1297 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem Iakus is that the Inquisition was still founded to be anti magical and anti heretics before it joined the Chantry as the Seekers and Templars. That is still like protestants or Jews leading the Spanish inquisition part 2. By associating the Pc with the inquisition you are associating them with the anti mage anti heretic protons templars.

Some say the Inquisition protected Thedas from Abomination and evil blood mages before the rise of the Chantry; which is something I doubt even the promages would disagree of; others that theirs was a reign on terror. This is completely in line with morally ambiguous/extremists with good intentions groups Bioware likes the protagonist to be a part of.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...
I have no words for just how completely condesending and how much you just twisted everything I said to fit your vision.

That's what you keep telling to everyone who disagrees with you.
"You are twisting everything".
Even when they supply you with plenty of proof.

Whatever. I doubt anyone takes you seriously anymore.

The only 'proof' I've seen is a bunch of so called 'realists' spouting philosophy that doesn't hold up to the human condition.

At this point, I can only assume you are trolling just as bad as Sylvius tends to.

You wouldnt know what real is if it drove over you in an aricraft carrier.
And you know even less of the human condition if you really think your silly plan can work.

[Iakus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem Iakus is that the Inquisition was still founded to be anti magical and anti heretics before it joined the Chantry as the Seekers and Templars. That is still like protestants or Jews leading the Spanish inquisition part 2. By associating the Pc with the inquisition you are associating them with the anti mage anti heretic protons templars.

And that's likely because it was probably founded upon anti-magic principles.  But it's goal was to protect people from blood mages, abominations, and other not-so-nice aspects of magic.  Between the First Blight and Andraste's Exalted March, there was a power vacuum where there was no one to watch out for these things, neither Tevinter nor the Chantry was in any position to help.

Now in Thedas we have a similar situation:  Orlais is in civil war, the Circles have revolted, and the Templars have declared the Nevarran Accord null and void.  Qunari spies have been infiltrating the lands for who knows how long (though this is not widely known yet) and something has disappeared both the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall. 

Something has to be done to protect Thedas, to restore balance with magic, both to protect Thedas from the abuses of magic and to protect mages from the abuses of Thedas

I suspect what form this Inquisition takes will be shaped by your player, whether it will be an organization that favors protecting mages or controlling them.  Action, diplomacy, or reign of terror.  History often repeats itself, but it doesn't have to.

[Herr Uhl]

Auintus wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem Iakus is that the Inquisition was still founded to be anti magical and anti heretics before it joined the Chantry as the Seekers and Templars. That is still like protestants or Jews leading the Spanish inquisition part 2. By associating the Pc with the inquisition you are associating them with the anti mage anti heretic protons templars.

Not quite. The Inquisition was founded to return order. The sources of chaos at the time were maleficar, cultists, and abominations. This time it'll be a bit different.

Well, if the templars split off from the chantry, they'd technically become a cult, so it is still cultists.

The main difference is the Qunari.

[silentassassin264]

Except order had never been that way in Thedas. Old God Cults Avvar cults etc were the normal order. What the Inquisition did would be like militant atheists killing off all religious folk to make atheism normal. The codex even describes the inquisition as a reign of terror.

[Auintus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Not quite. The Inquisition was founded to return order. The sources of chaos at the time were maleficar, cultists, and abominations. This time it'll be a bit different.

Well, if the templars split off from the chantry, they'd technically become a cult, so it is still cultists.

The main difference is the Qunari.

Cult? No. They were dragon cults and Old God worshippers. The Templar defectors are just zealots, extremists. Not a cult, but still a threat to order.
When did I miss the Qunari factoring in?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Herr Uhl wrote...
It is a term that elders use with children who do silly things. Using it in an argument is most definetly condescending.

And it's also used for someone you hold dear b.t.w.
And you were saying some silly things.
but point taken.. I won't try to be so light-hearted next time.

Oh, pot, kettle, black and all that jazz.

False eqvivalence.

There's nothing false about it.
If there is any fabricati n of evidence, it falls heavily on the pro-mage side of the debate.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:36 .

[LobselVith8]

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem Iakus is that the Inquisition was still founded to be anti magical and anti heretics before it joined the Chantry as the Seekers and Templars. That is still like protestants or Jews leading the Spanish inquisition part 2. By associating the Pc with the inquisition you are associating them with the anti mage anti heretic protons templars.

The original Inquisition hunted mages and heretics. The prospect of a mage leading a new Inquisition seems odd, in my opinion.

[Iakus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Except order had never been that way in Thedas. Old God Cults Avvar cults etc were the normal order. What the Inquisition did would be like militant atheists killing off all religious folk to make atheism normal. The codex even describes the inquisition as a reign of terror.

The group combed the land in search of these threats and some say theirs was a reign of terror

If there's one ting about the Dragon Age universe, it's that things are rarely cut-and-dried

And again, this organization was independent.  What its founders' ideals were do not have to be the same as those of the current inquisition's (even assuming that's what the strory line will be about, of course)

[Iakus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem Iakus is that the Inquisition was still founded to be anti magical and anti heretics before it joined the Chantry as the Seekers and Templars. That is still like protestants or Jews leading the Spanish inquisition part 2. By associating the Pc with the inquisition you are associating them with the anti mage anti heretic protons templars.

The original Inquisition hunted mages and heretics. The prospect of a mage leading a new Inquisition seems odd, in my opinion.

The old Inquisition hunted blood mages, abominations, dragon cultists, etc.  I can totally see mages leading a new Inquisition, independent of the Chantry,  in order for mages to "police their own"

edit:  Many an X-Men storyline has had that as a driving force anyway

Modifié par iakus, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[Auintus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Except order had never been that way in Thedas. Old God Cults Avvar cults etc were the normal order. What the Inquisition did would be like militant atheists killing off all religious folk to make atheism normal. The codex even describes the inquisition as a reign of terror.

Just remember, you started this. To get our parallels straight, we must assume that Christians demand blood sacrifices, occasionally destroy a town or slaughter a population, and exploit others for their own gain. The atheists, in turn, must be a group of individuals fed up with those empowered by magic or dragon blood abusing the mundane population. Do you see the problem with your analogy?
If Christians ran around demanding blood sacrifices to their god, they should be put down. But they don't. They do not disrupt order. There is a reason why the original Inquisition sided with the Chantry. The old way did not provide any stability or safety for the common man. The Inquisition decided to drag the world into a sense of balance, kicking and screaming if necessary.
The codex says it was seen as some as a reign of terror. Imagine those who were saved from cults by the Inquisition. Would they call it a reign of terror?

[LinksOcarina]

Can someone explain to me why an inquisition from a historical context is the basis for the fantastical one?

I mean I posted in a thread an hour ago that talked about the Protheans being Ancient Roman in a allegorical sense, but do we have a guarantee that the same is said for the inquisition in Dragon Age III to say the Spanish Inquisition?

[silentassassin264]

Yes it is independent but naming it the Inquisition is like Germany collapsing and some party started claiming they would create a fourth Reich. Even if their policy was not the same they would be identifying with the party that shall not be named just by terminology.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Logicly speaking, there is no reason why the frequency should be higher in the Circles as opposed to anywhere else. A person outside the Circle can be just as easily abused.

The main difference is the stricter delegation of power. Where power gaps exist there tends to be more abuse. A templar could possibly "see" a mage doing blood magic, and the mage would most likely be put under stricter watch at least. I'm not sure what happens to a mage that attacks a templar, but I imagine that it isn't pleasant. This mirrors society, with nobles being able to do this to the poor, for example. But that is a more open system, and more importantly, has less authority figures per person.

Another problem seems to be the tendency for templars (it is understandable if they've had a friend or two being killed by abominations) to hold mages in contempt.

I'd expect cases of rape to be higher inside a circle than outside.

[silentassassin264]

And I would respond to defend more positions but I cant quote on this kindle or respond very quickly. If this isn't locked by Sunday I will endeavour to adequately respond.

[Auintus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Can someone explain to me why an inquisition from a historical context is the basis for the fantastical one?

I mean I posted in a thread an hour ago that talked about the Protheans being Ancient Roman in a allegorical sense, but do we have a guarantee that the same is said for the inquisition in Dragon Age III to say the Spanish Inquisition?

There is one similarity. As I recall, the SI was intended to smooth or force conversion from one faith to another. The DAI is meant to settle and bring into the fold, the rebelled mages, the fanatical templars, and the more neutral parties.
...I think...maybe.

[LobselVith8]

iakus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The original Inquisition hunted mages and heretics. The prospect of a mage leading a new Inquisition seems odd, in my opinion.

The old Inquisition hunted blood mages, abominations, dragon cultists, etc.  I can totally see mages leading a new Inquisition, independent of the Chantry,  in order for mages to "police their own"

edit:  Many an X-Men storyline has had that as a driving force anyway

The old Inquisition were also a religious group of Andrastians who were said to have lead a reign of terror. If I was a mage, I wouldn't be comfortable recreating a religious order who historically hunted down mages. I'm sure there are people who feel differently, of course.

[Adanu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...
I have no words for just how completely condesending and how much you just twisted everything I said to fit your vision.

That's what you keep telling to everyone who disagrees with you.
"You are twisting everything".
Even when they supply you with plenty of proof.

Whatever. I doubt anyone takes you seriously anymore.

The only 'proof' I've seen is a bunch of so called 'realists' spouting philosophy that doesn't hold up to the human condition.

At this point, I can only assume you are trolling just as bad as Sylvius tends to.

You wouldnt know what real is if it drove over you in an aricraft carrier.
And you know even less of the human condition if you really think your silly plan can work.

And so the Ad Hominem attack starts. Nothing about the mage situation is easy, but denying mages freedom and pressing them into a circle system of slavery yet again is not going to work without major reforms and new checks. People like you aren't willing to acknowldge that, therefore the war continues.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The old Inquisition were also a religious group of Andrastians who were said to have lead a reign of terror. If I was a mage, I wouldn't be comfortable recreating a religious order who historically hunted down mages. I'm sure there are people who feel differently, of course.

Not quite. The original Inquisition only allied with the Chantry at its dissolution. It sought to undo the "tyranny" of magic, something I'm sure most mages, with the exception of the Tevinter magisters, would support. Most mages want nothing more than to be treated as human(or elf, as the case may be).

Adanu, would you be so kind as to direct me to your "silly plan." Sorronar tried to shoot down one of mine earlier and I would like to compare.

Modifié par Auintus, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[silentassassin264]

Auintus they didn't just get rid of any tyranny of magic they were killing people who didn't agree with their religious views. DAA Anders was a devout Andrastian and was just trying to be a normal person. The fact that he didn't want to be subjugated would have been enough to kill him in the Inquisition. I doubt many mages would want to be associated with that.

[LinksOcarina]

Auintus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Can someone explain to me why an inquisition from a historical context is the basis for the fantastical one?

I mean I posted in a thread an hour ago that talked about the Protheans being Ancient Roman in a allegorical sense, but do we have a guarantee that the same is said for the inquisition in Dragon Age III to say the Spanish Inquisition?

There is one similarity. As I recall, the SI was intended to smooth or force conversion from one faith to another. The DAI is meant to settle and bring into the fold, the rebelled mages, the fanatical templars, and the more neutral parties.
...I think...maybe.

I think and maybe is not giving me great confidence...

That said, does that mean were pro templar at all, since the Templars is an organization as much as the inqusitors? 

[Auintus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think and maybe is not giving me great confidence...

That said, does that mean were pro templar at all, since the Templars is an organization as much as the inqusitors? 

It shouldn't. I made most of that up. We still aren't entirely sure what the Inquisition's true goal is.
No. One of the devs explicitly said we are not following the Chantry. Hence, not pro-templar by default.

[LinksOcarina]

Auintus wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think and maybe is not giving me great confidence...

That said, does that mean were pro templar at all, since the Templars is an organization as much as the inqusitors? 

It shouldn't. I made most of that up. We still aren't entirely sure what the Inquisition's true goal is.
No. One of the devs explicitly said we are not following the Chantry. Hence, not pro-templar by default.

So why does this thread exist then? It seems pointless to me. 

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus they didn't just get rid of any tyranny of magic they were killing people who didn't agree with their religious views. DAA Anders was a devout Andrastian and was just trying to be a normal person. The fact that he didn't want to be subjugated would have been enough to kill him in the Inquisition. I doubt many mages would want to be associated with that.

Source?

Regardless, I imagine the stated goal of the Inquisition will be to save the world from itself, words used by Mr.Gaider. The meaning of this, however, I expect to be left for your Inquisitor to decide. The Codex on the Inquisition clearly states that opinion on its actions is divided.

My Inquisitor would say that ridding the world of the tyranny of magic requires segregating all mages everywhere, regardless of their supposedly good intentions. Yours would disagree.

[Auintus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus they didn't just get rid of any tyranny of magic they were killing people who didn't agree with their religious views. DAA Anders was a devout Andrastian and was just trying to be a normal person. The fact that he didn't want to be subjugated would have been enough to kill him in the Inquisition. I doubt many mages would want to be associated with that.

...Where the hell did you get that? Seriously, I think I missed something important.
Nononononono. You misunderstand. The Inquisition stood against the abuse of magic, not its very existence. "Subjugation" is a tricky word here. The Inquisition understood the need to prevent mages from abusing their powers and went to extreme lengths to do so. Anders, until he started blowing things up, just wanted to live. He never stated any intention of abusing his powers, which is what the Inquisition was fighting against.
Seriously, get me the source for your "killing people who didn't agree with their religious views" because I missed that.