1297 réponses à ce sujet

[ultimatekotorfan]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Except I got my definiton from Merriam Webster dictionary and you got your definition from thin air.  Also, it doesn't matter what David Gaider thinks.  This is the same guy who initially ignored the can we be atheist in the game by saying that they never had that option in any game and weren't going to put it in DAI before people gleefully poured in evidence to the contrary.  Gaider is fallible.

Wikipedia, actually.
And I gave you examples of rights mages have and how their treatment compares to other practices we don't consider slavery. Which you chose to not approach.
Gaider is fallible but he is right in this. the Circle is not slavery.

And your reasoning for Meredith is exacltly why the Chantry should be destroyed.  They spent preaching how mages are evil so when one mage who had nothing to do with the circle blew up the Chantry, average Kirkwallers would be demanding blood from all mages as to opposed to THE GUY WHO DID IT.  When you have made a system where a whole group of people can be "legitimately" targeted because of the actions of one person, you are are doing it wrong.

First, the Chantry preaches mages are dangerous, which they are, not evil. Their stance is "pity them for they are cursed" and not "hate them".
Second, Meredith's annulment was illegal. The Divine didn't authorize it.
Third, blaming the many for the actions of the few is a staple of mankind. It has happened millions of times in our history and will continue to happen again and again with out without religions.

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.

Limited people's right because they were born dangerous, just like our democracy does.
Do you believe the laws for owning 9mm guns and nuclear bombs should be the same?

You're kidding, right? Pistols and nuclear bombs are created for the express purpose of killing people. Their lethality is intended upon their creation. Mages in DA are actual sentient people who are simply born different than mundane people. The Circle is essentially deciding that (hypothetically) because gay people have the power of telekinesis at birth, they should be locked up and monitored as a "potential" menace to society. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Still isn't slavery.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Still isn't slavery.

If you insist on refusing to acknowledge that the Chantry clearly treats mages like property, then fine. It's not slavery.

It's an absuive relationship. The Chantry is a husband slapping his wife around because she burned the roast a thousand years ago. And now that she's filed for divorce and fled to her sister's house, he's chasing her down to murder her for leaving him.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Do the Chantry sell the mages to the highest bidder, are they treated like property? Nope. So it isn't slavery. It's really very simple.

[silentassassin264]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do the Chantry sell the mages to the highest bidder, are they treated like property? Nope. So it isn't slavery. It's really very simple.

Did the Swastika party sell Jews in Aushwitz?  Nope.  Was it still slavery.  Yep.  Selling to the highest bidder is not required in the definition of slavery.  Stop using tired erroneous logic.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Do the Chantry sell the mages to the highest bidder,

So because you haven't auctioned off your furniture, it isn't property?

The Chantry could have sold mages to other groups if it wanted to. Nothing was stopping it.

are they treated like property? Nope.

Yes, they obviously are. They don't have the right to leave the premises without special permission, they don't have the right to choose their career, they don't have the right to marry, or raise their own children. They don't have the right to volunteer for military service, or to refuse military service when it is demanded of them. They have no legal recourse when they are abused. They rely entirely upon the kindness of their owners, the Chantry, for any sort of quality of life, or any life at all. The few creature comforts they do receive can be revoked without notice.

They're pets. At best.

So it isn't slavery. It's really very simple.

Well, you're half right. It is certainly simple.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

silentassassin264 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do the Chantry sell the mages to the highest bidder, are they treated like property? Nope. So it isn't slavery. It's really very simple.

Did the Swastika party sell Jews in Aushwitz?  Nope.  Was it still slavery.  Yep.  Selling to the highest bidder is not required in the definition of slavery.  Stop using tired erroneous logic.

Actually no, that was not slavery. It was imprisonment, forced manual labor and poor living conditions. Still wasn't slavery. So, perhaps you should actually adhere to the actual defenition of slavery?

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Do the Chantry sell the mages to the highest bidder,

So because you haven't auctioned off your furniture, it isn't property?

The Chantry could have sold mages to other groups if it wanted to. Nothing was stopping it.

What they could have done is irrelevant to the defenition. It is NOT slavery, despite how much you wish for it to be so.
And last I checked my furniture did not have a will of its own, hence my ownership (most of it has indeed been bought (gasp!!)) does not constitute slavery. My purchase of it, does however imply ownership. The pieces I have created myself, would also fall into the category of "my property" since I have myself procured the items to create said piece.
Nice try to use your erronous logic though, but you are gonna need to do better than that.

Plaintiff wrote...

are they treated like property? Nope.

Yes, they obviously are. They don't have the right to leave the premises without special permission, they don't have the right to choose their career, they don't have the right to marry, or raise their own children. They don't have the right to volunteer for military service, or to refuse military service when it is demanded of them. They have no legal recourse when they are abused. They rely entirely upon the kindness of their owners, the Chantry, for any sort of quality of life, or any life at all. The few creature comforts they do receive can be revoked without notice.

They're pets. At best.

Being restricted does not equal slavery. The mages have to adhere by certain laws and rules. That does not make it slavery. That makes it closer to imprisonment, not slavery. Try to stick to one of the two. Makes it easier for you to keep track of.
And for the record, the Circles are completely self sustained when it comes to their gold. The mages' within the Circles quality of life is dependant on the Circle itself, not the Chantry. It is not the Chantry that funds the furniture within.
You must still do better.

[Warden661]

Whether circle mages are slaves has been discussed. A slave is forced to do work by their owners/masters. The only things circle mages are forced to do is live in the circle and learn magic. As a citizen of the US I was required by law to go to school as a kid. Being for forced to learn Isn't slavery. I really don't see how forcing someone to live in nicer accommodations than most of the outside world is slavery either. Tranquil mages could be argued as being slaves but the harrowing could also be argued as due process.

So besides living and learning mages aren't forced to do any real work by anybody. Are they free? No. Are they slaves? No.

Modifié par BoBear, 21 novembre 2012 - 05:34 .

[silentassassin264]

Imprisonment is slavery. There is a reason your rights are forfeited when they lock you up. If you are arrested and imprisoned, the government can do whatever they heck they want to you because you are a slave, property of the state. And before you mention any Bill of Rights stuff, Guantanamo Bay.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Actually no, that was not slavery. It was imprisonment, forced manual labor and poor living conditions. Still wasn't slavery. So, perhaps you should actually adhere to the actual defenition of slavery?

"It wasn't slavery, it just met every single criteria of slavery! That's completely different!"

Do you want people to adhere to the actual definition of slavery, or the one that you made up?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What they could have done is irrelevant to the defenition. It is NOT slavery, despite how much you wish for it to be so.

It is absolutely relevant. A slave does not cease to be a slave just because they aren't being auctioned off right that very minute.

And last I checked my furniture did not have a will of its own, hence my ownership (most of it has indeed been bought (gasp!!)) does not constitute slavery. My purchase of it, does however imply ownership. The pieces I have created myself, would also fall into the category of "my property" since I have myself procured the items to create said piece.
Nice try to use your erronous logic though, but you are gonna need to do better than that.

You missed the point completely.

If you own something, (ie, furniture) it is your property. If you own a person as property, that is slavery. The mages are considered to be the property of the Chantry, therefore the mages are slaves.

Being restricted does not equal slavery.

Being restricted in every single aspect of your life is precisely slavery.

The mages have to adhere by certain laws and rules. That does not make it slavery. That makes it closer to imprisonment, not slavery. Try to stick to one of the two. Makes it easier for you to keep track of.

Imprisonment is inherent to slavery. If slaves were not imprisoned, they would not be slaves. The fact that the mages are imprisoned supports the argument that mages are slaves. Thank you for making my point for me.

And for the record, the Circles are completely self sustained when it comes to their gold. The mages' within the Circles quality of life is dependant on the Circle itself, not the Chantry. It is not the Chantry that funds the furniture within.

How the Circles earn money is irrelevent. They only have an economy in the first place because the Chantry allows it. Their economy is one of the creature comforts I was just ****ing talking about.

You must still do better.

I don't "need" to do anything, your non-logic defeats itself.

[Warden661]

Slaves are held in servitude. Prisoners are held in confinement. Just because you're confined doesn't mean you're in servitude towards anyone.

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote...

Slaves are held in servitude. Prisoners are held in confinement. Just because you're confined doesn't mean you're in servitude towards anyone.

The mages are clearly held in servitude to the Chantry. The Chantry doesn't make use of them often, but that doesn't make them any less enslaved.

[silentassassin264]

BoBear wrote...

Whether circle mages are slaves has been discussed. A slave is forced to do work by their owners/masters. The only things circle mages are forced to do is live in the circle and learn magic. As a citizen of the US I was required by law to go to school as a kid. Being for forced to learn Isn't slavery. I really don't see how forcing someone to live in nicer accommodations than most of the outside world is slavery either. Tranquil mages could be argued as being slaves but the harrowing could also be argued as due process.

So besides living and learning mages aren't forced to do any real work by anybody. Are they free? No. Are they slaves? No.

First, a slave is not required to do work.  A slave is someone who has been reduced to property and has rights at the whim of someone else.  If I kidnap a princess and lock her in a nice tower and all she has to do is look pretty, she is still a slave.  Her freedom is at my dragonic whim.  She can't leave the tower.  She has no basic right to life or liberty.

Second, That is not the same thing.  Stop saying it.  In the United States, everyone has to go to school regardless on circumstance.  In Thedas, not everyone is forced to live in a tower away from their family, surrounded by paranoid armed people who can do to them whatever the want inclduing killing them without cause, and forced to learn about magic and face demons in the fade where they can be killed for just taking too long (use lyrium for nonmages).  If you pick only a part of it, it is like taking people with mental disorders and locking them up and taking away all their rights because they could be a danger to society.  There is a reason we don't have crazy houses like they had in Victorian times anyway.  Human rights issues.

Third, a gilded cage is still a cage.  See point one.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 21 novembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[ultimatekotorfan]

BoBear wrote...

Whether circle mages are slaves has been discussed. A slave is forced to do work by their owners/masters. The only things circle mages are forced to do is live in the circle and learn magic. As a citizen of the US I was required by law to go to school as a kid. Being for forced to learn Isn't slavery. I really don't see how forcing someone to live in nicer accommodations than most of the outside world is slavery either. Tranquil mages could be argued as being slaves but the harrowing could also be argued as due process.

So besides living and learning mages aren't forced to do any real work by anybody. Are they free? No. Are they slaves? No.

Pfft. Please.  The US government doesn't take you from your parents as a child and keep you with them for the rest of your life. That's strictly a Circle practice.

The Circle imprisons you, against your will, in a tower with all the other mages in your country. They then teach you just enough magic so that they can administer a demon field test with no idea as to how powerful of a demon they'll summon. And if you are, for instance, presented with a pride demon (one of the most powerful demons I might add) and by some rare stroke of misfortune posessed by it, you die. If you don't want to stick your head under the guillotine, they forcibly brand your forehead, removing everything about who you are.

To use an analogy: Imagine I put a gun up to your head and have demonstrated I'm willing to kill your friends. I then give you the "option" of either taking a shot to the head and hoping it's a blank, or I give you permanent brain damage.

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...
First, a slave is not required to do work.  A slave is someone who has been reduced to property and has rights at the whim of someone else.  If I kidnap a princess and lock her in a nice tower and all she has to do is look pretty, she is still a slave.  Her freedom is at my dragonic whim.  She can't leave the tower.  She has no basic right to life or liberty.

Second, That is not the same thing.  Stop saying it.  In the United States, everyone has to go to school regardless on circumstance.  In Thedas, not everyone is forced to live in a tower away from their family, surrounded by paranoid armed people who can do to them whatever the want inclduing killing them without cause, and forced to learn about magic and face demons in the fade where they can be killed for just taking too long (use lyrium for nonmages).  If you pick only a part of it, it is like taking people with mental disorders and locking them up and taking away all their rights because they could be a danger to society.  There is a reason we don't have crazy houses like they had in Victorian times anyway.  Human rights issues.

Third, a gilded cage is still a cage.  See point one.

You can look up the definitions if you want. Slaves are held in servitude. If you are not forced to preform a service than you are not a slave. If you just held against your will than you are a prisoner.

Mages are prisoners. Is it right? No. But they are not slaves.

[n7stormrunner]

thats it I'm pro-dragon cult... can we please join a dragon cult....

[Lotion Soronarr]

ultimatekotorfan wrote...
You're kidding, right? Pistols and nuclear bombs are created for the express purpose of killing people. Their lethality is intended upon their creation. Mages in DA are actual sentient people who are simply born different than mundane people. The Circle is essentially deciding that (hypothetically) because gay people have the power of telekinesis at birth, they should be locked up and monitored as a "potential" menace to society. 

Which is utterly irrelevant. "Intened upon creation" is not an argument for anything since it plays no role in aything.

Mages are dangerous. Period. Undisputed fact.
They are not the same as mundanes. Period. Undisputed fact.

To treat different things exactly the same is idotic. Period. Undisputed fact.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yuoaman wrote...
I don't know, some STDs are far more frightening than any demonspawn...

A wise person hinted that that is what magic is for.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ultimatekotorfan wrote...
Pfft. Please.  The US government doesn't take you from your parents as a child and keep you with them for the rest of your life. That's strictly a Circle practice.

And we are told the Circle has good, practical reasons to keep mages from their children.
Morally questionable? Maybe.
But apparently it keeps abomination numbers lower.

The Circle imprisons you, against your will, in a tower with all the other mages in your country. They then teach you just enough magic so that they can administer a demon field test with no idea as to how powerful of a demon they'll summon. And if you are, for instance, presented with a pride demon (one of the most powerful demons I might add) and by some rare stroke of misfortune posessed by it, you die. If you don't want to stick your head under the guillotine, they forcibly brand your forehead, removing everything about who you are.

If you are possesed you die anyway. And the demons will come for you anyway. And for others around you.

Mages are not normal people.
You don't treat Sulfuric Acid and water the same. You dont' handle them the same. You don't store them the same.
Different things wiht different properties require different approches.
And mages do have substantially different properties.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To treat different things exactly the same is idotic. Period. Undisputed fact.

So all different things should treated differently?

[Allan Schumacher]

Imprisonment is slavery. There is a reason your rights are forfeited when they lock you up. If you are arrested and imprisoned, the government can do whatever they heck they want to you because you are a slave, property of the state. And before you mention any Bill of Rights stuff, Guantanamo Bay.

Lets not go here because it's a muddy, muddy water. In actual reality, this statement is incorrect. Prisoners and slaves are very different, even if their rights are restricted to the point where arguably they have forfeited all of them. There's a reason why different words are used, and it's nothing to do with it being a euphemism because one word sounds less harsh than the other.

If you want to use stricter definitions of the word, a slave could be argued to be a subset of prisoner. That is, a slave is a prisoner, but a prisoner is not necessarily a slave. So "Imprisonment is slavery" is not correct, while "slavery is [a type of] imprisonment" would be.

I personally do not feel that mages are slaves, but the idea of possibly unlawful imprisonment and persecution out of fear is certainly a concern. The idea of some people having access to these sorts of powers in a world where one may not have them is certainly a worrisome thing. IMO this is an example of the "moral dilemma" because both "solutions" are potentially less than ideal. Unchecked mages could easily pose a huge risk/threat to all those that do not have magic power (as seen in the Tevinter Imperium), while forced confinement prevents them from having many of the same freedoms and liberties other people would enjoy, through no general fault of his or her own. It's a born, ascribed trait that cannot be ignored.

Hence why I appreciate the situation. It makes me think.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To treat different things exactly the same is idotic. Period. Undisputed fact.

So all different things should treated differently?

Depends -  in what whay they are different, in what way they are similar and degree of difference.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To treat different things exactly the same is idotic. Period. Undisputed fact.

So all different things should treated differently?

ALL different things? I don't know. But if something is more dangerous than the other, I would say yes. But those are THINGS. It's easy to treat objects differently beacuse they're just things, not people.

A lot of people like to say that in Thedas mages and mundane should be looked at the same because of "human rights" as we know it on earth (there are elves in Thedas too but you get the idea). On earth all people should be treated the same because we all are the same, no matter what our beliefs, sexuality ext... are. We all are capable of the same thing. In Thedas though, one people has magic, a weapon that the other people cannot use. This power makes them VERY different. This power is unlike any weapon we have on earth. Anyone can learn to use a gun or knife or whatever but in Thedas the mundane cannot learn to use magic. As Mr. Schumacher said, this is an issue that really makes you think. I would say yes, mages should be looked at differently. The shouldn't be abused for sure but they can't live exactly like the mundane. Im sure we will be able to decide how differently in DA3.

Modifié par BoBear, 21 novembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Scroll]

I never thought of Mages in the Circle as being slaves. More some kind of "Apartheid".