1297 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

FaWa wrote...

Templars choose their job. They risk their lives to make sure mages stay oppressed

Its so simple.

No Templars = No angry mages turning to blood magic. Its so easy idgi

Then what in the fruit loops made the Tevinter into what they are since the fall of Arlathan?

[Yuoaman]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...
I don't know, some STDs are far more frightening than any demonspawn...

A wise person hinted that that is what magic is for.

I guess the mages win again?

[Fredward]

-shakes head- Opressing someone, taking away someone's rights, because of an accident of birth is wrong. No matter the reason or justification. No mage has ever chosen to be one and yet because they are they get to be imprisoned for their entire life. Some mages have never even left their Circle for crying out loud! They spend their lives punished for maybies. Maybe they'll turn to blood magic, maybe they'll become abominations. It's as ridiculous as it is disgusting.

Lets not forget the entire justification for the Circle system is basically "they were mean to a lady a thousand years ago" at this moment. Oppresing an entire people for a thousand year old crime is ludicrous. The Chantry seems fond of that though, just look at the elves. Not to mention that the Chantry seems to feel no cognitive dissonance in trotting out the Circles en masse whenever they are needed. Without the Circles the Qunari would probably be in charge of half of Thedas by now. Can you think of a more dangerous situation than letting a bunch of evil mages just waiting for a chance to turn to blood magic and become demons than letting them hurl magical death at people trying to kill them? Heh. Justifying the Circles' existence after that with the argument "mages have no self control!" must have been interesting.

Furthermore people are fond of pointing out how potentially horrible it would be to let mages run free, often pointing out the Tevninter Imperium or going "OOOOH ABOMINATIONS! GRRRRR! ARRRRGH!" Firstly the Tevinter Imperium is a very good example of how mages can totally be in control, douches sure, but in control douches. The Imperium has stood through the First Blight (which was rilly, rilly bad) Andraste's rebellion, several Exalted Marches and a ongoing war with the Qun. Which is really impressive because if you look at Kirkwall Qunari apparently pwn everything. I'm reminded of that one place in Hightown where there is a single dead Qunari surrounded by like 8 dead city watchmen. Now see this kind of tencaity is hardly the hallmark of a government which frequently turns into monsters and eat people. The Imperium is also just chock full of blood mages, if you listen to Fenny, so it just goes to show you that there is no real correlation between blood magic and evil, slather at the mouth abominations.

NOW the other thing people bring up is that because the Tevinter Imperium mages took over society ALL mages EVERYWHERE will inevitably do exactly the same. Now ignoring the moral concept that a majority ruled oppresive regime is just as wrong as a minority ruled oppresive regime this is totally false equivalency. The Tevinter Imperium's entire culture is based on mage superiority. They established themselves as a power after learning magic from the elves and being like a bazillion times better at it, they conquered the world, through magic. So yeah, it is utterly unsuprising that the mages still rule there. Not to mention the whole Dumat, one of their gods, whispering to one of their mage kings, the sikirits of blood magic thing. Now. Lets compare this society, where magic is an intrinsic part of their history/culture/religion to ALL the other nations of Thedas where magic is suppressed and mages subjugated.

When the Circles win their freedom there will be extremists, there always are, who will call for a mage ruled society. Such is the way of things, when an oppressed group throws of the shackled of, uhm... well opression there are always groups that want to reverse the situation immediatly. Like a game of ****** for tat. BUT they will not be the majority because fighting for their freedom ≠ asusming full control, they'd be begging for a concentrated effort by all the nations of Thedas (excluding Tevinter I'd assume) to smack their asses down in that case. Plus everyone who'd want to be in charge would just merrily skip of to Tevinter to go be evil and free their, since they'd be free and they could do that.

This is all ignoring the fact that mages could be incredibly good for society. The Chantry doesn't allow mages to study bodies because OHEMGEEBLOODMAGIC but think about the advancement in healing, agriculture, architecture etc if mages could have an active hand in helping shape society.

So ANYWAY basically what I'm saying is that mages should be free and the disgusting morally questionable Chantry should be a smoking hole in the ground. xp

[thats1evildude]

FaWa wrote...

No Templars = No angry mages turning to blood magic. Its so easy idgi

But mages turn to blood magic for reasons unrelated to templars and used blood magic before templars even existed.

And those uses are invariably evil, with only a handful of exceptions.

[thats1evildude]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

-shakes head- Opressing someone, taking away someone's rights, because of an accident of birth is wrong. No matter the reason or justification. No mage has ever chosen to be one and yet because they are they get to be imprisoned for their entire life. Some mages have never even left their Circle for crying out loud! They spend their lives punished for maybies. Maybe they'll turn to blood magic, maybe they'll become abominations. It's as ridiculous as it is disgusting.

You say "maybe" as in "maybe no mage will ever turn into an abomination again!" But as long as there are mages, there will be abominations, as there will be maleficars who use their powers for evil.

So what about the rights of those innocent people who get torn to pieces by demons or used as sacrifices in blood magic rituals? What about those bystanders killed during Anders' act of terrorism in Kirkwall? Or virtually everyone who doesn't hold the title of "magister" in the Tevinter Imperium?

Why is their suffering outweighed by that of the mages, who get to spend their lives in the relative comfort and security of the Circle of Magi? I can assure you, the mages have it better off than the city elves or the casteless dwarves or many of the dirt-poor peasants of Thedas.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 novembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

thats1evildude wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

-shakes head- Opressing someone, taking away someone's rights, because of an accident of birth is wrong. No matter the reason or justification. No mage has ever chosen to be one and yet because they are they get to be imprisoned for their entire life. Some mages have never even left their Circle for crying out loud! They spend their lives punished for maybies. Maybe they'll turn to blood magic, maybe they'll become abominations. It's as ridiculous as it is disgusting.

You say "maybe" as in "maybe no mage will ever turn into an abomination again!" But as long as there are mages, there will be abominations, as there will be maleficars who use their powers for evil.

So what about the rights of those innocent people who get torn to pieces by demons or used as sacrifices in blood magic rituals? What about those bystanders killed during Anders' act of terrorism in Kirkwall? Why are they acceptable collateral damage?

Why are the innocents who suffer because of magic of less importance than the mages, who get to spend their lives in the relative comfort and security of the Circle of Magi? I can assure you, the mages have it better off than the city elves or the casteless dwarves or many of the dirt-farming peasants of Thedas.

So punish the mages who commit crimes. After the crimes are committed, like you do with literally any other type of crime.

[thats1evildude]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So punish the mages who commit crimes. After the crimes are committed, like you do with literally any other type of crime.

How can one anticipate when a mage is going to be possessed by a demon? It can happen at any time, without warning. At best, the templars can only contain the threat.

And the atrocities that can be committed by mages are far greater than that of your average criminal. Zathrian, a mage, created a werewolf curse that ensared countless innocents and lasted for centuries. The Baroness, a blood mage, trapped an entire village in the Fade, leaving their physical bodies to rot. Orsino became the Harvester, a creature so powerful that it could have slaughtered half of Kirkwall if Hawke hadn't stopped it.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 novembre 2012 - 07:53 .

[Fredward]

thats1evildude wrote...
You say "maybe" as in "maybe no mage will ever turn into an abomination again!" But as long as there are mages, there will be abominations, as there will be maleficars who use their powers for evil.

So what about the rights of those innocent people who get torn to pieces by demons or used as sacrifices in blood magic rituals? What about those bystanders killed during Anders' act of terrorism in Kirkwall? Or virtually everyone who doesn't hold the title of "magister" in the Tevinter Imperium?

Why is their suffering outweighed by that of the mages, who get to spend their lives in the relative comfort and security of the Circle of Magi? I can assure you, the mages have it better off than the city elves or the casteless dwarves or many of the dirt-poor peasants of Thedas.

No that is not what I said at all. Of course mages will still turn into abominations, just like they do in the Circles. The Circles don't fix anything they just narrow down the scope of the issue. And what's more the treatment of mages in Circles drive many a mage to abominationhood Kirkwall being a prime example. As for the crimes mages commit... just because their crimes, commited by a minority mind you, is on a larger scale than what normies can commit they ALL deserve to be locked up? Isabela drowned a ship full of elves, Loghain sparked a civil war and Howe murdered an entire family. You don't need to be a mage to be a monster.

Also Merrill is a fine example of how being a blood mage does not have to mean killing innocents to fuel your magic. Merrill has never used anyone's blood other than her own to fuel her magic. The individual should be judged for the crimes they commit, not the collective.

Also a gilded cage is still a cage. Not that the Circles are gilded cages to begin with. "The templars always watch us" rape and Tranquility also have struck me as necessities for "relative comfort and security." As for the city elves, they are in that position because of the Chantry, which as I have already stated needs to be turned into a burning crater.

[thats1evildude]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And what's more the treatment of mages in Circles drive many a mage to abominationhood Kirkwall being a prime example.

Kirkwall is a unique example because the Veil has been thinned there to allow demons to more readily enter the mortal world. Thus, there are more abominations there than anywhere else, which in turn requires the templars to be more strict than ever.

Incidentally, the thinning of the Veil? Done by mages.

It's funny how everyone seems eager to blame the Chantry for the plight of mages when I keep seeing mages causing the suffering of other mages. COUGH COUGH Anders COUGH COUGH

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

As for the crimes mages commit... just because their crimes, commited by a minority mind you, is on a larger scale than what normies can commit they ALL deserve to be locked up?

It's not just because mages have a greater capacity for destruction than the normals. It's also because the mages ARE victims of a system that turns them into horrific monsters of no fault but their own.

You say that the templars are oppressors, but they're just the counter-measure to an inherently broken system.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Isabela drowned a ship full of elves, Loghain sparked a civil war and Howe murdered an entire family.

All crimes that required accomplices. Loghain could not have committed treason if Ser Cauthrien had said "no." Isabela had a pirate crew. Howe needed an army.

Quentin required no accomplices. Neither did the Baroness, Zathrian, Orsino, Tarohne, Decimus or a bunch of other mages that used their powers for evil.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

You don't need to be a mage to be a monster.

No, you do not. But it sure helps.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Also Merrill is a fine example of how being a blood mage does not have to mean killing innocents to fuel your magic. Merrill has never used anyone's blood other than her own to fuel her magic. The individual should be judged for the crimes they commit, not the collective.

Merrill uses her power responsibly. But she's the exception to the rule. Also, I might note that Merrill could have become a pride abomination were it not for Hawke and Marethari.

We don't re-write laws for exceptions. Virtually all uses of blood magic are for evil purposes; why should one sweet Dalish girl be cause to reverse the ban on it?

If I gave a gun to a small child, he might one day conceivably fire a bullet that kills a serial rapist or a homicidal maniac. But more likely than not, he'll blow his own head off or kill someone around him. Is the chance he might do good outweigh the likelihood he'll harm himself or others?

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Also a gilded cage is still a cage. Not that the Circles are gilded cages to begin with. "The templars always watch us" rape and Tranquility also have struck me as necessities for "relative comfort and security." As for the city elves, they are in that position because of the Chantry, which as I have already stated needs to be turned into a burning crater.

Though the Chantry certainly shares some of the blame, the aristocracy of Thedas and the Tevinter Imperium are more to blame for the plight of elves. And I don't mean just the past Tevinter Imperium; I'm referring to the present version as well.

What we should be doing, rather than worrying about the stupid Chantry, is leading a slave revolt in the Tevinter Imperium and establishing a new elven kingdom on its ashes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 novembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[TEWR]

Incidentally, the thinning of the Veil? Done by mages.

Placement of Mages in a prison located in a region with an extremely thin Veil? And for the record it's something both Templars and Mages are able to sense.

Done by the Chantry.

If both Templars and Mages can sense the thin Veil, and the Circle is created in that area without looking into repairing said Veil -- as much as can be -- I'd find the Chantry to be more at fault.

The Mages may have created the problem, but the Chantry refused to fix it.

So both sides are at fault, but to me it's more the fault of the Chantry.

Virtually all uses of blood magic are for evil purposes

Joining, phylacteries, ability to control the flow of blood (which while often used maliciously, can be used beneficially), the ability to heal wounds, the ability to heal withered crops, amplification of Dalish magic that, in its unaltered state, fought the Taint for a few days and in its altered state cleansed an Eluvian shard of its Blight disease, etc.

Blood Magic is not comprised of uses that are "virtually all evil".

[Lotion Soronarr]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
So punish the mages who commit crimes. After the crimes are committed, like you do with literally any other type of crime.

By that point hunderds have already died. A bit late, ain't it?

And that's reffering to mages that do commit a CRIME.

Is falling to a demon or being tricked by it a crime? I'd say not. After all, it's not like most mages plan or desire to become abominations and kill their friends and family. It certanly doesn't fit the definition of crime.


And yes, hunderds are locked up to ensure safety for hunderds of thousands. It's not a pretty solution, but there is no pretty solution.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Joining, phylacteries, ability to control the flow of blood (which while often used maliciously, can be used beneficially), the ability to heal wounds, the ability to heal withered crops, amplification of Dalish magic that, in its unaltered state, fought the Taint for a few days and in its altered state cleansed an Eluvian shard of its Blight disease, etc.

For half of the things on that list, DG never specificly identified them as "blood magic".
He said they could be seen or interpreted as blood magic.
Not that it is blood magic.

So categorizing anything that hasn't been specificly confirmed to be blood magic as blood magic is jumping the gun.

[Reidbynature]

I think with all the assurances about 'player agency' and such from Bioware that we should expect a story that doesn't simply trample all over our player character on its way to its singular goal.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

-shakes head- Opressing someone, taking away someone's rights, because of an accident of birth is wrong. No matter the reason or justification.

Exceptions prove the rule.
Blanket statemetns like yours are wrong.

No mage has ever chosen to be one and yet because they are they get to be imprisoned for their entire life. Some mages have never even left their Circle for crying out loud! They spend their lives punished for maybies. Maybe they'll turn to blood magic, maybe they'll become abominations. It's as ridiculous as it is disgusting.

Choice is irrelevant. They arne't segregated because of choice. They aren't segregated because of "maybes".
They are segregated because of known, proven dangers.

Lets not forget the entire justification for the Circle system is basically "they were mean to a lady a thousand years ago" at this moment.

Ern...that's not he justification for the Cirlce system.
The Cirlce system keeps the mundanes safe and alive and keeps the mages safe and allows them to be usefull nad alive.

Without the Circles the Qunari would probably be in charge of half of Thedas by now.

Nope.

Furthermore people are fond of pointing out how potentially horrible it would be to let mages run free, often pointing out the Tevninter Imperium or going "OOOOH ABOMINATIONS! GRRRRR! ARRRRGH!" Firstly the Tevinter Imperium is a very good example of how mages can totally be in control, douches sure, but in control douches. The Imperium has stood through the First Blight (which was rilly, rilly bad) Andraste's rebellion, several Exalted Marches and a ongoing war with the Qun. Which is really impressive because if you look at Kirkwall Qunari apparently pwn everything.

People are resillient and they survive even in the harshest of enviroments (if in no other way then by breeding like rabbits). And magisters are pretty powerfull.
So Tevinter still standing proves nothing really.

Also, the qunari attack in Kirkwall was a suicidal one. They never had a chance of victory.

NOW the other thing people bring up is that because the Tevinter Imperium mages took over society ALL mages EVERYWHERE will inevitably do exactly the same.

Over time, probably.
Power corrupts, mages hold the most power.

Plus everyone who'd want to be in charge would just merrily skip of to Tevinter to go be evil and free their, since they'd be free and they could do that.

So Tevinter would be seeing a massive influx of capable mages? Yeah, that will bode well for TheDas.

So ANYWAY basically what I'm saying is that mages should be free and the disgusting morally questionable Chantry should be a smoking hole in the ground. xp

The Chantry should reign supreeme and the disgustingly intellectually and morally broken mage liberation front should be a smoking hole in the ground.

[ioannisdenton]

I support the circle idea but the way it is implemented with all the andraste stuff and the harrowing and the restrictions is kinda oppressive. However it is better than letting all these mages loose.

[Fredward]

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And what's more the treatment of mages in Circles drive many a mage to abominationhood Kirkwall being a prime example.[/QUOTE]

Kirkwall is a unique example because the Veil has been thinned there to allow demons to more readily enter the mortal world. Thus, there are more abominations there than anywhere else, which in turn requires the templars to be more strict than ever.

Incidentally, the thinning of the Veil? Done by mages.

It's funny how everyone seems eager to blame the Chantry for the plight of mages when I keep seeing mages causing the suffering of other mages. COUGH COUGH Anders COUGH COUGH

[/QUOTE]

The thinning of the Veil is done by a lot of people dying. No magic required. As someone else pointed out since it is so very obvious that the Veil is so thin in Kirkwall, why keep the circle there? It's a recipe for disaster and the mages ain't the cooks.

And why did Anders do it? Oh wait. Because the Chantry is responsible for the plight of mages. By you know, keeping them locked up for their entire lives and letting Templars have their way with them and such.

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

As for the crimes mages commit... just because their crimes, commited by a minority mind you, is on a larger scale than what normies can commit they ALL deserve to be locked up?[/QUOTE]

It's not just because mages have a greater capacity for destruction than the normals. It's also because the mages ARE victims of a system that turns them into horrific monsters of no fault but their own.

You say that the templars are oppressors, but they're just the counter-measure to an inherently broken system.

[/QUOTE]

They're victims of a system that turns them into monsters through NO FAULT of their own maybe. In Tevinter there are no Templars, or they are owned by the magisters basically, and we must assume that the incidence of turning into abominations is less, or there's a better way to deal with it, seeing as how the Imperium is still standing despite all odds. The Templars are aggravators and instigators, not a counter-measure.

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Isabela drowned a ship full of elves, Loghain sparked a civil war and Howe murdered an entire family.[/QUOTE]

All crimes that required accomplices. Loghain could not have committed treason if Ser Cauthrien had said "no." Isabela had a pirate crew. Howe needed an army.

Quentin required no accomplices. Neither did the Baroness, Zathrian, Orsino, Tarohne, Decimus or a bunch of other mages that used their powers for evil.

[/QUOTE]

I don't see the logic here. More normal people being complicit makes the deed, what? Better? The only difference here is that only one mage needs to be off his rocker (which almost all the mages you mentioned were) to do something bad. Whereas many have to be complicit in the deeds I named. Which is why people should be judged individually, not as a collective.

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Also Merrill is a fine example of how being a blood mage does not have to mean killing innocents to fuel your magic. Merrill has never used anyone's blood other than her own to fuel her magic. The individual should be judged for the crimes they commit, not the collective.[/QUOTE]

Merrill uses her power responsibly. But she's the exception to the rule. Also, I might note that Merrill could have become a pride abomination were it not for Hawke and Marethari.

We don't re-write laws for exceptions. Virtually all uses of blood magic are for evil purposes; why should one sweet Dalish girl be cause to reverse the ban on it?

If I gave a gun to a small child, he might one day conceivably fire a bullet that kills a serial rapist or a homicidal maniac. But more likely than not, he'll blow his own head off or kill someone around him. Is the chance he might do good outweigh the likelihood he'll harm himself or others? [/QUOTE]

Could have being the operative phrase here. Merrill DID mention she'd taken precautions before going to Sundermount, Marethari just assumed Merrill would walk in all doey eyed and get possessed. And keep blood magic banned then, I just want the mages freed. xp

Also mages aren't small children, they're fully grown logical adults. Presumably. Unless they actually ARE kids but w/e.

And just fyi you only need one example to make a point. Merrill proves that blood magic DOES NOT have to be used for evil, it is just the most apparent use for it.

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...
[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Also a gilded cage is still a cage. Not that the Circles are gilded cages to begin with. "The templars always watch us" rape and Tranquility also have struck me as necessities for "relative comfort and security." As for the city elves, they are in that position because of the Chantry, which as I have already stated needs to be turned into a burning crater.[/QUOTE]

Though the Chantry certainly shares some of the blame, the aristocracy of Thedas and the Tevinter Imperium are more to blame for the plight of elves. And I don't mean just the past Tevinter Imperium; I'm referring to the present version as well.

What we should be doing, rather than worrying about the stupid Chantry, is leading a slave revolt in the Tevinter Imperium and establishing a new elven kingdom on its ashes. [/QUOTE]

Eh. The Chantry reneged on the deal made with Shartan and ordered an Exalted March on the Dales, which was the NEW elven homeland, the Tevinters sinking Arlathan was in the past, solved as it were, and then made the elves live as segregated second hand citizens. The Chantry did that, the nobles of Thedas are just playing by the rules of the most powerful society in Thedas and their brainwashing.

[quote]Lotion Soronnor wrote...

Choice is irrelevant. They arne't segregated because of choice. They aren't segregated because of "maybes".
They are segregated because of known, proven dangers.
[/QUOTE]

Except that these "known, proven dangers" only applies to some, a minority. The rest of the mages are awfully helpful making money for the Chantry, random Qunari invasions and Blights though.

[quote]Lotion Soronnor wrote...

Ern...that's not he justification for the Cirlce system.
The Cirlce system keeps the mundanes safe and alive and keeps the mages safe and allows them to be usefull nad alive. [/QUOTE]

Useful. Yes the mages certainly are that. The Circles does not however keep the mages safe. They are in fact chucked at demons in the Fade, which seems distinctly unsafe. Not to mention the rapes and abuse. And the emotional neutering. The Circles don't even keep the mundanes safe, as many an apostate has proven. The Circle doesn't work because it keeps the safe ones IN and the badguys, the ones who really WANT to escape, tend to go free and wreak havoc anyway. Not that there ain't exceptions.

[quote]Lotion Soronnor wrote...

Nope.[/QUOTE]

Yip.

So if mages can behave themselves in the heat of battle, when they are grouped together, why is it assumed that they'll turn rabid and foam at the mouth at other times? Normal life is not nearly as stressful as war. Unless your life sucks but anywhoozle.

[quote]Lotion Soronnor wrote...

People are resillient and they survive even in the harshest of
enviroments (if in no other way then by breeding like rabbits). And
magisters are pretty powerfull.
So Tevinter still standing proves nothing really.

Also, the qunari attack in Kirkwall was a suicidal one. They never had a chance of victory.[/QUOTE]

You totally missed my point. Yes the Magisters are very powerful, they are also rational, thinking beings that despite their power and freedom, and penchant for blood magic, have remained unpossessed to such a degree that they have kept their nation together (or at least existing) despite rampant adversity. The magisters are proof of the fact that mages are completely in charge of their faculties.

[quote]Lotion Soronnor wrote...

So Tevinter would be seeing a massive influx of capable mages? Yeah, that will bode well for TheDas.[/QUOTE]

Sure it will! Cuz it'll probably mean the Qunari will go bye-bye soon after. Heck whatever is left of the Chantry by then might even thank them! And it'll bode blow all for the rest of Thedas seeing as how the rest of the countries will now be filled with freedom lovin mages who would probably object to a invasion by the Imperium.

On a unrelated note this forum really, really, REALLY needs an upgrade. Multiquoting would be really spiffy. And an undo button. And quote tags.

Also if multiplayer is going to be a Templar vs Mage thing I am soooooo going to enjoy melting me some templar eyes with my witchfire. XD

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 23 novembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

Reidbynature wrote...

I think with all the assurances about 'player agency' and such from Bioware that we should expect a story that doesn't simply trample all over our player character on its way to its singular goal.

Mass Effect 3 assured the same.
It did not deliver.

[Reidbynature]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

I think with all the assurances about 'player agency' and such from Bioware that we should expect a story that doesn't simply trample all over our player character on its way to its singular goal.

Mass Effect 3 assured the same.
It did not deliver.

Then if that isn't a good enough lesson then I don't know what is.

[thats1evildude]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The thinning of the Veil is done by a lot of people dying. No magic required. As someone else pointed out since it is so very obvious that the Veil is so thin in Kirkwall, why keep the circle there? It's a recipe for disaster and the mages ain't the cooks.

The Band of Three Codexes quite clearly specify that the magisters deliberately thinned the Veil in Kirkwall using blood magic rituals. Oh, those wacky Tevinters!

And it was all kept secret. The magisters concealed their efforts, and no one REALLY understood what was going on in Kirkwall … except the mages who turned it into a magnet for demons.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And why did Anders do it? Oh wait. Because the Chantry is responsible for the plight of mages. By you know, keeping them locked up for their entire lives and letting Templars have their way with them and such.

I'm sure that was a great comfort to the mages as they were being hacked apart by the templars for Anders' righteous cause.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

They're victims of a system that turns them into monsters through NO FAULT of their own maybe. In Tevinter there are no Templars, or they are owned by the magisters basically, and we must assume that the incidence of turning into abominations is less, or there's a better way to deal with it, seeing as how the Imperium is still standing despite all odds. The Templars are aggravators and instigators, not a counter-measure.

There are templars in Tevinter, because even they recognize there is a line that mages can cross.

But say an abomination goes crazy and goes on a killing spree in Minrathous — so what? It's got to be stopped, but it's not like the lives of Tevinter citizens aren't miserable already. What is one more horror in an entire empire of horrors?

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I don't see the logic here. More normal people being complicit makes the deed, what? Better? The only difference here is that only one mage needs to be off his rocker (which almost all the mages you mentioned were) to do something bad. Whereas many have to be complicit in the deeds I named. Which is why people should be judged individually, not as a collective.

The evil that a single crazed or ambitious mundane person can do is limited. The evil that a single ambitious or crazed mage can do is limitless.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And just fyi you only need one example to make a point. Merrill proves that blood magic DOES NOT have to be used for evil, it is just the most apparent use for it.

And by your own admission, blood magic is most readily used for evil. So if it's constantly and consistently used for evil, why would we take the risk of allowing it to be practiced? Because it might do some good? And what about all the other evil that will occur alongside that good? It just comes back to the little kid with a revolver again.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Eh. The Chantry reneged on the deal made with Shartan and ordered an Exalted March on the Dales, which was the NEW elven homeland, the Tevinters sinking Arlathan was in the past, solved as it were, and then made the elves live as segregated second hand citizens. The Chantry did that, the nobles of Thedas are just playing by the rules of the most powerful society in Thedas and their brainwashing.

The Exalted March on the Dales was only ordered as a result of elven aggression.

The Chantry does not preach elves are bad. I repeat: the Chantry does not preach elves are bad. The Chantry overlooks the contributions of elves in freeing the land from the Tevinter Imperium, but the Chantry does not say "Mistreat the elves." The humans of Thedas have decided on their own that elves should be mistreated, helped along by the fact that it is advantageous to the nobility throughout Thedas to keep the elves oppressed.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Also if multiplayer is going to be a Templar vs Mage thing I am soooooo going to enjoy melting me some templar eyes with my witchfire. XD

A pity, as the templars always stood for protecting mages as much as protecting others from mages.

Oh well. The Templar Order shall protect the land from foul magic as they always have. Let Thedas run red with the blood of apostates!

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 novembre 2012 - 12:50 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Except that these "known, proven dangers" only applies to some, a minority. The rest of the mages are awfully helpful making money for the Chantry, random Qunari invasions and Blights though.

What part of "every mage can kill you even with the ebst intentions and AGAINST HIS WILL" and "you cannot tell which one" escape you?

Useful. Yes the mages certainly are that. The Circles does not however keep the mages safe. They are in fact chucked at demons in the Fade, which seems distinctly unsafe. Not to mention the rapes and abuse. And the emotional neutering. The Circles don't even keep the mundanes safe, as many an apostate has proven. The Circle doesn't work because it keeps the safe ones IN and the badguys, the ones who really WANT to escape, tend to go free and wreak havoc anyway. Not that there ain't exceptions.

Yes they do. Mages are pretty safe in the Circles.

The Harrowing is a MAGE-CREATED practice. And mages are going to face demons one way or another.

Rape and abuse? No more and no more frequent than you average Thedas citizen faces.

Emotional Neutering? You mean tranqulity? It just happens to be the ONLY way to render a mage safe.

It keeps the mundanes safe, as it keep poeple like Uldred in. The vast majority of mages are in the Circles. Apostates are a minority.

Yip.

Nope. TheDas wasn't loosing. It was a stalemate.

Normal life is not nearly as stressful as war. Unless your life sucks but anywhoozle.

Sez who? Anywhoo, it doesn't have to be as stressfull.
There are things other than stress that influence the mind.

You totally missed my point. Yes the Magisters are very powerful, they are also rational, thinking beings that despite their power and freedom, and penchant for blood magic, have remained unpossessed to such a degree that they have kept their nation together (or at least existing) despite rampant adversity. The magisters are proof of the fact that mages are completely in charge of their faculties.

Nope.
Tevinter standing doesn't prove your point.
They kept their nation together - so what?
Where does it say magisters dont' fall to possesion?
Where does it say that Tevinter MUST fall if abominations happen?

Lotion Soronnor wrote...
So Tevinter would be seeing a massive influx of capable mages? Yeah, that will bode well for TheDas.

Sure it will! Cuz it'll probably mean the Qunari will go bye-bye soon after. Heck whatever is left of the Chantry by then might even thank them! And it'll bode blow all for the rest of Thedas seeing as how the rest of the countries will now be filled with freedom lovin mages who would probably object to a invasion by the Imperium.

Yeah..more cannonfodder and more abuse. More bloodmagic. Stronger Tevinter to opress everyone.
Good times.

[Lotion Soronarr]

. In Tevinter there are no Templars, or they are owned by the magisters basically, and we must assume that the incidence of turning into abominations is less, or there's a better way to deal with it, seeing as how the Imperium is still standing despite all odds. The Templars are aggravators and instigators, not a counter-measure.

No, we mustn't assume anythnig here.

Tevinter has templars, Tevinter does lock up mages too (most of them anyway).

Tempalrs are a counter-measure, the mages are instigators.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Yes they do. Mages are pretty safe in the Circles.

The Harrowing is a MAGE-CREATED practice. And mages are going to face demons one way or another.

Rape and abuse? No more and no more frequent than you average Thedas citizen faces.

Emotional Neutering? You mean tranqulity? It just happens to be the ONLY way to render a mage safe.

It keeps the mundanes safe, as it keep poeple like Uldred in. The vast majority of mages are in the Circles. Apostates are a minority.

This lolsy as hell. You blabber about how dangerous mages are yet you do not think its a good idea to proactivly prevent abuse and rape because these people can bite back. and once they are biting back you complain about it. Its quite clear the circles are needed. however the templar order is not . in fact all of them deserve to be executed for the traitors they are

[Rawgrim]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Yes they do. Mages are pretty safe in the Circles.

The Harrowing is a MAGE-CREATED practice. And mages are going to face demons one way or another.

Rape and abuse? No more and no more frequent than you average Thedas citizen faces.

Emotional Neutering? You mean tranqulity? It just happens to be the ONLY way to render a mage safe.

It keeps the mundanes safe, as it keep poeple like Uldred in. The vast majority of mages are in the Circles. Apostates are a minority.

This lolsy as hell. You blabber about how dangerous mages are yet you do not think its a good idea to proactivly prevent abuse and rape because these people can bite back. and once they are biting back you complain about it. Its quite clear the circles are needed. however the templar order is not . in fact all of them deserve to be executed for the traitors they are

If templars arn`t needed, how do you propose a demon possessed blood-mage can be stopped as soon as possible? You know...before hundreds of innocents gets killed. A regular soldier would be toast vs something like that.

[Warden661]

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The thinning of the Veil is done by a lot of people dying. No magic required. As someone else pointed out since it is so very obvious that the Veil is so thin in Kirkwall, why keep the circle there? It's a recipe for disaster and the mages ain't the cooks.

And why did Anders do it? Oh wait. Because the Chantry is responsible for the plight of mages. By you know, keeping them locked up for their entire lives and letting Templars have their way with them and such.[/quote]

Do people in Kirkwall even know if the veil is thin? If they do than I agree, why the hell would they keep a group of mages there.

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

They're victims of a system that turns them into monsters through NO FAULT of their own maybe. In Tevinter there are no Templars, or they are owned by the magisters basically, and we must assume that the incidence of turning into abominations is less, or there's a better way to deal with it, seeing as how the Imperium is still standing despite all odds. The Templars are aggravators and instigators, not a counter-measure.[/quote]

We don't know a whole lot about Tevinter. So saying that just because the country still exists means that those mages in power must not be possessed is only an assumption (and not one that we must assume). It could be right but we don't know and can't say for sure. For all we know demons could be running the whole show. For all we know demons could be around every street corner. That's probably not the case but again, we just don't know yet.

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I don't see the logic here. More normal people being complicit makes the deed, what? Better? The only difference here is that only one mage needs to be off his rocker (which almost all the mages you mentioned were) to do something bad. Whereas many have to be complicit in the deeds I named. Which is why people should be judged individually, not as a collective. [/quote]

You're right, it takes many non-mages to cause the amount of damange that one mage could do on his/her own. This is why the people of Thedas view all mages as dangerous. Now I agree that just because a mage can be that destructive doesn't mean that (s)he will. But there is always that possibility which is why I see why people look at them all as a group. I don't agree with it, but I see why.

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Could have being the operative phrase here. Merrill DID mention she'd taken precautions before going to Sundermount, Marethari just assumed Merrill would walk in all doey eyed and get possessed. And keep blood magic banned then, I just want the mages freed. xp

Also mages aren't small children, they're fully grown logical adults. Presumably. Unless they actually ARE kids but w/e.

And just fyi you only need one example to make a point. Merrill proves that blood magic DOES NOT have to be used for evil, it is just the most apparent use for it. [/quote]

Merrill was more responsible than some who deal with blood magic, I'll agree. But if you take her into the Fade with you during the mission where you are trying to save Feynril (sp?) than she takes the deal of the Pride demon. Every time. If it wasn't for Hawke she would have become an abomination.

That does't negate the fact that she was using blood magic for what she thought was good, I'll agree. But she is not what I would call responsible when it comes to demons which doesn't make her a prime example of how responsible mages can be.

Marethari is a whole nother story of stupid....

[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Eh. The Chantry reneged on the deal made with Shartan and ordered an Exalted March on the Dales, which was the NEW elven homeland, the Tevinters sinking Arlathan was in the past, solved as it were, and then made the elves live as segregated second hand citizens. The Chantry did that, the nobles of Thedas are just playing by the rules of the most powerful society in Thedas and their brainwashing.[/quote]
 
I don't know enough about the Exalted Marches to respond so I won't...

[quote]
Except that these "known, proven dangers" only applies to some, a minority. The rest of the mages are awfully helpful making money for the Chantry, random Qunari invasions and Blights though. [/quote]

There is one known and proven danger and that is that every mage attracts demons like a beacon. Good or bad. It's a constant threat that can't be stopped. Which is why I agree that an eye should be kept on them just in case. Should they have to be bunched together in the Circle and isolated for the outside world? Maybe not but I think that there should always be Templars. Maybe in like a town watch type role. They wouldn't take place of the city gaurd but the would be there.

[quote]
Useful. Yes the mages certainly are that. The Circles does not however keep the mages safe. They are in fact chucked at demons in the Fade, which seems distinctly unsafe. Not to mention the rapes and abuse. And the emotional neutering. The Circles don't even keep the mundanes safe, as many an apostate has proven. The Circle doesn't work because it keeps the safe ones IN and the badguys, the ones who really WANT to escape, tend to go free and wreak havoc anyway. Not that there ain't exceptions.[/quote]
 
They're not just thrown at demons, they're trained before. Furthermore they are trained by mages who have passed their harrowing, know what it intells, and I assume want every one of their mage pupil to pass as well. The Circle is most certainly not perfect, I'll agree.

[quote]

Yip.

So if mages can behave themselves in the heat of battle, when they are grouped together, why is it assumed that they'll turn rabid and foam at the mouth at other times? Normal life is not nearly as stressful as war. Unless your life sucks but anywhoozle. [/quote]

I agree. If it wasn't for mages, most of Thedas could be speaking the pile of trash that is the Qun.

[quote]
You totally missed my point. Yes the Magisters are very powerful, they are also rational, thinking beings that despite their power and freedom, and penchant for blood magic, have remained unpossessed to such a degree that they have kept their nation together (or at least existing) despite rampant adversity. The magisters are proof of the fact that mages are completely in charge of their faculties. [/quote]

I've already commented on Tevinter. I'll say one more thing though (not necessarily a response to you post). Tevinter, the ONLY representation of mages ruling, is also the only place where slavery is openly practiced. So I don't blame the people of Thedas for fearing that possibility. 

[quote]
Sure it will! Cuz it'll probably mean the Qunari will go bye-bye soon after. Heck whatever is left of the Chantry by then might even thank them! And it'll bode blow all for the rest of Thedas seeing as how the rest of the countries will now be filled with freedom lovin mages who would probably object to a invasion by the Imperium. [/quote]

That could happen. Also more instances of possession could happen. Anything could happen, good or bad.

[quote]
On a unrelated note this forum really, really, REALLY needs an upgrade. Multiquoting would be really spiffy. And an undo button. And quote tags. [/quote]

AGREE 150%

[quote]
Also if multiplayer is going to be a Templar vs Mage thing I am soooooo going to enjoy melting me some templar eyes with my witchfire. XD
[/quote]

I'll be happy to nullify your "witchfire" using my Templar abilities and then slowly stick my sword through your soft mage flesh.  But I think it's going to be more like Mass Effect's multiplayer. There will be dragons though! 

Modifié par BoBear, 23 novembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[DKJaigen]

Rawgrim wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Yes they do. Mages are pretty safe in the Circles.

The Harrowing is a MAGE-CREATED practice. And mages are going to face demons one way or another.

Rape and abuse? No more and no more frequent than you average Thedas citizen faces.

Emotional Neutering? You mean tranqulity? It just happens to be the ONLY way to render a mage safe.

It keeps the mundanes safe, as it keep poeple like Uldred in. The vast majority of mages are in the Circles. Apostates are a minority.

This lolsy as hell. You blabber about how dangerous mages are yet you do not think its a good idea to proactivly prevent abuse and rape because these people can bite back. and once they are biting back you complain about it. Its quite clear the circles are needed. however the templar order is not . in fact all of them deserve to be executed for the traitors they are

If templars arn`t needed, how do you propose a demon possessed blood-mage can be stopped as soon as possible? You know...before hundreds of innocents gets killed. A regular soldier would be toast vs something like that.

Reavers spirit warriors lyrium tatoes? their are plenty of other abilities that non mages can use. That is need for specialised group of soldiers that can combat magic is true. but drinking lyrium is a big taboo for me. I am police officer  myself. If im ever caught with a gram of illicit substances im fired. not only because it is bad for your performance but because you far easier corrupted by outside sources. In short your compromised. In DA1 we see a network of mages thriving because they can bribe templars.

. Combined this with treason to orlais by starting an illegal war on the soil of orlais the templars cannot be trusted to do their task. Lotion is wrong. The templars can keep nothing safe in such a state
But the current templar order is nothing more then scum that is not worthy of deserving  pity or mercy.