapons to all of the companions. If you wanted someone else to be a tank, you could.

Mask of the Betrayer is a rather poor example, though. Given that you start off on an epic level in it. Spellcasters in D&D are seriously overpowered at higher levels. I am sure you could solo that one with a sorcerer or something.

[Dabrikishaw]

Nurot wrote...

esper wrote...

Sigh. Aveline and Anders are absolutely not necessary no matter your class.

First. Fenris can tank quite well if you build him to it. Secondly potion + mythral's favor can substitute Anders.

I agree. I actually think that Fenris is a better tank than Aveline, just give him enough con to survive between healing cooldowns (potions or magic). Since he has a better offensive with his long reach, he has an easier time holding aggro. A tank that does too little damage is not good at holding aggro. Aveline has many good defensive skills, but if you concentrate all your talent points into those she tends do do too little damage. She survives anything, bit does not protect the party enough. You could probably build her as good as Fenris, by ignoring a lot of her defensive talents, but then again, you could build Fenris in almost the same way, meaning they are probably equally good at tanking.

These, no one is forced on you except for one story-justifed event. After that you can just ignore whatever PMs you don't like and go with somone else.

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Its still silly. Zero melee weapons when your party is constantly surrounded by melee enemies. Try that in any other rpg and you are dead.

And finally we return to something substansial again. 
Why is that a good thing? Because you like melee weapon? How does that logically makes sense? It is akin to mages wear robes, which there is no specific reason for. We are talking about one two person with bows and a knife for close combat here, and two person who can materilize the elements with their mind in less than a second in your example. (You started with bow hawke, varric, bethany, anders) why should they not be able to complete anihilate the materilize opponents before they have even materilized?

This is not a mmorpg classes don't have to be necessary so nobody is left out, Canonically in both dragon age games the heroes are execptionel fighters. It is mentioned. There is no need to force one class to be necessary.

Also you are factually wrong, in Neverwinternight 2 mask of the betrayer I fought most of a combat against Okku's whole army with 2 wizards and a spirit shamam who I only use for spells. I vaguely remember having a cleric too but she went down in the first minute because I accidentially friendly fired her.

My rogue archer couldn`t equip a dagger. Thats the point. the set weapon style makes companions feel forced. Just because my character is an archer, he can`t even pick up a knife in case an enemy gets too close? Its not about liking melee at all. If that was the reason, I wouldn`t be playing a mage or an archer, would I? its about having somewhat belivable combat. But I agree with you about the robes. A cricle mage would wear it, sure. But not an apostate.

Ohh don`t get me started on mmorpgs. I hate them with a passion. in the first DA game, nothing felt forced. Simply because you could equip both ranged and melee weapons to all of the companions. If you wanted someone else to be a tank, you could.

Mask of the Betrayer is a rather poor example, though. Given that you start off on an epic level in it. Spellcasters in D&D are seriously overpowered at higher levels. I am sure you could solo that one with a sorcerer or something.

We start with the mark one first. So what if I can solo. You point was it was impossible in any other rpg. I proved it wasn't and was even nice enough to pick a party rpg to compare with.

Your archer uses a knife (the murder knife) in close combat. Sebastian has one too. Varric has no need as Bianca is sturdy enough to function as a bludgoing. Also your Hawke could shift to dualwielding weapons any time he wants. If dragon age was realistic it would all come down to who got the first shot in (figuratively speaking) no matter the class since there is no such thing as hit point and you can die from a scrape in the knee if you are extremely unlucky. and thus it would be completely realistic for two archer and two mages to go into the deep roads. If fact I would properly recommend you to be ranged when you are not a grey warden since going melee against dark spawn raises the risk of being tainted extremely do to the fact that you are a lot closer to them.

But know I think we are honestly derailing the thread. The subject of this thread is wherever you are forced to have companion along (combatwise). I stand by my original point that even on nightmare the only time you are forcd combatwise to bring along a companion is on their personal quest.

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Its still silly. Zero melee weapons when your party is constantly surrounded by melee enemies. Try that in any other rpg and you are dead.

And finally we return to something substansial again. 
Why is that a good thing? Because you like melee weapon? How does that logically makes sense? It is akin to mages wear robes, which there is no specific reason for. We are talking about one two person with bows and a knife for close combat here, and two person who can materilize the elements with their mind in less than a second in your example. (You started with bow hawke, varric, bethany, anders) why should they not be able to complete anihilate the materilize opponents before they have even materilized?

This is not a mmorpg classes don't have to be necessary so nobody is left out, Canonically in both dragon age games the heroes are execptionel fighters. It is mentioned. There is no need to force one class to be necessary.

Also you are factually wrong, in Neverwinternight 2 mask of the betrayer I fought most of a combat against Okku's whole army with 2 wizards and a spirit shamam who I only use for spells. I vaguely remember having a cleric too but she went down in the first minute because I accidentially friendly fired her.

My rogue archer couldn`t equip a dagger. Thats the point. the set weapon style makes companions feel forced. Just because my character is an archer, he can`t even pick up a knife in case an enemy gets too close? Its not about liking melee at all. If that was the reason, I wouldn`t be playing a mage or an archer, would I? its about having somewhat belivable combat. But I agree with you about the robes. A cricle mage would wear it, sure. But not an apostate.

Ohh don`t get me started on mmorpgs. I hate them with a passion. in the first DA game, nothing felt forced. Simply because you could equip both ranged and melee weapons to all of the companions. If you wanted someone else to be a tank, you could.

Mask of the Betrayer is a rather poor example, though. Given that you start off on an epic level in it. Spellcasters in D&D are seriously overpowered at higher levels. I am sure you could solo that one with a sorcerer or something.

We start with the mark one first. So what if I can solo. You point was it was impossible in any other rpg. I proved it wasn't and was even nice enough to pick a party rpg to compare with.

Your archer uses a knife (the murder knife) in close combat. Sebastian has one too. Varric has no need as Bianca is sturdy enough to function as a bludgoing. Also your Hawke could shift to dualwielding weapons any time he wants. If dragon age was realistic it would all come down to who got the first shot in (figuratively speaking) no matter the class since there is no such thing as hit point and you can die from a scrape in the knee if you are extremely unlucky. and thus it would be completely realistic for two archer and two mages to go into the deep roads. If fact I would properly recommend you to be ranged when you are not a grey warden since going melee against dark spawn raises the risk of being tainted extremely do to the fact that you are a lot closer to them.

But know I think we are honestly derailing the thread. The subject of this thread is wherever you are forced to have companion along (combatwise). I stand by my original point that even on nightmare the only time you are forcd combatwise to bring along a companion is on their personal quest.

Try playing through the original campaign in NWN 2 without any melee characters, and I am sure you will agree.

But yes. We are derailing the thread.

[Twisted Path]

Didn't one of the developers say that the friendship/rivalry system didn't work as well as they had hoped for this very reason and that they were tweaking it a lot in the new game? I don't recall the exact quote but I remember reading that somewhere.