1297 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

I don't believe anyone was ever anti-Bronto, so I don't see the problem. :/

[Auintus]

 No way. If I have to be pro-bronto, I'm not gonna buy DA3. You hear that Bioware? No money from me!


:lol:
Good to see some people who don't take this seriously.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

 No way. If I have to be pro-bronto, I'm not gonna buy DA3. You hear that Bioware? No money from me!


:lol:
Good to see some people who don't take this seriously.

Oh no, I take it very seriously.  There are character motivations that need to be done.  Like, say, the Warden must stop the blight.  Everything else is more or less up to the player. However, that's not the same as, say, being forced to be Pro-Werewolf.  Even though I understand the Mage position, I think the Templar position is stronger, but despite that, I don't want any player to be forced into either role when it was a choice in the previous game.

Now, if DA:I is something along the lines of "Blood Mages have kidnapped the Thedas President, are you a badass enough Inquisitor to save him?" then that's a different story.  But assuming it's more "Stop the War" rather than "Stop the faction", I'm okay with that.

[Adanu]

Auintus wrote...

Adanu wrote...



Debating with you people is like hitting my head against a wall.

Prisoner: One who is deprived of liberty against their will.  While some mages would submit to the Circle, few have a choice in the matter.
Slave: One bound in servitude as property.   I don't think that is an entirely accurate descripter for the mages' situation.

How am I wrong?

Asunder. What happened in the books is akin to slavery. It might be 'lessened' from time to time, but in effect Templars always have full control. Sometimes the leash is loosened due to good behavoir.

Even the 'conclave' was ''allowed'. If you don't think that is slavery, we can't have a decent debate or discussion.

[silentassassin264]

Adanu I have tried to explain that before. If they don't want to see that they wont. Just give up. Arguing on the Internet profits nothing.

[Shadow Fox]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Adanu I have tried to explain that before. If they don't want to see that they wont. Just give up. Arguing on the Internet profits nothing.

I hate to be "that guy" but you're kinda assuming everyone shares your idea of what constitutes as slavery.

[thats1evildude]

Adanu wrote...

Asunder. What happened in the books is akin to slavery.

Asunder, where a group of mages were given permission to leave the Circle and carry out an investigation halfway across the country?

The mages are not slaves. They're not forced to do anything. If anything, their situation is more akin to quarantine.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Fredward]

thats1evildude wrote...
The mages are not slaves. They're not forced to do anything. If anything, their situation is more akin to quarantine.

*Permanent incarceration based on an accident of birth. xp

[Lotion Soronarr]

silentassassin264 wrote...

The Codex Seekers of truth says the inquisition hunted heretics and cultists as well as mages. That is what it says word for word. Anders was a heretic because he did not accept their interpretation of magic shall not rule over man. If you don't see that then I have nothing left to say.

What one group can describe as a heretic can very wildly.
I don't think you point stands, since you can't back it up. The only thing you do have is a line saying they hunted "heretics, cultists and mages". We do not know what constitues a heretic for them.

[thats1evildude]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

*Permanent incarceration based on an accident of birth. xp

An accident of birth that can cause mass destruction. It sucks, but so does being torn to pieces by insane abominations.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
The mages are not slaves. They're not forced to do anything. If anything, their situation is more akin to quarantine.

*Permanent incarceration based on an accident of birth. xp

Semi-permanent (some mages are allowed to go free) based on danger to the pupulace.

Do you consider a quaranteene during a deadly virus outbreak a gorss violation of human rights and amoral?
After all, not all people in the quarantene zone are infected.

[Fredward]

thats1evildude wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

*Permanent incarceration based on an accident of birth. xp

An accident of birth that can cause mass destruction. It sucks, but it's being torn to pieces by insane abominations vs. putting mages on a leash. I choose the latter.

-sigh- I can see the reasoning I suppose but I can't help but object on moral grounds. It's like sequestering a segment of society where 1 in 10 (less? WE NEED STATS! xp) go violently insane and kill lots of people so we lock up ALL the people who fall in that segment because of what might happen. We can't base decisions on maybies.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To be fair, the Chantry isn't even willing to send the Mages out in enough numbers to make a difference during a Blight. They sent only 7 Mages -- 8 if you're one -- to fight the Blight.

Whereas if they had sent the majority of Harrowed Mages and a crapton of Templars, Ostagar might've turned out differently -- since Loghain would've accounted for those forces in his plans, being a general and all.

I wish you stopped usiong that stupid argument - no one believed it was a blight.
Everyone believed the forces they had were sufficient.

The lesson is that if the Chantry sanctioned Demonology -- which is not the same thing as blood magic like the Chantry likes to believe, though they do sometimes work in conjunction -- incidents like that wouldn't happen.

Oh? What makes oyu say that?

I for one belive incidents like that would be far more fequent.

It's pointless discussing Mages and Templars with him.

And it's pointless to discuss anything with you.
You are the one wihout arguments, you are the one who makes stuff up and you are the one who doesn't listen.

See? We can go on like this all day.

[thats1evildude]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

-sigh- I can see the reasoning I suppose but I can't help but object on moral grounds. It's like sequestering a segment of society where 1 in 10 (less? WE NEED STATS! xp) go violently insane and kill lots of people so we lock up ALL the people who fall in that segment because of what might happen. We can't base decisions on maybies.

Any stats would be useless. If only 1 in 10 mages become possessed, one could argue the low number was BECAUSE of the Chantry's controls.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
-sigh- I can see the reasoning I suppose but I can't help but object on moral grounds. It's like sequestering a segment of society where 1 in 10 (less? WE NEED STATS! xp) go violently insane and kill lots of people so we lock up ALL the people who fall in that segment because of what might happen. We can't base decisions on maybies.

Sez who?
Yes we can. We did it in the past. And yes we do it today too.

[Warden661]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

*Permanent incarceration based on an accident of birth. xp

An accident of birth that can cause mass destruction. It sucks, but it's being torn to pieces by insane abominations vs. putting mages on a leash. I choose the latter.

-sigh- I can see the reasoning I suppose but I can't help but object on moral grounds. It's like sequestering a segment of society where 1 in 10 (less? WE NEED STATS! xp) go violently insane and kill lots of people so we lock up ALL the people who fall in that segment because of what might happen. We can't base decisions on maybies.

People make decisions based on maybes all the time. Those decisions might not be the best but  they still need to be made. If you just wait for something bad to happen before you act, than it's already too late. It's not a perfect system, it needs some reform, but I would prefer there be Templars there to prevent something horrible before it happens.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The lesson is that if the Chantry sanctioned Demonology -- which is not the same thing as blood magic like the Chantry likes to believe, though they do sometimes work in conjunction -- incidents like that wouldn't happen.

Oh? What makes oyu say that?

I for one belive incidents like that would be far more fequent.

Your beliefs are irrelevant, only facts matter and you have none.


As for the quarantine analogy there's two glaring problems with it. First quarantines are TEMPORARY. Second you can prove the people IN quarantine are sick. You can't prove that all the mages in the Circles will turn into demons.

[Warden661]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The lesson is that if the Chantry sanctioned Demonology -- which is not the same thing as blood magic like the Chantry likes to believe, though they do sometimes work in conjunction -- incidents like that wouldn't happen.

Oh? What makes oyu say that?

I for one belive incidents like that would be far more fequent.

Your beliefs are irrelevant, only facts matter and you have none.


As for the quarantine analogy there's two glaring problems with it. First quarantines are TEMPORARY. Second you can prove the people IN quarantine are sick. You can't prove that all the mages in the Circles will turn into demons.

A quarantine can simply mean forced isolation. It doesn't have to have anything to do with containing diseases. That's just what we most attribute it to.

[Fredward]

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

BoBear wrote...
People make decisions based on maybes all the time. Those decisions might not be the best but  they still need to be made. If you just wait for something bad to happen before you act, than it's already too late. It's not a perfect system, it needs some reform, but I would prefer there be Templars there to prevent something horrible before it happens.

And this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and might never be, commited.

Since you can't really say one person's moral beliefs are superior to another (though I suppose Kohlberg would disagree there xp) we have a stalemate. Which is why there can be no compromise and there can be no peace (yes I'm quoting Anders again STFU ).

[Warden661]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

Wasn't saying it was right. Simply pointing that out.

BoBear wrote...
People make decisions based on maybes all the time. Those decisions might not be the best but  they still need to be made. If you just wait for something bad to happen before you act, than it's already too late. It's not a perfect system, it needs some reform, but I would prefer there be Templars there to prevent something horrible before it happens.

And this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and might never be, commited.

Since you can't really say one person's moral beliefs are superior to another (though I suppose Kohlberg would disagree there xp) we have a stalemate. Which is why there can be no compromise and there can be no peace (yes I'm quoting Anders again STFU ).

Again not saying the 'quarantine' method is/was the best way to go. I'm just saying that there needs to be some action taken before the worst happens IMO. It's never going to be perfect so it will never truely be solved and I honestly don't know how Bioware is going to end DA3. It'll be interesting.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Your beliefs are irrelevant, only facts matter and you have none.

Fair enough - as long as you remeber that your beliefs are irrelevant too, and you also have no facts on the matter.

As for the quarantine analogy there's two glaring problems with it. First quarantines are TEMPORARY. Second you can prove the people IN quarantine are sick. You can't prove that all the mages in the Circles will turn into demons.

Not necessarily to both of those.
If it's some new for of sickness and a detection method hasn't been established yet? That's pratially why you quaranteene a whole city - because you're not sure who IS a carrier and who isn't.

Also quarantenes are temporary only on two conditions:
1) there is a cure
2) you survive

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

If it's for the Greater Good then it cannot be wrong, now can it?

And this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and might never be, commited.

Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

If it's for the Greater Good then it cannot be wrong, now can it?

And this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and might never be, commited.

Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

That has yet to be proven. But the templar order has proven itself to be rapid dog that needs to be put down. Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven. Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights. the templars of thedas will share a similiar fate.

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.  What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much. You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason) i do not support warmongers. 

[Auintus]

Adanu wrote...

Asunder. What happened in the books is akin to slavery. It might be 'lessened' from time to time, but in effect Templars always have full control. Sometimes the leash is loosened due to good behavoir.

Even the 'conclave' was ''allowed'. If you don't think that is slavery, we can't have a decent debate or discussion.

I've read Asunder. It's a prison, occasionally a horrific prison. They forgot about a mage and left him to die with a demon as his only company. But that is different from slavery
Prisoners' rights are restricted, a slaves are non-existant. Prisoners can't have there own meeting unless it is allowed by their wardens(templars). They are not slaves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

That has yet to be proven. But the templar order has proven itself to be rapid dog that needs to be put down. Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven. Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights. the templars of thedas will share a similiar fate.

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.  What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much. You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason) i do not support warmongers. 

Blah, blah, blah. Spare me your propaganda speeches. Also, learn some history while you're at it.

The danger of mages has already has been proven.
No sane person can argue that free mages would result in a safer world. We already seen what a single mage outside cna do, and yet you somehow think - contrary ot all reason and common sense - that having thousands of mages running around will be safe?

Also, the warmongers are the mages. Everything is their fault. Everything.