1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Adanu wrote...

Incarceration can have the implication of one day being able to leave or not.

Leave or not? So you're saying that incarceration has the implication of you being able to leave, unless it doesn't?

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
 trotting the mages out for war,

Their aid is requested in times of war, not forced. And even then, only in the time of utmost need such as the Bligths or Exalthed Marches. Most mages are eager to go since it will help improve the standing of the Circle.

Blights are necessary since Darkspawn kill everything, the Exalted Marches aren't. Like the one on Tevinter and the Dales those two weren't actively threatening wherever. The Chantry just didn't like them. And boosting the image of your prison is just common sense, most mages are probably eager to just get out of their prison for a while even though they might, yah know, die. And I srsly doubt that mages have a choice if the Chantry presses the issue. Not en masse, maybe individuals.

[MisterJB]

Adanu wrote...
I didn't ignore them. I saw them and saw what they are; attempts to twist words to make a system of slavery not be slavery. You're like a politician in that. If they don't have the mindset of a slave, they can't be slaves! If they aren't treated as slaves, they aren't slaves! They are both incarcerated and enslaved.

Your arguments are always so compelling.

You: Mages are enslaved!
Me: Mages are not enslaved because they have acess to rights and freedom which an actual slave does not. Such as this, this and this.
You: You're twisting words! And you better agree despite the fact I do not provide a single argument or justification or you must support slavery!

You're such a pleasat person to debate with.:innocent:

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:51 .

[The Hierophant]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
I do agree that the comaprison of the Circle of Magi & modern police forces is faulty as the former lacks oversight who's not related or affiliated with the Chantry, and Templars.

Because internal police is not related to the police?
They both work for the government....

The Chantry is not a government, it's a religious organization with alot of influence because of it's ally provided military wing, that no longer associates with the it  thanks to Lambert. The oversight of the Circles is lacking because the Chantry lacks the power to police  the Templars or Seekers as they were only a triumvirate. 

State Police <DA <FBI=NSA=CIA < The Three Branches of Government < UN (lulz at the UN having power)

[MisterJB]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Blights are necessary since Darkspawn kill everything, the Exalted Marches aren't. Like the one on Tevinter and the Dales those two weren't actively threatening wherever. The Chantry just didn't like them. And boosting the image of your prison is just common sense, most mages are probably eager to just get out of their prison for a while even though they might, yah know, die. And I srsly doubt that mages have a choice if the Chantry presses the issue. Not en masse, maybe individuals.

I'm certainly not going to censure the Chantry for wanting to overthrow an empire that thrives on slavery and uses Thedas as the personal playground of the Magisters. As for the Dales, an Exhalted March was only called after the elves had attacked Orlais and were on the doorstep of Val-Royeaux herself, so they were a threat.

I expect they have a choice. They can't be forced to do magic if they don't want to and if their aid is needed, the Chantry can't exactly send Templars to force the issue because they will probrably be busy fighting the war. But, ultimately, the mages have a vetted interests in aiding during times of war. It raises their social standing.

[Herr Uhl]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Like the one on Tevinter and the Dales those two weren't actively threatening wherever. The Chantry just didn't like them. 

The Dales were kind of a threat. The march wasn't called until they were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.

Edit: Not interested in debating who threw the first flaming bag of poo, but the march wasn't called without there already being a war.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 novembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Adanu]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Incarceration can have the implication of one day being able to leave or not.

Leave or not? So you're saying that incarceration has the implication of you being able to leave, unless it doesn't?

No, I'm saying that Incarceration has the implication that you might one day be able to leave. Much like current prison systems with terms. If their prison sentence says one year, they might leave in one year. Others serve for their lives.

MisterJB wrote...

Adanu wrote...
I didn't ignore
them. I saw them and saw what they are; attempts to twist words to make
a system of slavery not be slavery. You're like a politician in that.
If they don't have the mindset of a slave, they can't be slaves! If they
aren't treated as slaves, they aren't slaves! They are both incarcerated and enslaved.

Your arguments are always so compelling.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

You: Mages are enslaved!
Me:
Mages are not enslaved because they have acess to rights and freedom
which an actual slave does not. Such as this, this and this.
You:
You're twisting words! And you better agree despite the fact I do not
provide a single argument or justification or you must support slavery!

You're such a pleasat person to debate with.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

I can't see how to debate this when you have such a fundamentally different mindset... I tend to agree to disagree with your type, but I will adress one thing.

Africans also had the 'right' to eat, sleep, and possibly read if their Owners decided they wanted their slave to read.

Mages, similarly, are allowed to read, sleep, and do magical research because it suits their Templar enslavers. They are allowed to do things because the Templars allowed it. They are not allowed freedom. If they were, they could leave their tower anytime without having a Templar track them down. They don't have rights either... they have 'privileges' that can be revoked anytime. Just look at Asunder.

[Herr Uhl]

Adanu wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Incarceration can have the implication of one day being able to leave or not.

Leave or not? So you're saying that incarceration has the implication of you being able to leave, unless it doesn't?

No, I'm saying that Incarceration has the implication that you might one day be able to leave. Much like current prison systems with terms. If their prison sentence says one year, they might leave in one year. Others serve for their lives.

I think mages are allowed to leave once they die too. Or are you arguing that a life sentence is slavery?

[Dave of Canada]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Yes. All you have to do is give up your freedom. Forever.

• Not everyone has the freedom which mages desire, most elves / dwarves and commoners are treated far worse than mages by virtue of their birth.
• A mage is allowed to leave the Circle provided they follow the rules laid down by the Chantry and they can interact with the outside world, make coin and spend it.
• A mage may choose to do nothing with their latent abilities, all they require is learn enough to be considered safe and then reside in the Circle. They can sit around playing thumb war all day and the Templar won't bat an eyelash.

It gets close sometimes, the Tranquil for example

Tranquil are made to not execute the mages which are a danger to everyone around them, they sustain the Circle lifestyle and offer the mage a chance of living outside the Circles.

and trotting the mages out for war

Thankfully only against foreign invaders. Without Circles, political systems would desire to control mages because whoever has the most mages would win wars.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:06 .

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...
I'm certainly not going to censure the Chantry for wanting to overthrow an empire that thrives on slavery and uses Thedas as the personal playground of the Magisters. As for the Dales, an Exhalted March was only called after the elves had attacked Orlais and were on the doorstep of Val-Royeaux herself, so they were a threat.

I expect they have a choice. They can't be forced to do magic if they don't want to and if their aid is needed, the Chantry can't exactly send Templars to force the issue because they will probrably be busy fighting the war. But, ultimately, the mages have a vetted interests in aiding during times of war. It raises their social standing.

Except that the Chantry only called the Exalted Marches after Tevinter split with their official doctrine. Seeing as how Tevinter only submitted to the Chantry on their own terms there is no reason to think slavery was ended or blood magic except on a public level. Also the reason for the attack on the Dales is vague, the elves say they were attacked because they refused to worship the Maker, the codex entry says elves attacked a village but only AFTER the village did something bad to them.

The Circle-sent-to-war thing is iffy unless a dev would contribute. But really if the mages are needed I don't see why the Chantry wouldn't force them to participate. And raising their social standing is utterly irrelevant. The people like them more, spiffy. They're still imprisoned forever.

Though I suppose it did help when they eventually broke from the Chantry... xp

[MisterJB]

Adanu wrote...
I can't see how to debate this when you have such a fundamentally different mindset... I tend to agree to disagree with your type, but I will adress one thing.

Africans also had the 'right' to eat, sleep, and possibly read if their Owners decided they wanted their slave to read.

Mages, similarly, are allowed to read, sleep, and do magical research because it suits their Templar enslavers. They are allowed to do things because the Templars allowed it. They are not allowed freedom. If they were, they could leave their tower anytime without having a Templar track them down. They don't have rights either... they have 'privileges' that can be revoked anytime. Just look at Asunder.

Having limited freedoms does not equal slavery. I have limited freedoms as well, I can't drive my car in the opposite side of the road just because I feel like to because if I do so, I'd be a threat others.
Mages have their freedoms more restricted because their potential for destruction is much, much, much greater than mine. But I am not a slave and neither are they.

And what I saw in Asunder was an increase in security following a terrorist attack by a mage. Same thing happens in our world many times but it's still not slavery.

[MisterJB]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Except that the Chantry only called the Exalted Marches after Tevinter split with their official doctrine. Seeing as how Tevinter only submitted to the Chantry on their own terms there is no reason to think slavery was ended or blood magic except on a public level.

The Chantry, like with all things, has a certain tolerance level. Creating a new Divine and ellecting a mage, I don't see how anyone could have tolerated that.
Ultimately, I am in favor of war against Tevinter at all times and for whatever reasons. Down with the Magisters!

Also the reason for the attack on the Dales is vague, the elves say they were attacked because they refused to worship the Maker, the codex entry says elves attacked a village but only AFTER the village did something bad to them.

You're confusing things. The elves claim that they attacked Red Crossing because the Chantry sent templars to convert them. The Chantry says they did no such thing. The truth is lost in time.
There are however, certain indisputable historical facts. The elves did attack Red Crossing and then Orlais declared war and the Dales started winning. They pushed into human land at which point, the Chantry called for an Exhalted March. The elves sacked Val-Royeaux and then the other human nations arrived and they lost the war.

And raising their social standing is utterly irrelevant. The people like them more, spiffy. They're still imprisoned forever.

Not at all. You can always improve living conditions in the Circle. There is a Circle in Tevinter but you can bet it is quite different from the ones in Andrastian lands.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

To be more specific, Gaider said the atheist option wasn't going to return to Dragon Age because playing as an atheist meant you want to eventually destroy all religion. It's likely why Hawke was written to be religiously Andrastian.

I'm not surprised you see what you want to see, you're pretty good at it.

I addressed what was explicitly stated by Gaider in that atheist thread. Would you like me to provide his quote?

[Fredward]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Yes. All you have to do is give up your freedom. Forever. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

• Not
  everyone has the freedom which mages desire, most elves / dwarves and
  commoners are treated far worse than mages by virtue of their birth. A mage may choose to do nothing with
  their latent abilities, all they require is learn enough to be
  considered safe and then reside in the Circle. They can sit around
  playing thumb war all day and the Templar won't bat an eyelash.

It gets close sometimes, the Tranquil for example

Tranquil
are made to not execute the mages which are a danger to everyone around
them, they sustain the Circle lifestyle and offer the mage a chance of
living outside the Circles.

and trotting the mages out for war

Thankfully
only against foreign invaders. Without Circles, political systems would
desire to control mages because whoever has the most mages would win
wars.

Eh? I'll give you the elves, their lives suck (because of the Chantry), but dwarves? Commoners? Both can join the army, they can own land, they can have children that get to stay with them, they get to go wherever the hell they want, they don't get chukced at demons, they don't have people staring at them in their homes and they presumably have doors in their house. Also they have much less of a chance of getting raped by some dude in a bucket helmet. Not that this matters anyway because whether unfairness exists somewhere else doesn't justify it's existence in the Circles.

A mage is allowed to leave the Circle on a limited time and is then expected to return. Sure. And they can spend their gold on stuff the Chantry says is cool to plump at the cells they get to live and die in.

I don't really know what you're driving at with that last one... Sure they can just sit there and stare at the wall for 50+ years but why? Doesn't matter if they do they still can't leave.

The Tranquil also get the choice of asking to be made Tranquil. Without knowing what that entails. I'm sure if we had a Pharamond in every Circle they'd be a lot less. Besides the ones who submit willingly have the choice of (a) participating in a scary ritual with a demon and possibly get killed or ( become automatons. It's a forced choice. They should just be executed if they're considered "dangerous" since the Tranquil who've been reversed say its worse than death.

And Circles are political systems. The Chantry uses their existence to justify their super huge private army who don't have to bow to any local authority. And the private army gets to tell the mages who to make go boom. xp

[The Hierophant]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

They're still imprisoned forever.

Though I suppose it did help when they eventually broke from the Chantry... xp

What about Shale's master who lived outside the tower, had a family and was considered a circle mage?

[Fuggyt]

I guess the mages can't actually be called slaves since they are not chattels. But it's hard to see the Circles as anything other than a modified form of forced labor. Although mages are not necessarily coerced to work, the only work they are allowed to do is controlled by the institution they are in. So you can do what you're told when you're told it or you can go sit in a cell with your cat like Anders did for years at a time. The Circles also trade in enchantments made by the Tranquil, too, and once you start profiting from the employment of others the gray area gets a little darker. So if it doesn't technically qualify as slavery, especially chattel slavery as practiced in Tevinter, it sure feels like it to me when I play as a mage. My mage Warden can't wait to become a kind of licensed apostate and blow the Tower, and judging by events got out just in time. My mage Hawke has spent a lifetime dodging the attention of state-sanctioned kidnappers until attaining the semi-official title of Champion of Kirkwall, another kind of licensed apostate.

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Except that the Chantry only called the Exalted Marches after Tevinter split with their official doctrine. Seeing as how Tevinter only submitted to the Chantry on their own terms there is no reason to think slavery was ended or blood magic except on a public level.

The Chantry, like with all things, has a certain tolerance level. Creating a new Divine and ellecting a mage, I don't see how anyone could have tolerated that.
Ultimately, I am in favor of war against Tevinter at all times and for whatever reasons. Down with the Magisters!

Also the reason for the attack on the Dales is vague, the elves say they were attacked because they refused to worship the Maker, the codex entry says elves attacked a village but only AFTER the village did something bad to them.

You're confusing things. The elves claim that they attacked Red Crossing because the Chantry sent templars to convert them. The Chantry says they did no such thing. The truth is lost in time.
There are however, certain indisputable historical facts. The elves did attack Red Crossing and then Orlais declared war and the Dales started winning. They pushed into human land at which point, the Chantry called for an Exhalted March. The elves sacked Val-Royeaux and then the other human nations arrived and they lost the war.

And raising their social standing is utterly irrelevant. The people like them more, spiffy. They're still imprisoned forever.

Not at all. You can always improve living conditions in the Circle. There is a Circle in Tevinter but you can bet it is quite different from the ones in Andrastian lands.

Too bad the Chantry's exceptance level accepted slavery but balked at religious reinterpretation. Who says the Tevinters don't have it right? Also, off topic, but I don't get why people think the Chantry is a nice thing. It has control over all the mages in Thedas ('cept Tevinter ofc) and uses this ownership to justify a private army. Their religion justifies expansionism and they have a bad habbit of calling crusades down on everyone who doesn't wanna believe what they tell them to. They destroyed the elves a second time and allowed them to live in human cities as secondhand citizens. And don't try and tell me the Chantry doesn't endorse that, how many elven priestesses have we seen? Or templars even. The Chantry is not a nice institution. It's filled with meanies. Mean old ladies. XD

Aaaaand a gilded cage is still a cage. No matter how plushy the cusions.

[Herr Uhl]

Fuggyt wrote...

So you can do what you're told when you're told it or you can go sit in a cell with your cat like Anders did for years at a time.

Anders escaped a few times. It wasn't that he was unwilling to do labour.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 novembre 2012 - 05:42 .

[Fredward]

The Hierophant wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

They're still imprisoned forever.

Though I suppose it did help when they eventually broke from the Chantry... xp

What about Shale's master who lived outside the tower, had a family and was considered a circle mage?

This is a good question. I think he was allowed to go free because of some contribution to a war? Which begs the question as to why the mages who helped with the Blight weren't allowed the same privelige. Or why an exception can be made for one mage whose proven to cope well under stress and not others.

[Reznore57]

Wynne was able to leave the circle , and after the Blight well she was kind of "free".
She did work for the divine , but if I remember she went to Cumberland for a mage meeting , she went to see her son in Orlais etc...

Some freedom can be earned back , that's not impossible.But I'm pretty sure it's rare , because It requires stuff like defeating an archdemon.

[Herr Uhl]

Reznore57 wrote...

Some freedom can be earned back , that's not impossible.But I'm pretty sure it's rare , because It requires stuff like defeating an archdemon.

What about the Ines the Botanist?

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
I do agree that the comaprison of the Circle of Magi & modern police forces is faulty as the former lacks oversight who's not related or affiliated with the Chantry, and Templars.

Because internal police is not related to the police?
They both work for the government....

The Chantry is not a government, it's a religious organization with alot of influence because of it's ally provided military wing, that no longer associates with the it  thanks to Lambert. The oversight of the Circles is lacking because the Chantry lacks the power to police  the Templars or Seekers as they were only a triumvirate.

There is no difference really.
Templars and Seekers and the Reverend Mothers all work for the Chantry.
Police and Internal Police all work for the government.

No difference...excpet that in ye olde days the ruling class had less to fear. The government wasn't a decomocracy and people were less informed - mostly due to lack of communications.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Some freedom can be earned back , that's not impossible.But I'm pretty sure it's rare , because It requires stuff like defeating an archdemon.

What about the Ines the Botanist?

Wynne was a Senior Enchanter who was given permission to aid against the Blight. Ines was researching a plant that was rumored to be able to grow in Blighted soil. I don't think their examples are typical.

[The Hierophant]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...


This is a good question. I think he was allowed to go free because of some contribution to a war? Which begs the question as to why the mages who helped with the Blight weren't allowed the same privelige. Or why an exception can be made for one mage whose proven to cope well under stress and not others.

This is another issue with this debate because we don't know anything in regards to the privileges Circles can provide to mages, and their reasons for doing so. 

I hope the conflict is resolved in a way that both sides are placated, and not return the situation to exactly the way the Circles or Templars were managed like before.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Some freedom can be earned back , that's not impossible.But I'm pretty sure it's rare , because It requires stuff like defeating an archdemon.

What about the Ines the Botanist?

Wynne was a Senior Enchanter who was given permission to aid against the Blight. Ines was researching a plant that was rumored to be able to grow in Blighted soil. I don't think their examples are typical.

They're not the typical mage, no. But Ines was allowed to travel without any oversight. "Defeating an Archdemon" probably isn't a typical requirement either. She needed to get out for her studies, and was allowed to do so.