1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

If it's for the Greater Good then it cannot be wrong, now can it?

And this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and might never be, commited.

Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

That has yet to be proven. But the templar order has proven itself to be rapid dog that needs to be put down. Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven. Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights. the templars of thedas will share a similiar fate.

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.  What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much. You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason) i do not support warmongers. 

As much as I hate to defend Soronnar, I don't think he supports the fanatic zealots. He supports the reinstitution of the Circle, obviously, but I don't think he sides with the defectors. I could be wrong.

[Dave of Canada]

DKJaigen wrote...

Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven.

I agree! Put down the mages, execute the Divine and place one sympathetic to our cause.

Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights.

Honorable men and women!

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.

You seem to be confused, my good man. We're talking about the templar, not the mages! Easy enough mistake to make, though.

What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much.

Of course you don't, you're just trying to justify your moral position without thinking much on it. It's understandable.

You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry

The Templar Order was betrayed by the Divine, my good man. No need to support any crazy old woman, we'll be perfectly fine overthrowing her and putting someone of more reasonable standards onto her position. I'm sure the Maker won't mind because after all, the Templar Order (formely Inquisition) was only allied with the Chantry for benefitial purposes.

and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason)

They didn't begin it, those filthy mages did! They need to uphold their duty to the Maker and make sure those filthy mages don't get any ideas of indepedence and freedom!

i do not support warmongers. 

Yet you are one.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 novembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

That has yet to be proven. But the templar order has proven itself to be rapid dog that needs to be put down. Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven. Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights. the templars of thedas will share a similiar fate.

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.  What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much. You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason) i do not support warmongers. 

Blah, blah, blah. Spare me your propaganda speeches. Also, learn some history while you're at it.

The danger of mages has already has been proven.
No sane person can argue that free mages would result in a safer world. We already seen what a single mage outside cna do, and yet you somehow think - contrary ot all reason and common sense - that having thousands of mages running around will be safe?

Also, the warmongers are the mages. Everything is their fault. Everything.

No, the warmongers are a few of the mages who got fed up with being in a prison, occasionally a horrific prison. Bearing in mind that I agree with you that a Circle is neccesary, the Templars have really broken the system down.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blah, blah, blah. Spare me your propaganda speeches. Also, learn some history while you're at it.

The danger of mages has already has been proven.
No sane person can argue that free mages would result in a safer world. We already seen what a single mage outside cna do, and yet you somehow think - contrary ot all reason and common sense - that having thousands of mages running around will be safe?

Also, the warmongers are the mages. Everything is their fault. Everything.

Most mages want war no more than any other man. They want freedom and are willing to fight for it. The subjugation of the mages resulted in their willingness to fight for freedom and you fault the mages for that? How many peoples across the world fought for the right of self-determination?
Everything is the mages' fault? A few rogue mages become the straw that breaks the camel's back and you fault them for the entire situation? Have you forgotten that Orsino tried to defuse the situation in Kirkwall following Anders' actions? He agreed to submit to whatever actions Meredith deemed necessary short of annulment, but she wouldn't listen.

[Dave of Canada]

Auintus wrote...

How many peoples across the world fought for the right of self-determination?

One. The non-mages overthrew the mages.

Everything is the mages' fault? A few rogue mages become the straw that breaks the camel's back and you fault them for the entire situation?

Considering the mages voted to go to war, yes.

Have you forgotten that Orsino tried to defuse the situation in Kirkwall following Anders' actions? He agreed to submit to whatever actions Meredith deemed necessary short of annulment, but she wouldn't listen.

He didn't want to do that until circumstance forced Meredith into having permission to do what she pleased, it wouldn't have gotten that far had he allowed an inspection because Meredith wanted to investigate who was a blood mage and who wasn't. Surprise! Orsino was one.

[Auintus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Auintus wrote...

How many peoples across the world fought for the right of self-determination?

One. The non-mages overthrew the mages.

I meant in the real world. Besides, the Inquisition fought against mages and non-mages abusing abnormal abilities, not all mages do that.

Everything is the mages' fault? A few rogue mages become the straw that breaks the camel's back and you fault them for the entire situation?

Considering the mages voted to go to war, yes.

The mages voted for freedom from the Circle. War was the result, not the choice.

Have you forgotten that Orsino tried to defuse the situation in Kirkwall following Anders' actions? He agreed to submit to whatever actions Meredith deemed necessary short of annulment, but she wouldn't listen.

He didn't want to do that until circumstance forced Meredith into having permission to do what she pleased, it wouldn't have gotten that far had he allowed an inspection because Meredith wanted to investigate who was a blood mage and who wasn't. Surprise! Orsino was one.

Anders would've blown it up anyway and Meredith would have tried to annul the Circle anyway. There was no reason for Meredith to suspect blood magic within the Circle in the first place. Orsino was trying to protect the little privacy that Circle mages possess.
Dumat's blood, this again? Orsino was not a practicing blood mage. He turned to blood magic in despair(side mages) or desperation(side templars) and only when pushed. He chose forbidden magic over certain death. He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

[silentassassin264]

@Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke
You aren't that guy. You are still proving my point. I still see it as slavery and none of the not slavery arguments have affected my judgement. Since I am still debating with people over it, my arguments have not convinced people either. We are at an impasse. All we can do is hope Bioware realizes people feel strongly about it both ways.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

silentassassin264 wrote...

@Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke
You aren't that guy. You are still proving my point. I still see it as slavery and none of the not slavery arguments have affected my judgement. Since I am still debating with people over it, my arguments have not convinced people either. We are at an impasse. All we can do is hope Bioware realizes people feel strongly about it both ways.

@Silent
And hope that Bioware lets us argue semantics over whether or not its slavery, apparently.

Honestly, I think everything else of importance on this thread is covered somewhere in this game. (Apart from commentaries on the events of Asunder.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 novembre 2012 - 05:14 .

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As for the quarantine analogy there's two glaring problems with it. First quarantines are TEMPORARY. Second you can prove the people IN quarantine are sick. You can't prove that all the mages in the Circles will turn into demons.

Not necessarily to both of those.
If it's some new for of sickness and a detection method hasn't been established yet? That's pratially why you quaranteene a whole city - because you're not sure who IS a carrier and who isn't.

Also quarantenes are temporary only on two conditions:
1) there is a cure
2) you survive

The quarantine analogy still doesn't work. Because mages are born out of the circles every day and the "quarantine" has been going on for nearly a thousand years and the "disease" has yet to die out. It ain't a quarantine; it's permanent incarceration based on birth (I want this phrase added to like Dragon age lingo or some such XD). But I don't really know why we're debating semantics anyway. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. xp

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

If it's for the Greater Good then it cannot be wrong, now can it? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

And
this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It
comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth
it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into
monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some
people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something
that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and
might never be, commited.

Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

Ah yes, the greater good argument. Used to justify atrocities the world over from the Final Solution to eugenics and social Darwinism. If we listen to Kohlberg this is the social-contract orientation I think. Where if it is good for society/ the collective it must be good. Mind you it doesn't have to be good for society, you just have to believe it is. But ANYWAY.

There is nothing wrong with this view. I can understand the "greater good" reasoning. I thought like that a coupla years back too, not on this topic obviously but w/e. Neither decision, the one to keep mages in Circles, or the one to let them go free is made with malicious intent, I'd hope. It's just different ways of viewing the world and what is right and what is wrong. You believe it is right to lock mages up because they are potentially dangerous, I believe it is wrong to punish a collective because of the way they were born and for possible crimes. Different ways of viewing things, they do not mesh = conflict.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Everything
is the mages' fault? A few rogue mages become the straw that breaks the
camel's back and you fault them for the entire situation?

Considering the mages voted to go to war, yes.

Tut, tut, tut Mr. Dave of Canada. Such a one sided view SHALL NOT PASS.

The mages only officially declared war after the templars seceded from the Chantry and basically said there job was now killing everything that could burp fire. Mages AND templars contributed to the state of affairs. Although I think the mages' actions were justified, but I would, wouldn't I?

[Dave of Canada]

Auintus wrote...

I meant in the real world.

Hardly relevant, then.

Besides, the Inquisition fought against mages and non-mages abusing abnormal abilities, not all mages do that.

Those who do are insanely dangerous and not all mages do so willingly.

The mages voted for freedom from the Circle. War was the result, not the choice.

When the choice has war as a consequence and they're all aware of it....

There was no reason for Meredith to suspect blood magic within the Circle in the first place.

Except for all the blood mages.

Orsino was trying to protect the little privacy that Circle mages possess.

Or himself.

Dumat's blood, this again? Orsino was not a practicing blood mage. He turned to blood magic in despair(side mages) or desperation(side templars) and only when pushed. He chose forbidden magic over certain death. He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

Blood Magic isn't only wiggling fingers and it works, there's entire tomes devoted to studying how to use blood magic. To use such a powerful spell with proficiency obviously implies some practice in the art.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The mages only officially declared war after the templars seceded from the Chantry and basically said there job was now killing everything that could burp fire.

Lambert's letter was only sent out after all the Circles rebelled and fled to Orlais.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 novembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Fredward]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The mages only officially declared war after the templars seceded from the Chantry and basically said there job was now killing everything that could burp fire.

Lambert's letter was only sent out after all the Circles rebelled and fled to Orlais.

Oopsies, you're right. But they only rebelled after Lambert interrupted a totally legal gathering and killed some first enchanters. And according to Wynne and Evangeline he'd been planning this attack since the meeting with the Divine. And when the fight started the mages were fighting in defense until a templar killed one of them while he/she was trying to surrender. The templars were foaming at the mouth long before the official seceding.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 25 novembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[BlueMagitek]

Wait, wait, what? There wasn't a reason to investigate the Kirkwall Circle? Did you ignore all of the blood mages, abominations and Mage/Templar escapades? Given the amount of problems going on in the city, investigations should be done at least on a weekly basis. >.>

[Iakus]

Has anyone considered the idea that a new Inquisition might be an attempt, or at least an opportunity to "find another way"? Something different from the Circle of Magi, or the magisters, or anything else? Maybe this Inquisition could find an entirely new path?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

lol The blood mages are shameless .. how many times should they declare their Libertarianism through being blood(y) mages, that ironically ends in slavery and destruction?
I think all this Pro-Blood-Mage comments should be based on hatred toward chantry ... there is no other reason.

[BlueMagitek]

^ Now, that isn't entirely fair. Some blood mages do accomplish good things and without wanting complete domination of all things. Like Avernus.

...and that's all I'm getting, really. >.>

Blood Magic is useful as Lyrium seems to be an unsustainable resource. The only problem is that Blood Magic allows so many things that we can't really fight against.

[In Exile]

Auintus wrote..
Dumat's blood, this again? Orsino was not a practicing blood mage. He turned to blood magic in despair(side mages) or desperation(side templars) and only when pushed. He chose forbidden magic over certain death. He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

This argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying "Joe turned to astrophysics when pushed." Blood magic is a skill - you have to learn it to use it. Orsino can't just wake-up and go, "I think today I'll be a spirit healer!".

He clearly knew how to use the magic, which is what people are focusing on when they say that he was a blood mage (basically, like Jowan, who did not use, as far as we know, BM before he escaped in the Mage origin).

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

That has yet to be proven. But the templar order has proven itself to be rapid dog that needs to be put down. Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven. Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights. the templars of thedas will share a similiar fate.

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.  What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much. You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason) i do not support warmongers. 

Blah, blah, blah. Spare me your propaganda speeches. Also, learn some history while you're at it.

The danger of mages has already has been proven.
No sane person can argue that free mages would result in a safer world. We already seen what a single mage outside cna do, and yet you somehow think - contrary ot all reason and common sense - that having thousands of mages running around will be safe?

Also, the warmongers are the mages. Everything is their fault. Everything.

Really ? Lambert is the one that decided to start the war and the other templars followed him. Through that action hundreds of thousands of people have died. Far more then a action of any mage. I shall protect the common people from the  murderous filth that is the templar order by eradicating them utterly. its the only way the common people will be spared from the horrors of war. Oh btw i dont give a damn about the mages right now.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 25 novembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...


Lambert's letter was only sent out after all the Circles rebelled and fled to Orlais.

And never once tried diplomacy to spare the common people from war. Do you know why? Because his motive is to establish a new order. he is drunk on power and he seeks greater glory by stepping on the corpses of mages and common people alike. Creating a non existant enemy is the tool of every tyrant in history.

[DKJaigen]

Auintus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

^ Separating some people for the greater good of the populace basically. Still wrong. xp

If it's for the Greater Good then it cannot be wrong, now can it?

And this is what this argument will inevitably break down to every time. It comes down to different morality systems. Some people think it is worth it to lock up innocent people on the fact that they might turn into monsters and kill people, or that they might take over the world. Some people (moi) think it is wrong for people to be locked up for something that they had no hand in (their birth) or for crimes that have not, and might never be, commited.

Actually I presonally see it as a simple math:
if mages go free, thousands die.
if mages are locked up, they dont.

I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

That has yet to be proven. But the templar order has proven itself to be rapid dog that needs to be put down. Treason on this scale is not to be forgiven. Their idiotic arrogance is similiar to our own world teutonic knights. the templars of thedas will share a similiar fate.

Your support of a bunch of warmongers that plunged the entire world of thedas into war is funny. Saying its for the good of the people is hillarious because these people are now dying in droves because of the actions of the templar order.  What the mages really need in terms of protection remains to be seen and to be honest i really no longer care about it that much. You need to convince me how you support the templars while they are traitors to the chantry and orlais ( beginning a war without permission from the existing goverment is treason) i do not support warmongers. 

As much as I hate to defend Soronnar, I don't think he supports the fanatic zealots. He supports the reinstitution of the Circle, obviously, but I don't think he sides with the defectors. I could be wrong.

right now im not looking at the situation as a pro mage but as an anti templar. The templar order has created this cluster**** that cost hundred of thousand of people their live. even the chantry loyalist cannot be trusted. Who says the new templar order doesnt fall in the same patern? religious dogma cannot be changed easily.
If the mages need to be regulated it should be done by the monarchies not untrustworthy fools like the templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Most mages want war no more than any other man. They want freedom and are willing to fight for it. The subjugation of the mages resulted in their willingness to fight for freedom and you fault the mages for that? How many peoples across the world fought for the right of self-determination?

Mages can't accept their position and all they do is whine, whine and whine some more, even they don't have it nearly as bad as some of you claim.

They cannot claim that "right" without endangering everyone else. And everyone lese has the right to self-defense from that danger by putting them down.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
The mages voted for freedom from the Circle. War was the result, not the choice.

They knew very well what would happen. They chose war.

Anders would've blown it up anyway and Meredith would have tried to annul the Circle anyway.

Proof?

There was no reason for Meredith to suspect blood magic within the Circle in the first place. Orsino was trying to protect the little privacy that Circle mages possess.

There was EVERY reason.
And the very fact that full sweep of the tower is considered a big thing tells you just how much privacy mages really posees.

He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

Not bloody likely.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
The quarantine analogy still doesn't work. Because mages are born out of the circles every day and the "quarantine" has been going on for nearly a thousand years and the "disease" has yet to die out. It ain't a quarantine; it's permanent incarceration based on birth.

It works in hte specific contect of comparison. You cna nitpick of course, but that's just drawing attention from the crux of the matter.
Thousands of people are saved by it, so the circle system works.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm morally obligated to try and save the thousands.
The lives of the many outweight the conveneinces of a few.

Ah yes, the greater good argument. Used to justify atrocities the world over from the Final Solution to eugenics and social Darwinism. If we listen to Kohlberg this is the social-contract orientation I think. Where if it is good for society/ the collective it must be good. Mind you it doesn't have to be good for society, you just have to believe it is. But ANYWAY.

...and also used to justify your liberation of mages by you.
After all if morality is the ultimate good/right thing and the ONLY thing that matters, then you ARE doing it for the greater good too...only by a different name.

There is nothing wrong with this view. I can understand the "greater good" reasoning. I thought like that a coupla years back too, not on this topic obviously but w/e. Neither decision, the one to keep mages in Circles, or the one to let them go free is made with malicious intent, I'd hope. It's just different ways of viewing the world and what is right and what is wrong. You believe it is right to lock mages up because they are potentially dangerous, I believe it is wrong to punish a collective because of the way they were born and for possible crimes. Different ways of viewing things, they do not mesh = conflict.

The difference between the two of us is that oyu are so focused on the moral issue that you ignore everything else.
The practical aspects namely.

Locking up mages is a horrid thing to do - yet it's the lesser evil.
And paradoxicly, as much as I'm a staunch believer of "the third option" and "there must be another way" - sometimes there isn't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Wait, wait, what? There wasn't a reason to investigate the Kirkwall Circle? Did you ignore all of the blood mages, abominations and Mage/Templar escapades? Given the amount of problems going on in the city, investigations should be done at least on a weekly basis. >.>

Try telling that to the mage supporters.
They would make fantastical police officers and make Clouseau proud.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
And never once tried diplomacy to spare the common people from war. Do you know why? Because his motive is to establish a new order. he is drunk on power and he seeks greater glory by stepping on the corpses of mages and common people alike. Creating a non existant enemy is the tool of every tyrant in history.

Hmm...mages seem pretty existant to me.

And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

[MisterJB]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The mages only officially declared war after the templars seceded from the Chantry and basically said there job was now killing everything that could burp fire.

Lambert's letter was only sent out after all the Circles rebelled and fled to Orlais.

Oopsies, you're right. But they only rebelled after Lambert interrupted a totally legal gathering and killed some first enchanters. And according to Wynne and Evangeline he'd been planning this attack since the meeting with the Divine. And when the fight started the mages were fighting in defense until a templar killed one of them while he/she was trying to surrender. The templars were foaming at the mouth long before the official seceding.

That was caused by Adrian who killed Pharamond exactly to incite Lambert towards violence. She bears half the guilt.
And Lambert was only there to apreend Rhys because there were extremely compelling evidence that he was the murderer of the White Spire which turned out to be true. He had been preparing for trouble but that doesn't mean he was planning it all along.
And if the templars were "foaming at the mouth" it was because of Anders' terrorist attack and the recent magical attempt of the Divine's life. Now you can tell me how Anders commited it because of Meredith and so and so forth until this takes us back a two thousand years to the foundation of the Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 novembre 2012 - 08:13 .