1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Imprisonment is slavery. There is a reason your rights are forfeited when they lock you up. If you are arrested and imprisoned, the government can do whatever they heck they want to you because you are a slave, property of the state. And before you mention any Bill of Rights stuff, Guantanamo Bay.

No. This is stupid. What the state can do to you depends on under what circumstance you're imprisoned and where.

[JimboGee]

First of all locking someone up does not constitute slavery. Usually a person is locked up to protect the public.Under democracy you cannot detain someone based on what they might do, only what they have or were planning to do. i.e blowing up a building. Courts and juries decide the rest.

[Adanu]

[quote]JimboGee wrote...


[/quote]

His intent was to stop Templars and Mages **** footing around the very serious and true issue of THE CURRENT CIRCLE SYSTEM NOT WORKING AND HAVING BROKEN LONG AGO FROM TEMPLAR ABUSES.

Without radical change, there was no way in hell mages would get any semblence of reform of freedom that would work for both parties. Without rebellion, the Templars would simply dictate all terms. Just look at Lambert in Asunder. This man is the LORD SEEKER and essentially the top Templar. Do you really think this man and all others like them would willingly give up the power they held? It was either force, or submission for more ages when reform failed.

People in the modern day don't seem to realize that violence is usually the only way to reform things. It is very, very rare for reform to come without force. Naivette doesn't make you right, it makes you soft.
[/quote]

That is the biggest pile of crock I have read. When the IRA started their bombing campaign against the British government claiming "Ireland should remain Irish" did it get them anywhere ? Funny enough, it turns out most of the people living in Northern Ireland wanted to stay under british rule. Killing innocent people get your point nowhere. In the end it turns people aganst you because they realise how unstable you really are.  When you are willing to kill innocent people, you amass enemies on both sides. If you need further examples look at the beheadings made by the so called freedom fighters in afghanistan. Their actions have caused people to think ALL muslims are terrorist or support terrorism.
[/quote]
Barring the personal attack... Ireland is one small corner of the world. The circles are worldwide. Trying to compare them is like comparing an apple to a watermelon. They're both edible... but they are totally different otherwise.

[Inquisitor Arc]

The real slaves in Thedas are all being sacrificed and used by blood mages. What about them? Don't they deserve justice and freedom? Are we just going to ignore them, or are they just insignificant because they don't have magic?

[SeptimusMagistos]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

The real slaves in Thedas are all being sacrificed and used by blood mages. What about them? Don't they deserve justice and freedom? Are we just going to ignore them, or are they just insignificant because they don't have magic?

I generally free slaves whenever I find some. And I generally free mages if I'm at all able to. I don't see why one should inerfere with the other.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

The real slaves in Thedas are all being sacrificed and used by blood mages. What about them? Don't they deserve justice and freedom? Are we just going to ignore them, or are they just insignificant because they don't have magic?

Yes, because you see, they are just slaves, they are not poor and oppressed mage wannabe-slaves. As we all know, wooing for the wannabe-slaves requires much less effort and actual spine to do, than actually wanting to improve the situation for actual slaves.

[MisterJB]

Adanu wrote...
Barring the personal attack... Ireland is one small corner of the world. The circles are worldwide. Trying to compare them is like comparing an apple to a watermelon. They're both edible... but they are totally different otherwise.

Thedas is not the world. It's a single continent roughly the size of and based on Europe. There are many lands beyond its borders, such as the lands where the kossith came from. We just haven't travelered there yet.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I generally free slaves whenever
I find some. And I generally free mages if I'm at all able to. I don't
see why one should inerfere with the other.

I don't see
why anyone would want to focus on fighting the Chantry when the true
opressors still stand in the North as a permanent reminder of the worst
mages are capable of.
I'm hopeful these new glimpsed Tevinter enemy
NPCs means they will finally be an enemy faction in DA3 rather than just
some random slavers.

[MisterJB]

Hell, this is probrably what all Magisters of Tevinter have been doing since Anders commited his act of terrorism.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

The real slaves in Thedas are all being sacrificed and used by blood mages. What about them? Don't they deserve justice and freedom? Are we just going to ignore them, or are they just insignificant because they don't have magic?

I generally free slaves whenever I find some. And I generally free mages if I'm at all able to. I don't see why one should inerfere with the other.

If the mages are sane, responsible people who won't abuse their power to make themselves slave masters, it won't. But since this is Thedas we're talking about, counting on people to be sane, responsible creatures of goodwill isn't all that safe a bet.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

Hell, this is probrably what all Magisters of Tevinter have been doing since Anders commited his act of terrorism.

I think it's probably more, "Oh, crud. If their mages take over, they might start earnestly researching blood magic. If that happens, we might have some foreigners capable of competing with us." Mages are not a monolithic group. They never have been.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:15 .

[JimboGee]

[quote]Adanu wrote...

[quote]JimboGee wrote...


[/quote]

His intent was to stop Templars and Mages **** footing around the very serious and true issue of THE CURRENT CIRCLE SYSTEM NOT WORKING AND HAVING BROKEN LONG AGO FROM TEMPLAR ABUSES.

Without radical change, there was no way in hell mages would get any semblence of reform of freedom that would work for both parties. Without rebellion, the Templars would simply dictate all terms. Just look at Lambert in Asunder. This man is the LORD SEEKER and essentially the top Templar. Do you really think this man and all others like them would willingly give up the power they held? It was either force, or submission for more ages when reform failed.

People in the modern day don't seem to realize that violence is usually the only way to reform things. It is very, very rare for reform to come without force. Naivette doesn't make you right, it makes you soft.
[/quote]

That is the biggest pile of crock I have read. When the IRA started their bombing campaign against the British government claiming "Ireland should remain Irish" did it get them anywhere ? Funny enough, it turns out most of the people living in Northern Ireland wanted to stay under british rule. Killing innocent people get your point nowhere. In the end it turns people aganst you because they realise how unstable you really are.  When you are willing to kill innocent people, you amass enemies on both sides. If you need further examples look at the beheadings made by the so called freedom fighters in afghanistan. Their actions have caused people to think ALL muslims are terrorist or support terrorism.
[/quote]
Barring the personal attack... Ireland is one small corner of the world. The circles are worldwide. Trying to compare them is like comparing an apple to a watermelon. They're both edible... but they are totally different otherwise.

[/quote]

First of all, if your going to belittle an attack which spans 30 years, I suggest you read up on it. Secondly, the police were then given the go ahead to round people up on the mere suspicion that they were members of the IRA and torture them. All because one man decided to set a bomb off. As soon as your mission starts scaring other people or disrupting their lives they turn against you no matter how much they supported you in the first place.

If you need further proof read up on any fire fighter strikes or oil strikes. Mass support until people realise ****s about to tun ugly.

[Adanu]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

The real slaves in Thedas are all being sacrificed and used by blood mages. What about them? Don't they deserve justice and freedom? Are we just going to ignore them, or are they just insignificant because they don't have magic?

Yes, because you see, they are just slaves, they are not poor and oppressed mage wannabe-slaves. As we all know, wooing for the wannabe-slaves requires much less effort and actual spine to do, than actually wanting to improve the situation for actual slaves.

Sarcasm and indirect belittlement doesn't make your argument right, nor valid. It makes you look like a fool for trying to put words in my mouth on a subject I've never commented on.

Slaves without a support structure for getting out of their conditions are no better off than a beggar on the street. Want a DA example? Varania

Mages need a support structure too for their abilities, which is what I advocate. Treating all mages like potential criminals will not help. Treating all mages like potential powerhouses will. See the difference there?

[Warden661]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

The real slaves in Thedas are all being sacrificed and used by blood mages. What about them? Don't they deserve justice and freedom? Are we just going to ignore them, or are they just insignificant because they don't have magic?

Yes, because you see, they are just slaves, they are not poor and oppressed mage wannabe-slaves. As we all know, wooing for the wannabe-slaves requires much less effort and actual spine to do, than actually wanting to improve the situation for actual slaves.

I'm all for sarcasm, I use it everyday, but I don't think an attack on someones "backbone" (so to speak) helps any arguement.

Anyway, I agree that the more pressing issue is the multitudes of slaves in Tevinter rather than the troubles of the Circle mages. Which, to me, seem small in comparison.

[paptschik]

It always amuses me how with the game, I totally support the mages for the most part.
That is, i think the mages should get a better situation....overall that is. But that doesn't mean I hate Templars.
All the mages I view as antagonists? I kill them, without hesitation and happily. Tevinter slaver? Go die a horrible death! Dalish who wants to be left alone? Poor circle mages? I'll support you to hell and back.
In DA2 I always helped the mages (but Anders had to die)...it just always seemed fair in that moment to me. It seemed to be the right decision.
But whenever I read some of the pro-mage posts on the forum....I just really want to have a kill-all-mages stance...probably because it often comes across like everything that is not a mage is viewed as less than human. Like, just because mages are treated badly, things like slavery in Tevinter are suddenly excusable. As if two wrongs make a right.
Not saying that people say it, but that's how it sometimes comes across and it does so a bit more than the mage-hate from the other extreme.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Adanu wrote...
Barring the personal attack... Ireland is one small corner of the world. The circles are worldwide. Trying to compare them is like comparing an apple to a watermelon. They're both edible... but they are totally different otherwise.

Thedas is not the world. It's a single continent roughly the size of and based on Europe. There are many lands beyond its borders, such as the lands where the kossith came from. We just haven't travelered there yet.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I generally free slaves whenever
I find some. And I generally free mages if I'm at all able to. I don't
see why one should inerfere with the other.

I don't see
why anyone would want to focus on fighting the Chantry when the true
opressors still stand in the North as a permanent reminder of the worst
mages are capable of.
I'm hopeful these new glimpsed Tevinter enemy
NPCs means they will finally be an enemy faction in DA3 rather than just
some random slavers.

Because charity starts at home?

"Why do people volunteer to work at local homeless shelters and animal rescue facilities when they could be in Africa helping peole who 'really' need it?"

The Tevinter are not 'true' oppressors. The fact that they are oppressors does not mean the Chantry is not oppressive. It very clearly is, and to multiple groups at once. Given the Chantry's behaviour not just towards mages, but also elves and any country that isn't Orlais, I'd argue that they are no better than Tevinter. At least in Tevinter, slavery is equal-opportunity.

[ultimatekotorfan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...
You're kidding, right? Pistols and nuclear bombs are created for the express purpose of killing people. Their lethality is intended upon their creation. Mages in DA are actual sentient people who are simply born different than mundane people. The Circle is essentially deciding that (hypothetically) because gay people have the power of telekinesis at birth, they should be locked up and monitored as a "potential" menace to society. 

Which is utterly irrelevant. "Intened upon creation" is not an argument for anything since it plays no role in aything.

Mages are dangerous. Period. Undisputed fact.
They are not the same as mundanes. Period. Undisputed fact.

To treat different things exactly the same is idotic. Period. Undisputed fact.

Putting "Period. Undisputed fact." behind each of your claims in no way validifies them.

My point was that when people compare guns and mages it's done as if magic and bullets have the exact same purpose and when used, the exact same result. Is magic potentially dangerous? Sure. But comparing an inanimate gun that when discharged almost always has an intended harmful effect, while a mage can think for themselves and (besides in cases of possession) make a conscious decision as to whether or not they'll cause others harm or engage in blood magic.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Adanu wrote...
Barring the personal attack... Ireland is one small corner of the world. The circles are worldwide. Trying to compare them is like comparing an apple to a watermelon. They're both edible... but they are totally different otherwise.

Thedas is not the world. It's a single continent roughly the size of and based on Europe. There are many lands beyond its borders, such as the lands where the kossith came from. We just haven't travelered there yet.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I generally free slaves whenever
I find some. And I generally free mages if I'm at all able to. I don't
see why one should inerfere with the other.

I don't see
why anyone would want to focus on fighting the Chantry when the true
opressors still stand in the North as a permanent reminder of the worst
mages are capable of.
I'm hopeful these new glimpsed Tevinter enemy
NPCs means they will finally be an enemy faction in DA3 rather than just
some random slavers.

Because charity starts at home?

"Why do people volunteer to work at local homeless shelters and animal rescue facilities when they could be in Africa helping peole who 'really' need it?"

The Tevinter are not 'true' oppressors. The fact that they are oppressors does not mean the Chantry is not oppressive. It very clearly is, and to multiple groups at once. Given the Chantry's behaviour not just towards mages, but also elves and any country that isn't Orlais, I'd argue that they are no better than Tevinter. At least in Tevinter, slavery is equal-opportunity.

I find it hard to believe that slavery has an "at least." Also I think in Tevinter it's only legal to enslave elves. It hight happen to other races on the down low, but I would hardly call it "equal-opportunity."

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Adanu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...
You're kidding, right? Pistols and nuclear bombs are created for the express purpose of killing people. Their lethality is intended upon their creation. Mages in DA are actual sentient people who are simply born different than mundane people. The Circle is essentially deciding that (hypothetically) because gay people have the power of telekinesis at birth, they should be locked up and monitored as a "potential" menace to society. 

Which is utterly irrelevant. "Intened upon creation" is not an argument for anything since it plays no role in aything.

Mages are dangerous. Period. Undisputed fact.
They are not the same as mundanes. Period. Undisputed fact.

To treat different things exactly the same is idotic. Period. Undisputed fact.

How about... no.

[BlueMagitek]

^ Mages are dangerous. No normal child can do what Connor did. Imagine the same thing happening in an Alienage, except it would happen a lot more frequency because a non noble would suffer much more hardship and death.

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote...
I find it hard to believe that slavery has a "silver lining." Also I think in Tevinter it's only legal to enslave elves. It hight happen to other races on the down low, but I would hardly call it "equal-opportunity."

Slavery still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elves lured into ships by the prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? And humans fall prey to this, too.

source: http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

And in DA2, when Isabela confronts Hayder about the nature of her cargo, she doesn't say "they were elves", she says "they were people", implying a mix of races. Elven slavery may be more common, but that's because of the deeply racist attitudes that are still ingrained in Thedas as a whole. It's not at all specific to Tevinter.

I never said slavery had a silver lining, it's still terrible. But objectively, Tevinter is still more fair than other nations in Thedas. It's the only country where non-human minorities even have the opportunity to advance to any sort of position of power.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

BoBear wrote...
I find it hard to believe that slavery has a "silver lining." Also I think in Tevinter it's only legal to enslave elves. It might happen to other races on the down low, but I would hardly call it "equal-opportunity."

Slavery still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elves lured into ships by the prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? And humans fall prey to this, too.

source: http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

And in DA2, when Isabela confronts Hayder about the nature of her cargo, she doesn't say "they were elves", she says "they were people", implying a mix of races. Elven slavery may be more common, but that's because of the deeply racist attitudes that are still ingrained in Thedas as a whole. It's not at all specific to Tevinter.

I never said slavery had a silver lining, it's still terrible. But objectively, Tevinter is still more fair than other nations in Thedas. It's the only country where non-human minorities even have the opportunity to advance to any sort of position of power.

I changed "silver lining" to "at least" because I realized afterward that it wasn't the right way to say what I wanted to say. That's my bad, sorry.

Anyway, in Tevinter it is only legal to enslave elves. And I acknowledged that it happens to other races to but since it's not actually legal to enslave those other races I really don't see it as equal opportunity.

You can  see were it says that it's legal to enslave elves under the culture section: http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

Tevinter is a Magocracy, only mages hold power:

"The Imperium today is a magocracy. Political power is solely in the hands of the magisters, who come only from the ranks of the Circle. Every young mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice because it's the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves."

Source:  http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Magisters

So even though elven mages might be able to hold power, both mundane humans and elves can't. Again not equal opportunity

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...
Because charity starts at home?

"Why do people volunteer to work at local homeless shelters and animal rescue facilities when they could be in Africa helping peole who 'really' need it?"

The Tevinter are not 'true' oppressors. The fact that they are oppressors does not mean the Chantry is not oppressive. It very clearly is, and to multiple groups at once. Given the Chantry's behaviour not just towards mages, but also elves and any country that isn't Orlais, I'd argue that they are no better than Tevinter. At least in Tevinter, slavery is equal-opportunity.

How does the Chantry oppress other nations, or even just the Elves? If you are referring to the fact that the Chantry supported Orlais in the invasion of Ferelden, then that is hardly an act of oppression, but rather a political one. If you are referring to the Alienages, then I must inform you that they are not created by the Chantry, but by the nations' cities. The Chantry are the sole reason that Elves were not utterly exterminated after the Exalted March actually, since it was the Chantry that ordered every city in every nation, to offer refuge to the Elves who chose to live amongst the humans.
And the slavery in Tevinter is most certainly not equal-oppertunity. The only slave in Tevinter that will ever rise above station, are the ones born with magical talents. Every otyher slave is doomed to a life of slavery.

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote...
I changed "silver lining" to "at least" because I realized afterward that it wasn't the right way to say what I wanted to say. That's my bad, sorry.

Anyway, in Tevinter it is only legal to enslave elves. And I acknowledged that it happens to other races to but since it's not actually legal to enslave those other races I really don't see it as equal opportunity.

You can  see were it says that it's legal to enslave elves under the culture section: http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

I see where it says that it is legal to enslave elves. I do not see where it says that it is illegal to enslave humans.

Tevinter is a Magocracy, only mages hold power:

"The Imperium today is a magocracy. Political power is solely in the hands of the magisters, who come only from the ranks of the Circle. Every young mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice because it's the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves."

Source:  http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Magisters

So even though elven mages might be able to hold power, both mundane humans and elves can't. Again not equal opportunity

I said that slavery was equal opportunity, because anyone, human, elf, mage or mundane, canbe a slave.

The mages make up the ruling class, but there are still possibilities for advancement available to non-mages, like the elven woman in Origins who oversees the shipment of the elven slaves taken from the Denrim alienage. She specifically says that she sees herself as a citizen of Minrathous first, and an elf second.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How does the Chantry oppress other nations, or even just the Elves? If you are referring to the fact that the Chantry supported Orlais in the invasion of Ferelden, then that is hardly an act of oppression, but rather a political one.

When you invade a nation, you are oppressing it. 

Saying it is a political act does not mean it is not oppression. Oppression is itself a political act.

If you are referring to the Alienages, then I must inform you that they are not created by the Chantry, but by the nations' cities. The Chantry are the sole reason that Elves were not utterly exterminated after the Exalted March actually, since it was the Chantry that ordered every city in every nation, to offer refuge to the Elves who chose to live amongst the humans.

How very generous of the Chantry to allow the elves to live in squalor after destroying their homeland and culture!

Allowing people to live only if they adhere to your standards and beliefs is not kindness. It is the exact definition of oppression.

And the slavery in Tevinter is most certainly not equal-oppertunity. The only slave in Tevinter that will ever rise above station, are the ones born with magical talents. Every otyher slave is doomed to a life of slavery.

False. See my reply to BoBear. Non-mages may not be in the ruling class of the senate, but they can hold positions of authority nonetheless, which is more than can be said for mages or elves or dwarves in any other nation of Thedas.