1297 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

They're still imprisoned forever.

Though I suppose it did help when they eventually broke from the Chantry... xp

What about Shale's master who lived outside the tower, had a family and was considered a circle mage?

Wilhelm was a war hero who was able to raise a family, despite such a thing being illegal. He likely had a royal boon because of his service to Moira and Maric.

[MisterJB]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Too bad the Chantry's exceptance level accepted slavery but balked at religious reinterpretation. Who says the Tevinters don't have it right? Also, off topic, but I don't get why people think the Chantry is a nice thing. It has control over all the mages in Thedas ('cept Tevinter ofc) and uses this ownership to justify a private army. Their religion justifies expansionism and they have a bad habbit of calling crusades down on everyone who doesn't wanna believe what they tell them to. They destroyed the elves a second time and allowed them to live in human cities as secondhand citizens. And don't try and tell me the Chantry doesn't endorse that, how many elven priestesses have we seen? Or templars even. The Chantry is not a nice institution. It's filled with meanies. Mean old ladies. XD

Aaaaand a gilded cage is still a cage. No matter how plushy the cusions.

The results speak for themselves. Tevinter is a crumbling empire resting on the backs of slaves and where the leadership is too busy competing for power to care for the citizens. Fenris, an escaped slave, much prefers life under Andrastian rule.
And he is right. There are social inequalities in nations under the Divine but everyone; and yes, that includes elves and mages who don't become Magisters; live much better than in Tevinter.
You say that the Chantry has a private army and you're right. But what has it done with this army? Fought Tevinter and the Qunari, opressive and expansionist regimes. The Dales who almost destroyed an entire human nation. No templars or mages ever helped Orlais in its expansionist wars, there are no secret squads of blood mages fueled by peasants serving the Divine. Despitre all its power, the Chantry has not abused it.

The Chantry forced human nations to accept elven refugees. It is the actions of both elves and humans who have forced the previous to live in poorer conditions.
There are many racial tensions between both sides and elven isolationism does not help matter. Whenever a city elf earns money and buys an house outside the alienage, the other elves look with pity and disgust. Rather, they should help protect their house from more racist humans, they should try to join the guard as one does in Kirkwall.
The Chantry treats humans and converted elves equally and, altough you could claim it does not help as much as it could, it certainly does not endorse descrimination.

It has made mistakes and perhaps you could claim it does not do enough
as it could but, ultimately, the Chantry is a force of good on Thedas.
It has created more safe and moral societies where slavery is viewed as
something repugnant, it funds many projects to help the needy, it protects mundanes from mages and mages from mundanes, etc.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wilhelm was a war hero who was able to raise a family, despite such a thing being illegal. He likely had a royal boon because of his service to Moira and Maric.

And his granddaughter is potentially possessed by a demon he released. I think there is a lesson here.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I addressed what was explicitly stated by Gaider in that atheist thread. Would you like me to provide his quote?

Except, you know, you're seeing what you want to see in that quote to justify your position. You did the same with every post of his in the DA2 forums, it's hardly any surprise you're still doing it.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne was a Senior Enchanter who was given permission to aid against the Blight. Ines was researching a plant that was rumored to be able to grow in Blighted soil. I don't think their examples are typical.

They're not the typical mage, no. But Ines was allowed to travel without any oversight. "Defeating an Archdemon" probably isn't a typical requirement either. She needed to get out for her studies, and was allowed to do so.

Ines was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil after the Fifth Blight devastated Ferelden and made significant parts of it barren. We know the templars only permitted seven mages to fight the Blight at Ostagar; freedom can't be earned by Circle mages, unless they get a royal boon or become a Grey Warden.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:11 .

[Adanu]

MisterJB wrote...

Adanu wrote...
I can't see how to debate this when you have such a fundamentally different mindset... I tend to agree to disagree with your type, but I will adress one thing.

Africans also had the 'right' to eat, sleep, and possibly read if their Owners decided they wanted their slave to read.

Mages, similarly, are allowed to read, sleep, and do magical research because it suits their Templar enslavers. They are allowed to do things because the Templars allowed it. They are not allowed freedom. If they were, they could leave their tower anytime without having a Templar track them down. They don't have rights either... they have 'privileges' that can be revoked anytime. Just look at Asunder.

Having limited freedoms does not equal slavery. I have limited freedoms as well, I can't drive my car in the opposite side of the road just because I feel like to because if I do so, I'd be a threat others.
Mages have their freedoms more restricted because their potential for destruction is much, much, much greater than mine. But I am not a slave and neither are they.

And what I saw in Asunder was an increase in security following a terrorist attack by a mage. Same thing happens in our world many times but it's still not slavery.

What we saw was a crackdown that lasted a year based on the actions of one rebel mage. Repeat that, every single circle became even more of a prison based on insanity from a Templar Commander and one rebel mage. This lasted a full year and never let up. If you cannot figure out how people could have an issue with that, you don't know people that well.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wilhelm was a war hero who was able to raise a family, despite such a thing being illegal. He likely had a royal boon because of his service to Moira and Maric.

And his granddaughter is potentially possessed by a demon he released. I think there is a lesson here.

Wilhelm didn't release a demon; he was studying a demon to find ways to better understand and deal with denizens of the Fade.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ines was researching a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil after the Fifth Blight devastated Ferelden and made significant parts of it barren. We know the templars only permitted seven mages to fight the Blight at Ostagar; freedom can't be earned by Circle mages, unless they get a royal boon or become a Grey Warden.

They were uncertain if it was a blight at that point. They only admitted seven mages to the command of the local monarch.

I also doubt that it was her first time out considering she has written books about botany, and that is hard to do from inside.

Edit: And if they're so draconian that she is only allowed to leave this one time, why not give her an escort?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I addressed what was explicitly stated by Gaider in that atheist thread. Would you like me to provide his quote?

Except, you know, you're seeing what you want to see in that quote to justify your position. You did the same with every post of his in the DA2 forums, it's hardly any surprise you're still doing it.

I'm addressing Gaider's own explanation for why he didn't want the atheist option available for future Dragon Age games, which had to do with him claiming that the atheist option would lead to people wanting the option to destroy all religion.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 novembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wilhelm didn't release a demon; he was studying a demon to find ways to better understand and deal with denizens of the Fade.

A worthy goal but the result was the same. An innocent little girl possessed by a Desire Demon.
The lesson should still be learned.

[Reznore57]

Again from what I understand after the Blight , Wynne is mostly "free".
She had no royal boon that i know of , or anything.
She still had to respond to the chantry ,of course .
But it seems in the 10 years between the end of DA and Asunder , she did what she wanted to.
She found her son , was able to go to Orlais and met him .
She went to Cumberland , she helped Shale etc...
In Asunder she's under the divine 's order and she doesn't have to follow any templars orders.


Now she had an opportunity that most mages won't have in a lifetime ,

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, it's no slavery. We had several devs come and say it.

We had one single developer say that; the same one who said atheism was the desire to destroy all religion.

Two developers actually..
Or was it three? 

Only one developer commented about the slavery remarks made by Anders and pro-mage Hawke in that respective thread.

That said, we're all going around in circles. There is no consensus to be reached between pro-mage and pro-templar players when it comes to the issue of mages.

[The Hierophant]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no difference really.
Templars and Seekers and the Reverend Mothers all work for the Chantry.
Police and Internal Police all work for the government.

No difference...except that in ye olde days the ruling class had less to fear. The government wasn't a decomocracy and people were less informed - mostly due to lack of communications.

A major issue is that the Templars, Seekers(Inquisitors) and Chantry only allied with each other thanks to the Nevarran Accord. It's like a written on paper alliance between a mercenary force, and contractor who have like minded goals.

imo it's stupid that the Chantry didn't build it's own military force since the conception of the Circle of Magi.

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...
The results speak for themselves. Tevinter is a crumbling empire resting on the backs of slaves and where the leadership is too busy competing for power to care for the citizens. Fenris, an escaped slave, much prefers life under Andrastian rule.
And he is right. There are social inequalities in nations under the Divine but everyone; and yes, that includes elves and mages who don't become Magisters; live much better than in Tevinter.
You say that the Chantry has a private army and you're right. But what has it done with this army? Fought Tevinter and the Qunari, opressive and expansionist regimes. The Dales who almost destroyed an entire human nation. No templars or mages ever helped Orlais in its expansionist wars, there are no secret squads of blood mages fueled by peasants serving the Divine. Despitre all its power, the Chantry has not abused it.

The Chantry forced human nations to accept elven refugees. It is the actions of both elves and humans who have forced the previous to live in poorer conditions.
There are many racial tensions between both sides and elven isolationism does not help matter. Whenever a city elf earns money and buys an house outside the alienage, the other elves look with pity and disgust. Rather, they should help protect their house from more racist humans, they should try to join the guard as one does in Kirkwall.
The Chantry treats humans and converted elves equally and, altough you could claim it does not help as much as it could, it certainly does not endorse descrimination.

It has made mistakes and perhaps you could claim it does not do enough
as it could but, ultimately, the Chantry is a force of good on Thedas.
It has created more safe and moral societies where slavery is viewed as
something repugnant, it funds many projects to help the needy, it protects mundanes from mages and mages from mundanes, etc.

Holding up Tevinter as an example of what will happen if mages are free is false equivalency. The Tevinter Imperium's history, culture and religion are all inexorably tied with magic. The nation, as a whole, has been indoctrined to believe that having magic, and better yet being a magister, makes you better. This is NOT the case in the rest of Thedas.

The Chantry doesn't help Orlais in its wars (that we know of) but Orlais helps the Chantry in its, every nation in Thedas does in fact ('cept Tevinter). The Chantry just has to point its finger at someone and the nations clamber all over themselves to do its bidding.  Know what the Dales, Tevinter and the Qunari all have in common? Different religious views. The only difference there is between the Chantry and all the other players is that so far we have only seen both sides of the coin in places where the Chantry is dominant. Which I think skiews the view by a fair margin. If the first two DA games had taken place in say, Seheron, we'd probably believe that the Qun had it right and everyone else was evil and expansionist and hatin' on the underdog. So far Chantry beliefs have dictated our view on the rest, we never really hear and experience their side of the story. Which should be rectified really.

As for the elves it is true that they play a role in where they are now. But they wouldn't be in that position if (a) the Chantry hadn't handed the Dales over to Orlais and thereby deprived them of their homes, I mean why do that? Why not just force them to renounce their gods? Which they did anyway which just seems excessive at that point but w/e. Chantry is evil and whatnot. Where was I? Oh and ( the Chantry doesn't actively put the elves down (anymore) but they don't do anything to reverse the situation either. Which they could if they wanted to.

All this being said...

LobselVith8 wrote...
That said, we're all going around in
circles. There is no consensus to be reached between pro-mage and
pro-templar players when it comes to the issue of mages.

Preach brother, preach. We must remove the chance of compromise because there is no compromise. There can be no peace. Yes I just quoted Anders STFU. xp

It seems this will only be settled in multiplayer where thousands upon thousands of Templars will die in evil witchfire. XD

Also why is there not a mage extremist support group thread yet?!

[silentassassin264]

Just to correct some erroneous info. Wilhelm's granddaughter does not get possessed by the desire demon unless a douche warden sacrifices her. The girl was just really interested in a talking cat otherwise.

[Shadow Fox]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Just to correct some erroneous info. Wilhelm's granddaughter does not get possessed by the desire demon unless a douche warden sacrifices her. The girl was just really interested in a talking cat otherwise.

The demon had her enthralled you had to kill the demon to save her.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
Africans also had the 'right' to eat, sleep, and possibly read if their Owners decided they wanted their slave to read.

Mages, similarly, are allowed to read, sleep, and do magical research because it suits their Templar enslavers. They are allowed to do things because the Templars allowed it. They are not allowed freedom. If they were, they could leave their tower anytime without having a Templar track them down. They don't have rights either... they have 'privileges' that can be revoked anytime. Just look at Asunder.

1. Comparing mages to africans is a fallacy, because mages are nothing like them. In our world, prejudice/profiling based on skin color is silly, because we are functionally the same.
In the word of TheDas, mages and mundanes are NOT functioanlly the same, so profilingand different rules make sense.

2. Being able to go where one wants is NOT the definition of non-slavery. Mages aren't slaves. Period.
It doesn't fit the definition, ti doesn't fit the intent, it doesn't fit the background and the devs themselves denied it.

My words will however fall on deaf ears, since you cannot accept anything that goes agaisnt your little fantasy.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
1. Comparing mages to africans is a fallacy, because mages are nothing like them. In our world, prejudice/profiling based on skin color is silly, because we are functionally the same.
In the word of TheDas, mages and mundanes are NOT functioanlly the same, so profilingand different rules make sense.

2. Being able to go where one wants is NOT the definition of non-slavery. Mages aren't slaves. Period.
It doesn't fit the definition, ti doesn't fit the intent, it doesn't fit the background and the devs themselves denied it.

My words will however fall on deaf ears, since you cannot accept anything that goes agaisnt your little fantasy.

Yah know Lotion dude/dudet you are incredibly belligerent. Everybody else in this thread can seemingly debate without being utterly hostile but you seem to get off on it.

[silentassassin264]

The demon did not have her enthralled. Kitty had no magic under the seal. In fact when you make it obvious it is a demon she runs like heck. She just thought it was cool because she was stupid.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I addressed what was explicitly stated by Gaider in that atheist thread. Would you like me to provide his quote?

You are just boring as well as those requesitng an atheistic playstyle.

Hell, I played games with pantheons of multiple goids, one god, no gods, etc.. - I never complained, I never demanded to "have only one God" or crap like that. Go figure.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Commoners? Both can join the army, they can own land, they can have children that get to stay with them, they get to go wherever the hell they want, they don't get chukced at demons, they don't have people staring at them in their homes and they presumably have doors in their house. Also they have much less of a chance of getting raped by some dude in a bucket helmet. Not that this matters anyway because whether unfairness exists somewhere else doesn't justify it's existence in the Circles.

A mage is allowed to leave the Circle on a limited time and is then
expected to return. Sure. And they can spend their gold on stuff the
Chantry says is cool to plump at the cells they get to live and die in.

I like it how you like to invent things.

1. Commoners are technicly free to go wherever they want. Except they can't.

2. "Chucking mages at demons" is a practice established BY MAGES. Quit blaming the Chantry for it.

3. No, mages do have their privacy. Tehy dont' haev "templars staring at them all day" and they have doors. Even in Kirkwall, templars don't jsut do whatever they want in the temple. Remember, Meredith conduscting a search of the tower was considered a big deal.
Deos that sound like slavery?

4. Outside you have the exact same chance of getting raped. Except it will probably be a noble, a guard or someone in position of power over you.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I addressed what was explicitly stated by Gaider in that atheist thread. Would you like me to provide his quote?

You are just boring as well as those requesitng an atheistic playstyle.

Hell, I played games with pantheons of multiple goids, one god, no gods, etc.. - I never complained, I never demanded to "have only one God" or crap like that. Go figure.

You seem to miss the point - some people don't want their protagonist to be forced to be religiously Andrastian. It has to do with this specific fictional religion. Why should my mage be written to follow an anti-mage religion? Why can't the player have a choice in the matter?

Atheist options were available before. My Surana Warden could advocate the Libertarian position, condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales for religious reasons, disagree with Leliana about Andraste bring divine, and tell Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. Options are good; excessive railroading isn't.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 novembre 2012 - 07:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Too bad the Chantry's exceptance level accepted slavery but balked at religious reinterpretation. Who says the Tevinters don't have it right? Also, off topic, but I don't get why people think the Chantry is a nice thing. It has control over all the mages in Thedas ('cept Tevinter ofc) and uses this ownership to justify a private army.

No you silly little goose.

Templars exist because only tempalrs can deal with mages efficently. So it's the other way around.
Templars were created because of mages.

Their religion justifies expansionism and they have a bad habbit of calling crusades down on everyone who doesn't wanna believe what they tell them to. They destroyed the elves a second time and allowed them to live in human cities as secondhand citizens. And don't try and tell me the Chantry doesn't endorse that, how many elven priestesses have we seen? Or templars even. The Chantry is not a nice institution. It's filled with meanies. Mean old ladies. XD

1. Not really.
2. The elves had it coming.
3. How and where elves live is not Chantry matter.
4. The world isn't nice. And it's not filled with meanies.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
1. Comparing mages to africans is a fallacy, because mages are nothing like them. In our world, prejudice/profiling based on skin color is silly, because we are functionally the same.
In the word of TheDas, mages and mundanes are NOT functioanlly the same, so profilingand different rules make sense.

2. Being able to go where one wants is NOT the definition of non-slavery. Mages aren't slaves. Period.
It doesn't fit the definition, ti doesn't fit the intent, it doesn't fit the background and the devs themselves denied it.

My words will however fall on deaf ears, since you cannot accept anything that goes agaisnt your little fantasy.

Yah know Lotion dude/dudet you are incredibly belligerent. Everybody else in this thread can seemingly debate without being utterly hostile but you seem to get off on it.

Because when your arguments get utterly demolished, your only recourse it so complain how mean I am?
Oh, how horribly hostile I am, I called you out on a fallcy!
How can I live with such shame?
....
....
Very easily as it turns out.
Too bad - you get no sympathy points for me.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I like it how you like to invent things.

1. Commoners are technicly free to go wherever they want. Except they can't.

2. "Chucking mages at demons" is a practice established BY MAGES. Quit blaming the Chantry for it.

3. No, mages do have their privacy. Tehy dont' haev "templars staring at them all day" and they have doors. Even in Kirkwall, templars don't jsut do whatever they want in the temple. Remember, Meredith conduscting a search of the tower was considered a big deal.
Deos that sound like slavery?

4. Outside you have the exact same chance of getting raped. Except it will probably be a noble, a guard or someone in position of power over you.

1. Being unable to do something ≠ to actively stopped from doing something. You're reasoning like Sebastian when he goes "we're all victims of circumstance and we should just accept that!"

2. Proof?

3. Did you play the magi origin? They put bookcases in front of their "rooms" to get some privacy. And if you talk to the apprentices they even comment on how the templars keep staring at them. And I never called the Circle system slavery. Get your facts straight.

4. You do not have the same chance of getting raped outside, its heavily implied that rapes happen quite often in the Circles. We have Anders mention it in DAA and in DAO out of hand, like it happens often. And then we have ser Alrik as well who seems to be have been doing his thing for a while. Outside Circle? We have Vaughn.