1297 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How does the Chantry oppress other nations, or even just the Elves? If you are referring to the fact that the Chantry supported Orlais in the invasion of Ferelden, then that is hardly an act of oppression, but rather a political one.

When you invade a nation, you are oppressing it. 

Saying it is a political act does not mean it is not oppression. Oppression is itself a political act.

Hmm... As I recall it was Orlais, not the Chantry, that invaded Ferelden. But then again, memory is a tricky thing.

Plaintiff wrote...

If you are referring to the Alienages, then I must inform you that they are not created by the Chantry, but by the nations' cities. The Chantry are the sole reason that Elves were not utterly exterminated after the Exalted March actually, since it was the Chantry that ordered every city in every nation, to offer refuge to the Elves who chose to live amongst the humans.

How very generous of the Chantry to allow the elves to live in squalor after destroying their homeland and culture!

Allowing people to live only if they adhere to your standards and beliefs is not kindness. It is the exact definition of oppression.

You realize that the Chantry merely issued the order, it was the nations themselves that chose the living areas and conditions of the Elves. But I am not surprised to see that you try to pin that on the Chantry aswell.

Plaintiff wrote...

And the slavery in Tevinter is most certainly not equal-oppertunity. The only slave in Tevinter that will ever rise above station, are the ones born with magical talents. Every otyher slave is doomed to a life of slavery.

False. See my reply to BoBear. Non-mages may not be in the ruling class of the senate, but they can hold positions of authority nonetheless, which is more than can be said for mages or elves or dwarves in any other nation of Thedas.

As I recall there is nothing in the game to indicate the Elf you mention was ever a slave, hence what you claim is based on nothing. Granted it has been a while since I have heard the conversation, so there might be something, but I don't recall it as such.
Remember also that while Elves are often enslaved in Tevinter, not ALL Elves are, and there are some Elves in Tevinter (like the one you mention) that may achieve some sort of status, despite not having magic.

[Xilizhra]

As I recall there is nothing in the game to indicate the Elf you mention was ever a slave, hence what you claim is based on nothing. Granted it has been a while since I have heard the conversation, so there might be something, but I don't recall it as such.

Varania was manumitted and Fenris thought that she was a tailor, not a mage, and was unsurprised at her being freed. There clearly is precedent for nonmage slaves being freed.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

BoBear wrote...
I changed "silver lining" to "at least" because I realized afterward that it wasn't the right way to say what I wanted to say. That's my bad, sorry.

Anyway, in Tevinter it is only legal to enslave elves. And I acknowledged that it happens to other races to but since it's not actually legal to enslave those other races I really don't see it as equal opportunity.

You can  see were it says that it's legal to enslave elves under the culture section: http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

I see where it says that it is legal to enslave elves. I do not see where it says that it is illegal to enslave humans.

Tevinter is a Magocracy, only mages hold power:

"The Imperium today is a magocracy. Political power is solely in the hands of the magisters, who come only from the ranks of the Circle. Every young mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice because it's the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves."

Source:  http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Magisters

So even though elven mages might be able to hold power, both mundane humans and elves can't. Again not equal opportunity

I said that slavery was equal opportunity, because anyone, human, elf, mage or mundane, canbe a slave.

The mages make up the ruling class, but there are still possibilities for advancement available to non-mages, like the elven woman in Origins who oversees the shipment of the elven slaves taken from the Denrim alienage. She specifically says that she sees herself as a citizen of Minrathous first, and an elf second.

You said, and I quote:  "It's the only country where non-human minorities even have the opportunity to advance to any sort of position of power."

This is not true which is what I was pointing out, not that no one could advance at all, ever. Unless you are a mage you cannot hold power. By refusing to let non-mages hold power they descriminate against non-mages.  Tevinter is not a place for equal opportunity. No place with a slave system can be equal opportunity. And you'll never convince me that an "equal opportunity" slave system makes them a better country than those who have outlawed slavery.

 

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:40 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How does the Chantry oppress other nations, or even just the Elves? If you are referring to the fact that the Chantry supported Orlais in the invasion of Ferelden, then that is hardly an act of oppression, but rather a political one.

When you invade a nation, you are oppressing it. 

Saying it is a political act does not mean it is not oppression. Oppression is itself a political act.

Hmm... As I recall it was Orlais, not the Chantry, that invaded Ferelden. But then again, memory is a tricky thing.

My impression is that Orlais did the actual invading, and that the Chantry's job was to preach about how justified it was and how they had the Maker's authority to do so. So the Chantry was... I'd say an accessory, if we wanted to borrow the legal term.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Hmm... As I recall it was Orlais, not the Chantry, that invaded Ferelden. But then again, memory is a tricky thing.

Yes, Orlais invaded Ferelden. The Chantry supported tht invasion and one of the antagonists of The Stolen Throne is a Revered Mother.

The Chantry also oppressed Ferelden more directly at the end of DA:O, by refusing to let it make its own choices about how to treat mages. It also tries to oppress Orzammar with an Exalted March, if a Circle is created there.

You realize that the Chantry merely issued the order,

The order to attack, you mean? 

it was the nations themselves that chose the living areas and conditions of the Elves. But I am not surprised to see that you try to pin that on the Chantry aswell.

For all that you claim that the Chantry is some sort of benevolent force that spews only love and sunshine, I don't see them doing anything to improve those living conditions.

The Chantry declared the Exalted March on the Dales, so it is absolutely culpable in the present state of the elves. Further, it has the political clout to change that current state if it wanted to. It doesn't, however, because it is a racist institution concerned with nothing but the consolidation and maintenance of its own power.

As I recall there is nothing in the game to indicate the Elf you mention was ever a slave, hence what you claim is based on nothing. Granted it has been a while since I have heard the conversation, so there might be something, but I don't recall it as such.

I never said she was a slave in the past. That's not relevent. The fact is that she is a non-mage and a non-human in a position of power, which demonstrates that Tevinter is less bigoted than the Chantry and the other nations of Thedas.

All I said was that in Tevinter, slavery is equal-opportunity, because anyone can be a slave. It is not restricted to race or lack of magical ability.

Remember also that while Elves are often enslaved in Tevinter, not ALL Elves are, and there are some Elves in Tevinter (like the one you mention) that may achieve some sort of status, despite not having magic.

Which is exactly what I just said. Thanks for making my point for me. Again.

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote..
You said, and I quote:  "It's the only country where non-human minorities even have the opportunity to advance to any sort of position of power."

Yes, I did say that. Did you know that there are positions of power other than "ultimate ruler of everything"? Or did you think that everyone in Tevinter was either a magister or a slave, and that there was nothing in between?

This is not true which is what I was pointing out, not that no one could advance at all, ever.

 You've misread me. "Any sort of" does not mean what you think it means.

Unless you are a mage you cannot hold power.

 But you can. There are ranks between "slave" and "magister" that wield authority.

By refusing to let non-mages hold power they descriminate against non-mages.

But they don't refuse anything of the kind. 

Tevinter is not a place for equal opportunity. No place with a slave system can be equal opportunity.

I said slavery is "equal-opportunity", meaning anyone can be a slave. I did not say that Tevinter as a whole was equal-opportunity, merely that their slave institution was open to any and all.

I was using sarcastic irony.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:48 .

[Warden661]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]BoBear wrote..
You said, and I quote:  "It's the only country where non-human minorities even have the opportunity to advance to any sort of position of power."[/quote]

Yes, I did say that. Did you know that there are positions of pwer other than "ultimate ruler of everything"? Or did you think that everyone in Tevinter was either a magister or a slave, and that there was nothing in between?

[quote]This is not true which is what I was pointing out, not that no one could advance at all, ever. Unless you are a mage you cannot hold power. By refusing to let non-mages hold power they descriminate against non-mages.  Tevinter is not a place for equal opportunity. No place with a slave system can be equal opportunity. [/quote]
You've misread me. "Any sort of" does not mean what you think it means.[/quote]
 
What does any sort of  mean then? I don't see how it has more then one meaning. [/quote]

I was talking political power which I see as the only true power there is. I dont think that being the head of a team of slave traders gives you any real power. By not having power in the government, non-mages are not equaly represented which really doesn't give you any power at all.

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

But you can. There are ranks between "slave" and "magister" that wield authority.

And what are those ranks in between? Just because they have a title doesn't mean they have power.

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 05:06 .

[silentassassin264]

The Tevinter hunters and presumably Templar's though we never really see Tevinter Templar's.

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote... 
What does any sort of  mean then? I don't see how it has more then one meaning.

It depends entirely upon the context of the rest of the sentence.

When I say "Tevinter is the only place that a non-human can rise to any sort of position of power", that is the same as saying "Tevinter is the only place where a non-human can rise to any position of power at all".

Relative to the position of a slave, every position is a position of power.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

BoBear wrote... 
What does any sort of  mean then? I don't see how it has more then one meaning.

It depends entirely upon the context of the rest of the sentence.

When I say "Tevinter is the only place that a non-human can rise to any sort of position of power", that is the same as saying "Tevinter is the only place where a non-human can rise to any position of power at all".

Relative to the position of a slave, every position is a position of power.

And as I've said, just because you give someone a title doesn't mean you give them power. The only positions of power that I know of are held by mages. Just because you live better than a slave doesn't mean you have power. And if your statement: "Relative to the position of a slave, every position is a position of power." is true, then Tevinter isn't the only place in Thedas were non-human minorities can rise to places of power. Every other place allows country in Thedas allows this as well.

Also Mage elves can become First Enchanters in the Circles. That's a place of power.

Also (and I don't know if you said anything to the contrary of this. I'm just making a statement) I don't think that the slaves themselves can rise above a slave in Tevinter. If there is evidence against this I'll try to find it. Unless they're a mage, maybe? I don't know. Again, I'll look it up.

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote...

Also Mage elves can become First Enchanters in the Circles. That's a place of power.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Also (and I don't know if you said anything to the contrary of this. I'm just making a statement) I don't think that the slaves themselves can rise above a slave in Tevinter. If there is evidence against this I'll try to find it. Unless they're a mage, maybe? I don't know. Again, I'll look it up.

Varania, Fenris's sister, was a former slave who became free and then sold her brother out for the chance to become a magister.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

BoBear wrote...

Also Mage elves can become First Enchanters in the Circles. That's a place of power.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Laugh all you want, it doesn't make it any less true. When you ask if the mages can help with the Blight during DA:O Knight Commander Greagoir says only that the First Enchenater is the head of all the mages and only he can make that decision.


A first enchanter officially has a broad range of powers. Their permission or consent is needed:For a mage to leave the tower;
For templars to summon an apprentice for the Harrowing;
For templars to make a mage Tranquil;
For templars to move overtly against a Circle mage suspected of practicing forbidden magic
http://dragonage.wik...First_Enchanter

It does go on to say that: " the extent to which the templars allow a first enchanter to exercise their powers varies from tower to tower"

But just because Meredith didn't allow Orsino much power doesn't mean they don't have it anywhere else.

Varania, Fenris's sister, was a former slave who became free and then sold her brother out for the chance to become a magister.

Alright that solves that matter of mage slaves but I would still like to know of any evidence showing non-mage slaves becoming free.

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[thats1evildude]

BoBear wrote...

Laugh all you want, it doesn't make it any less true. When you ask if the mages can help with the Blight during DA:O Knight Commander Greagoir says only that the First Enchenater is the head of all the mages and only he can make that decision.

Because Greagoir is dodgy as f**k. Honestly, he probably could, but his approach to the situation is to throw up his hands and declare himself out it.

What the First Enchanter has is a few nominal powers afforded to him/her because it helps keep the mages in line if they believe they have some authority. Those powers are quickly ripped away when the templars find it convenient.

BoBear wrote...

[/b][/u]This is not true which is what I was pointing out, not that no one could advance at all, ever. Unless you are a mage you cannot hold power. By refusing to let non-mages hold power they descriminate against non-mages.  Tevinter is not a place for equal opportunity. No place with a slave system can be equal opportunity. And you'll never convince me that an "equal opportunity" slave system makes them a better country than those who have outlawed slavery. 

You are correct on those points, however. Tevinter's system is pretty monstrous.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:31 .

[Liamv2]

Ok no more arguing lets get back to waffles

[Herr Uhl]

thats1evildude wrote...

BoBear wrote...

Laugh all you want, it doesn't make it any less true. When you ask if the mages can help with the Blight during DA:O Knight Commander Greagoir says only that the First Enchenater is the head of all the mages and only he can make that decision.

Because Greagoir is dodgy as f**k. Honestly, he probably could, but his approach to the situation is to throw up his hands and declare himself out it.

What the First Enchanter has is a few nominal powers afforded to him/her because it helps keep the mages in line if they believe they have some authority. Those powers are quickly ripped away when the templars find it convenient.

I'm not convinced that they only have "nominal powers" unless the Knight Commander is dodgy. Our only other example (in the games, have not read books) is Meredith, and I doubt she is the norm any more than Gregoir.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 novembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[Adanu]

Anyone who thinks First Enchanters in the circle system have any power need only look at the Mage origin quest. He can't act on his own... he needs proof to bring to the Templars.

Repeat that, he can't deal with the situation on his own.

The First Enchanters under the Templars serve at the sufferance of the Templars in command of their circle... not for the mages themselves.

When Orsino tried to exercise a "NO!" against Meredith, he was met with the Templars yelling at him.

Anyone who thinks FIrst Enchanters have any sort of power is deluding themselves.

[SeptimusMagistos]

BoBear wrote...

It does go on to say that: " the extent to which the templars allow a first enchanter to exercise their powers varies from tower to tower"

But just because Meredith didn't allow Orsino much power doesn't mean they don't have it anywhere else.

Yeah, if the First Enchanter needs permission from the Templars to exercise his power and they can deny that permission and make decisions on their own, then the First Enchanter doesn't have any real power. They're just a glorified puppet.

If the First Enchanter had inalienable powers and any Templar trying to interfere with those was summarily stripped of their rank? We'd have something to talk about. But somehow I just don't see the Chantry agreeing to such an arrangement.

[MisterJB]

Adanu wrote...

Anyone who thinks First Enchanters in the circle system have any power need only look at the Mage origin quest. He can't act on his own... he needs proof to bring to the Templars.

Repeat that, he can't deal with the situation on his own.

The First Enchanters under the Templars serve at the sufferance of the Templars in command of their circle... not for the mages themselves.

When Orsino tried to exercise a "NO!" against Meredith, he was met with the Templars yelling at him.

Anyone who thinks FIrst Enchanters have any sort of power is deluding themselves.

And similarly, the Knight Commander needs the First Enchanter's approval in order to select an apprentice for Tranquilization, Harrowing, etc.
Had Irving been allowed to deal with the situation on his own, he would have forgiven Jowan who actually was a blood mage so, this system where power is shared is the best solution.

But, just like with any other system, the degree to which is respected depends on diverse factors. In Kirkwall, Orsino and Meredith were activelly working against each other while in Ferelden, Greagoir and Irving respected each other's authority going so far as to Gregoir accepting Irving's word over Cullen's and the situation there during the Blight was catastrophic.
It's not a perfect system but to declare that ALL First Enchanters on Thedas are mere clay in the templar's hands is far too simplistic.

[Adanu]

MisterJB wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Anyone who thinks First Enchanters in the circle system have any power need only look at the Mage origin quest. He can't act on his own... he needs proof to bring to the Templars.

Repeat that, he can't deal with the situation on his own.

The First Enchanters under the Templars serve at the sufferance of the Templars in command of their circle... not for the mages themselves.

When Orsino tried to exercise a "NO!" against Meredith, he was met with the Templars yelling at him.

Anyone who thinks FIrst Enchanters have any sort of power is deluding themselves.

And similarly, the Knight Commander needs the First Enchanter's approval in order to select an apprentice for Tranquilization, Harrowing, etc.

He needs the FEs expertise, not his approval. There's a difference.

[ioannisdenton]

In DA2 with my Mage Hawke (3rd playthrough) i supported Templars. After i saw that the mages always resorted to blood magic and what happneed to Hawkes mother i supported the templars.
I do not endorse the chantry just the control of mages. Except Morrigan.
Cause she is Cool and a **** we all love

[ioannisdenton]

People sympathise wth the mages most of the time But the templars are preety innocent too. they have to deal with mages.
In da2 in the begginig i was slaughtering all these templars but then i got sorry for them.

[Warden661]

Adanu wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Anyone who thinks First Enchanters in the circle system have any power need only look at the Mage origin quest. He can't act on his own... he needs proof to bring to the Templars.

Repeat that, he can't deal with the situation on his own.

The First Enchanters under the Templars serve at the sufferance of the Templars in command of their circle... not for the mages themselves.

When Orsino tried to exercise a "NO!" against Meredith, he was met with the Templars yelling at him.

Anyone who thinks FIrst Enchanters have any sort of power is deluding themselves.

And similarly, the Knight Commander needs the First Enchanter's approval in order to select an apprentice for Tranquilization, Harrowing, etc.

He needs the FEs expertise, not his approval. There's a difference.

No the KC needs the FE's consent. That is stated clearly in my post which has a source link.

Modifié par BoBear, 22 novembre 2012 - 11:57 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

ioannisdenton wrote...

In DA2 with my Mage Hawke (3rd playthrough) i supported Templars. After i saw that the mages always resorted to blood magic and what happneed to Hawkes mother i supported the templars.
I do not endorse the chantry just the control of mages. Except Morrigan.
Cause she is Cool and a **** we all love

Mages don't always turn to blood magic. Kirkwall's Gallows is explicitly stated to be worse than any other Circle.

[FaWa]

Templars choose their job. They risk their lives to make sure mages stay oppressed

Its so simple.

No Templars = No angry mages turning to blood magic. Its so easy idgi