1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...

That was caused by Adrian who killed Pharamond exactly to incite Lambert towards violence. She bears half the guilt.
And Lambert was only there to apreend Rhys because there were extremely compelling evidence that he was the murderer of the White Spire which turned out to be true. He had been preparing for trouble but that doesn't mean he was planning it all along.
And if the templars were "foaming at the mouth" it was because of Anders' terrorist attack and the recent magical attempt of the Divine's life. Now you can tell me how Anders commited it because of Meredith and so and so forth until this takes us back a two thousand years to the foundation of the Tevinter Imperium.

Yes, yes she does. She might have instigated Lambert's actions but it was still he who decided which actions to take. And Rhys was the White Tower murderer? I thought that was Cole. Anders was an apostate operating alone, the very fact that Meredith called for the Right of Annulment when the Circle had NOTHING to do with it lays the blame squarely on her crazy posterior. The attempt on the Divine's life was also an act by one mage, why should the rest be punished?

And my memory is vague here but wasn't Rhys under room arrest when Pharamond got offed? It made no sense to blame him for the murder then. If I'm remembering correctly.

[Inquisitor Arc]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

You can't paint all the mages with the same brush. Surely there is a compromise that can be reached that protects both parties.

[Adanu]

It's left ambiguous whether or not Rhys was actually the murder. An implication, not a direct fact.

It could easily have been Cole that did all of it, we'll never know for sure unless Gaider says so.

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

You can't paint all the mages with the same brush. Surely there is a compromise that can be reached that protects both parties.

Not for him. People like him only see the potentia land maybes and seek prevention, not reaction. People like him are why the mages rebelled.

Modifié par Adanu, 25 novembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[MisterJB]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Yes, yes she does. She might have instigated Lambert's actions but it was still he who decided which actions to take. And Rhys was the White Tower murderer? I thought that was Cole. Anders was an apostate operating alone, the very fact that Meredith called for the Right of Annulment when the Circle had NOTHING to do with it lays the blame squarely on her crazy posterior. The attempt on the Divine's life was also an act by one mage, why should the rest be punished?

And my memory is vague here but wasn't Rhys under room arrest when Pharamond got offed? It made no sense to blame him for the murder then. If I'm remembering correctly.

It was strongly implied Cole mind controlled Rhys to commit the murders without even knowying he was doing so.
And while Rhys was under room arrest, early in the novel had managed to evade it before being found by Evangeline. Thus, there were reasons to suspect he might have done it again.

The point is not that all mages should be punished by the actions of a few. Only that with two recent terrorist attacks against the Chantry and two rebellious Circles, it is only natural and expected for templars to be on high alert. And, let's face, blaming all for the actions of a few is a staple of mankind. Mundanes do it, mages do it.

[MisterJB]

This might be the first ever I saw reaction being lauded above prevention. So, in your opinion, the moment to take action is after the attack has happened and innocents are dead.
Good thing those in charge of National Security don't share that opinion.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Wait, wait, what? There wasn't a reason to investigate the Kirkwall Circle? Did you ignore all of the blood mages, abominations and Mage/Templar escapades? Given the amount of problems going on in the city, investigations should be done at least on a weekly basis. >.>

The dialogue implied that it was something out of the ordinary, something beyond the measures that should(and probably would) have been put in place following several storyline events. Nothing happens immediately previously to the last straw that would provoke such an act. Nothing changed after Best Served Cold. Nothing changed after On the Loose. Why just then? Nothing significant seemed to have happened. Adequate measures should have been put into place ages ago, rather than on a whim.

[LinksOcarina]

Isen't the book its own canon and there is no guarantee that this Rhys guy will be involved anyway, let alone his entire story will be mentioned. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 25 novembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

You can't paint all the mages with the same brush. Surely there is a compromise that can be reached that protects both parties.

If only we had a system of towers where mages can live separated and safe, watched over by warriors capable of delaing with them should things go worng....

OH WAIT!

[Auintus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I meant in the real world.

Hardly relevant, then.

Real-world logic cannot be applied to dragon age? Then I fail to see how any concerns of death are relevent. They are all just data.

Besides, the Inquisition fought against mages and non-mages abusing abnormal abilities, not all mages do that.

Those who do are insanely dangerous and not all mages do so willingly.

Yes, the insane must be dealt with and mages can be trained to resist possession. That isn't going to change.

The mages voted for freedom from the Circle. War was the result, not the choice.

When the choice has war as a consequence and they're all aware of it....

They understood it as a likelyhood. As free people, they would only need to act in defense of those who threatened that freedom.

There was no reason for Meredith to suspect blood magic within the Circle in the first place.

Except for all the blood mages.

Who uses blood magic besides Orsino, and even he uses it only as a last resort.

Dumat's blood, this again? Orsino was not a practicing blood mage. He turned to blood magic in despair(side mages) or desperation(side templars) and only when pushed. He chose forbidden magic over certain death. He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

Blood Magic isn't only wiggling fingers and it works, there's entire tomes devoted to studying how to use blood magic. To use such a powerful spell with proficiency obviously implies some practice in the art.

Studying blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. One can know it and not exercise it.

[Fredward]

MisterJB wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Yes, yes she does. She might have instigated Lambert's actions but it was still he who decided which actions to take. And Rhys was the White Tower murderer? I thought that was Cole. Anders was an apostate operating alone, the very fact that Meredith called for the Right of Annulment when the Circle had NOTHING to do with it lays the blame squarely on her crazy posterior. The attempt on the Divine's life was also an act by one mage, why should the rest be punished?

And my memory is vague here but wasn't Rhys under room arrest when Pharamond got offed? It made no sense to blame him for the murder then. If I'm remembering correctly.

It was strongly implied Cole mind controlled Rhys to commit the murders without even knowying he was doing so.
And while Rhys was under room arrest, early in the novel had managed to evade it before being found by Evangeline. Thus, there were reasons to suspect he might have done it again.

The point is not that all mages should be punished by the actions of a few. Only that with two recent terrorist attacks against the Chantry and two rebellious Circles, it is only natural and expected for templars to be on high alert. And, let's face, blaming all for the actions of a few is a staple of mankind. Mundanes do it, mages do it.

And this makes it okay? People in power are supposed to be rational beings capable of separating their emotions from the decision making process.

MisterJB wrote...
This might be the first ever I saw
reaction being lauded above prevention. So, in your opinion, the moment
to take action is after the attack has happened and innocents are dead.

The Circle's where on the verge of voting to remain with the Chantry until Lambert's templar killed the mage trying to surrender. If that hadn't happened Adrien's machinations would have been for naught. And wanting to imprison/kill Rhys based on suspicions is a travesty of justice (lol I've always wanted to use that phrase xp). Not that the templars need justice.

OH! And my opinion is that people shouldn't be killed and/or imprisoned before they commited a crime. Prevention would have been stationing templars outside of the hall in case the mages came out shrieking and killing people, moving in on the mages while they were holding A TOTALLY LEGAL meeting and demanding a participating member's immediate arrest based on suspicions and then killing mages who were trying to surrender ain't "prevention."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
Not for him. People like him only see the potentia land maybes and seek prevention, not reaction. People like him are why the mages rebelled.

Because prevention is a sensible thing to seek?

I'd rather stop a bullet from hitting me rather then react to it once it does....

Reaction is rather ineffective

[Auintus]

In Exile wrote...

Auintus wrote..
Dumat's blood, this again? Orsino was not a practicing blood mage. He turned to blood magic in despair(side mages) or desperation(side templars) and only when pushed. He chose forbidden magic over certain death. He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

This argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying "Joe turned to astrophysics when pushed." Blood magic is a skill - you have to learn it to use it. Orsino can't just wake-up and go, "I think today I'll be a spirit healer!".

He clearly knew how to use the magic, which is what people are focusing on when they say that he was a blood mage (basically, like Jowan, who did not use, as far as we know, BM before he escaped in the Mage origin).

Sure he can. Study the techniques of spirit healing, but never put them into practice. Then, wake up and say "Alright, let's contact the Fade and heal some people!"
He knew how to use it, that doesn't make him a blood mage. Irving had tomes on blood magic in his office. I don't doubt he has read them. He just never uses it.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
The mages voted for freedom from the Circle. War was the result, not the choice.

They knew very well what would happen. They chose war.

They knew it would happen, yes. They chose freedom and war resulted when they chose to defend it. Should I allow myself to suffer because to resist would cause conflict?

Anders would've blown it up anyway and Meredith would have tried to annul the Circle anyway.

Proof?

The fact that he plants that bomb long before the last straw and Meredith only resorted to annulment after the explosion.

He did not practice blood magic beforehand and only knew the one ritual from Quentin's notes.

Not bloody likely.

"The thing is...Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." What reason would he have to lie at that point?

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Most mages want war no more than any other man. They want freedom and are willing to fight for it. The subjugation of the mages resulted in their willingness to fight for freedom and you fault the mages for that? How many peoples across the world fought for the right of self-determination?

Mages can't accept their position and all they do is whine, whine and whine some more, even they don't have it nearly as bad as some of you claim.

They cannot claim that "right" without endangering everyone else. And everyone lese has the right to self-defense from that danger by putting them down.

Oh, yes, shame those uppity slaves and their inability to accept that they are nothing more then property in the eyes of real men. Pfft.

So I should kill everyone because they possess the ability to kill me? Once upon a time I wondered if that would let someone get away with murder. Turns out it doesn't. Who knew?

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

...I see. All your arguments stem from this single misconception.

Name me a dozen mages that seek power at the cost of all else. The deranged are allowed, the magisters are not.
How often do mages actively seek to harm others? Jowan protects a group of common folk seemingly for the hell of it. Mages help protect Fereldan from the Blight. Orsino just wants to protect those that he considers his charges.

Put bluntly: Your statement here is wrong. Until you accept that you cannot judge a man by his abilities, you will remain blind.
I hope you're just playing your part, because I won't be able to take you seriously anymore.

[MisterJB]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And this makes it okay? People in power are supposed to be rational beings capable of separating their emotions from the decision making process.

There is little about this situation that is okay.
People in power are humans too and there is an enormous "mundane vs mage" mentality in Thedas.

The Circle's where on the verge of voting to remain with the Chantry until Lambert's templar killed the mage trying to surrender. If that hadn't happened Adrien's machinations would have been for naught. And wanting to imprison/kill Rhys based on suspicions is a travesty of justice (lol I've always wanted to use that phrase xp). Not that the templars need justice.

Prevention would have been stationing templars outside of the hall in case the mages came out shrieking and killing people, moving in on the mages while they were holding A TOTALLY LEGAL meeting and demanding a participating member's immediate arrest based on suspicions and then killing mages who were trying to surrender ain't "prevention."

This wasnt actually meant for you.
At any rate, the authorities have the duty to arrest anyone if presented with strong evidence that person commited a crime, regarldess of who it is or what it is doing at the moment. The weapon of the crime under the bed of the prime suspect is widely considered as strong evidence.
Now, I don't support Lambert's actions because he was manipulated by Adrian but it was under his complete legal duty to arrest Rhys. The mages should have cooperated, it would have avoided the violence. And no, the templars shouldn't have killed mages who attempted to surrender.
Adrian murdered Pharamond exactly because it came across as a political move rather than just another random murder.

OH! And my opinion is that people shouldn't be killed and/or imprisoned before they commited a crime.

And my opinion is that water and acid are not the same thing and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

You can't paint all the mages with the same brush. Surely there is a compromise that can be reached that protects both parties.

If only we had a system of towers where mages can live separated and safe, watched over by warriors capable of delaing with them should things go worng....

OH WAIT!

That is, in fact, the point of the Circle. The problem is that the Templars are abusing their power. This is what should stop, or at least be sharply curbed. (Because it's never going to stop completely.) The fact remains, however that unqualified mage freedom is unsafe, at least until the Circle has finished driving it home that the mage should not abuse their power, seeing whether or not that lesson took, and testing their aptitude for resisting demons. Not being a Thedosian mage myself, I'm not sure how good the Harrowing is for that, but it's better than Amelia Stannard got.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 novembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Auintus wrote...
Should I allow myself to suffer because to resist would cause conflict?[/quote]

Yes?
After all, it is morally right to sacrifice your own well-bing for others.


[quote]
[quote]
Anders would've blown it up anyway and Meredith would have tried to annul the Circle anyway. [/quote]
Proof?[/quote]

The fact that he plants that bomb long before the last straw and Meredith only resorted to annulment after the explosion.[/quote]

How does this prove Meredith would have order the annulment if Anders didn't do his little act of terrorism?
It doesn't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages can't accept their position and all they do is whine, whine and whine some more, even they don't have it nearly as bad as some of you claim.

They cannot claim that "right" without endangering everyone else. And everyone lese has the right to self-defense from that danger by putting them down.

Oh, yes, shame those uppity slaves and their inability to accept that they are nothing more then property in the eyes of real men. Pfft.

So I should kill everyone because they possess the ability to kill me? Once upon a time I wondered if that would let someone get away with murder. Turns out it doesn't. Who knew?

We already established they aren't slaves, so there's no point in arguing in that direction.

And as we ALSO established, mages aren't like other people.
We DO lock up people who we deem are too dangerous b.t.w.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And they are dangerous, deranged and untrustworthy and guilty of all ills that has befallen TheDas.
Their motive is power and the establishment of a new order and suffering for the common man. DOWN WITH MAGES!

...I see. All your arguments stem from this single misconception.

Name me a dozen mages that seek power at the cost of all else. The deranged are allowed, the magisters are not.
How often do mages actively seek to harm others? Jowan protects a group of common folk seemingly for the hell of it. Mages help protect Fereldan from the Blight. Orsino just wants to protect those that he considers his charges.

Put bluntly: Your statement here is wrong. Until you accept that you cannot judge a man by his abilities, you will remain blind.
I hope you're just playing your part, because I won't be able to take you seriously anymore.

What do they say about making fun of fundies by using sarcasm again?
My powst was deliberately written mimicking the pro-mage zealots.

But as for your second part: No.
I can judge a man by his extra-ordinary abilities.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If only we had a system of towers where mages can live separated and safe, watched over by warriors capable of delaing with them should things go worng....

OH WAIT!

That is, in fact, the point of the Circle. The problem is that the Templars are abusing their power. This is what should stop, or at least be sharply curbed. (Because it's never going to stop completely.) The fact remains, however that unqualified mage freedom is unsafe, at least until the Circle has finished driving it home that the mage should not abuse their power, seeing whether or not that lesson took, and testing their aptitude for resisting demons. Not being a Thedosian mage myself, I'm not sure how good the Harrowing is for that, but it's better than Amelia Stannard got.

No, the point is that templars aren't abusing their power any more than anyone else in Thedas is.
Mages AREN'T worse off than a commoner but they whine very loudly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Auintus wrote...
Should I allow myself to suffer because to resist would cause conflict?[/quote]

Yes?
After all, it is morally right to sacrifice your own well-bing for others. [/quote]

Yeah, but it's understandable to be incapable of it. And it's morally justified to offer people your middle finger if they try to take more of your well-being than they're justified in taking, as is the case with this system more often than you seem to adknowledge. (Though less than Plaintiff does.)

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
Anders would've blown it up anyway and Meredith would have tried to annul the Circle anyway. [/quote]
Proof?[/quote]

The fact that he plants that bomb long before the last straw and Meredith only resorted to annulment after the explosion.[/quote]

How does this prove Meredith would have order the annulment if Anders didn't do his little act of terrorism?
It doesn't.
[/quote]

I couldn't find too much of this orignal exchange, but let's see if this resolves it in either of your favor; Meredith had already tried to annul the Circle. We have that from Gaider and an in-game templar. According to Gaider, the only thing that Anders changed by the explosion was that Meredeath was now legally authorized to do so, since the Grand Cleric and her potential successors were all dead, and someone needs to be legally empowered to make the Godzilla Threshold judgement.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 novembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[Palidane]

A question to the pro-mages:

Would you be alright with a modified circle system where the Templars and Mages were equal partners, but in most other ways similar to the current one?

Modifié par Palidane, 25 novembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Palidane wrote...

A question to the pro-mages:

Would you be alright with a modified circle system where the Templars and Mages were equal partners, but in most other ways similar to the current one?

That's exactly what I'm trying to argue for. It won't happen, most likely, since in Thedas the only thing that can go right is killing an archdemon, but it's what would work best.

[Inquisitor Arc]

It will have to happen sooner or later since eventually a majority of the population will have magical abilities.