1297 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Adanu wrote...

The vast majority of Thedas has a choice in how they live their lives. Mages do not.

And this choice is more important than being healthy, relatively safe and alive?  Not needing to worry about a plague, a famine, bandits, wars between nations?  Valuing absolute freedom in Thedas of all places isn't the best of ideas.

Fuggyt wrote...

Yes, you're right!  Because there are peasants and wars and plagues and famines and poverty, that makes legal kidnapping, forced relocation, and breaking up families perfectly legitimate!  Two wrongs do in fact make a right!  Thank you for removing the scales from my eyes! That explains why so many homeless people in our society are volunteering for state prison.

I'm glad you agree that security is sometimes preferable to freedom.

[The Hierophant]

Fuggyt wrote...

Yes, you're right!  Because there are peasants and wars and plagues and famines and poverty, that makes legal kidnapping, forced relocation, and breaking up families perfectly legitimate!  

Naw, mages being preyed on 24/7, and possessed by chaotic entities is the only legitimate reason for them to be quarantined the way they are.

[Fuggyt]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Adanu wrote...

The vast majority of Thedas has a choice in how they live their lives. Mages do not.

And this choice is more important than being healthy, relatively safe and alive?  Not needing to worry about a plague, a famine, bandits, wars between nations?  Valuing absolute freedom in Thedas of all places isn't the best of ideas.

Fuggyt wrote...

Yes, you're right!  Because there are peasants and wars and plagues and famines and poverty, that makes legal kidnapping, forced relocation, and breaking up families perfectly legitimate!  Two wrongs do in fact make a right!  Thank you for removing the scales from my eyes! That explains why so many homeless people in our society are volunteering for state prison

I'm glad you agree that security is sometimes preferable to freedom.

Your Sarcasm Detector is malfunctioning.  Security is never preferable to freedom.  But don't take my word for it.  Take Ben Franklin's, who said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[BlueMagitek]

Fuggyt wrote...

Your Sarcasm Detector is malfunctioning.  Security is never preferable to freedom.  But don't take my word for it.  Take Ben Franklin's, who said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I'm not sure he's really applicable to this conversation.  Especially in a world where freedom only exists for the highest of nobility.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

As long as the abductees are somehow equal partners to their state-sanctioned kidnappers?  

No.

Freedom is indivisible.  You either have it or you don't.  It's also non-negotiable.  Never settle for anything less.

The vast majority of Thedas has it worse off than Circle mages, with less freedom and more abuse and troubles heaped on them.  What about them?

Something really ought to be done about that, too. But the one the mages can solve, at the moment, is how they're treated.

(Please don't mistake that for me wanting the Circles abolished. Again, I just want the Templars to be forced to act like mages are human beings. For that matter, a large number, probably most, don't need correction.)

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Something really ought to be done about that, too. But the one the mages can solve, at the moment, is how they're treated.

(Please don't mistake that for me wanting the Circles abolished. Again, I just want the Templars to be forced to act like mages are human beings. For that matter, a large number, probably most, don't need correction.)

I agree that the Circles need either more oversight or a restructure to stop abuse, but he's proposing almost complete freedom, is he not?  The only mage I've really seen concerned with non mages was Anders at his clinic, and potentially the Warden.  Aside from that... not so much.  They're more concerned with their own problems.


Edit: I suppose there's also Merill, but she's looking out for her own as well (Dalish)

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 26 novembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[Adanu]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Adanu wrote...

The vast majority of Thedas has a choice in how they live their lives. Mages do not.

And this choice is more important than being healthy, relatively safe and alive?  Not needing to worry about a plague, a famine, bandits, wars between nations?  Valuing absolute freedom in Thedas of all places isn't the best of ideas.

Fuggyt wrote...

Yes, you're right!  Because there are peasants and wars and plagues and famines and poverty, that makes legal kidnapping, forced relocation, and breaking up families perfectly legitimate!  Two wrongs do in fact make a right!  Thank you for removing the scales from my eyes! That explains why so many homeless people in our society are volunteering for state prison.

I'm glad you agree that security is sometimes preferable to freedom.

You are never, ever safe all the time, everywhere. This argument has no basis simply due to the chaotic nature of life. There may be a bandit on that road, or a mercenary hired to kill you somewhere... or maybe you just ****** off the wrong guard and they 'inspect' you.

The only way you will ever be completely safe from everything is in a bubble with a life support system in the middle of nowhere, buried under a mountain or something. Trying to make something completely safe has disastrous consequences for most.

The most you can do without destroying free will is police a society. You choose to live in society, you deal with the society. If you don't want to deal with society, then you go live in a forest and hunt your own food and build your own shelter. Been done plenty of times.

[BlueMagitek]

Adanu wrote...

You are never, ever safe all the time, everywhere. This argument has no basis simply due to the chaotic nature of life. There may be a bandit on that road, or a mercenary hired to kill you somewhere... or maybe you just ****** off the wrong guard and they 'inspect' you.

The only way you will ever be completely safe from everything is in a bubble with a life support system in the middle of nowhere, buried under a mountain or something. Trying to make something completely safe has disastrous consequences for most.

The most you can do without destroying free will is police a society. You choose to live in society, you deal with the society. If you don't want to deal with society, then you go live in a forest and hunt your own food and build your own shelter. Been done plenty of times.

Yes, but there are reasonable limitations that we are given to follow.  We aren't allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road, for example.  We aren't allowed to build chemical weapons in our garages.  Mages are more or less ticking time bombs.  We don't know when, or if, they'll explode, but they all have the capacity to.  Because of this, we try to keep them away from others, while trying to provide for them.   That's the purpose of the Circles. 

[rapscallioness]

The whole system is flawed. They even turn Templars in to junkies in order to fight abominations. When the most logical choice to fight that type of magic would be to have other mages fight them.

I think in general if the Circle was more of an actual institute of "higher" learning--with the best magical scholars, and scholars in general. A place that is not a prison, but an opportunity.

A place where you were not dragged off to, but rather had to be accepted into. A place that could help provide some real future opportunities through education; learning to master your skills; understanding the inherent dangers and how to avoid it.

And a good general mundane education, too. Then allow mages to actually be a part of society. Let them get a job. Lol. Be able to provide for their families. Heck, have families.

Make the Circle a prestigious place of learning with tangible future benefits for the mage, their family, the community at large.

You'd have more ppl clamoring to get in, or get their children in, than trying to escape. The kinda place where if you, or your child got accepted into...you'd be bragging about it.

Allow magic to actually "serve" the community.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Adanu wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm glad you agree that security is sometimes preferable to freedom.

You are never, ever safe all the time, everywhere. This argument has no basis simply due to the chaotic nature of life. There may be a bandit on that road, or a mercenary hired to kill you somewhere... or maybe you just ****** off the wrong guard and they 'inspect' you.

The only way you will ever be completely safe from everything is in a bubble with a life support system in the middle of nowhere, buried under a mountain or something. Trying to make something completely safe has disastrous consequences for most.

Are you advocating not making efforts towards saftey because it won't end in perfection? Nothing ever does, least of all in Thedas. Don't argue that the system advocated for is imperfect, argue that it's there's a better alternative, or that it isn't worth the cost, be it material or philosophical.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 novembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[TEWR]

Palidane wrote...

A question to the pro-mages:

Would you be alright with a modified circle system where the Templars and Mages were equal partners, but in most other ways similar to the current one?

That would factor in to my ideal system, but just having that wouldn't make it acceptable for me.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ah, I wasn't under that impression.  And perhaps she should have kept a closer look on their correspondance, given Orsino and Quentin. 
Well, the reason for anullment seems to vary from time to time and place to place.  I think you would agree that in DA:O, anullment was is a fair thing to call for.  The Circle has gone to hell, a lot of mages are dead or abominations or blood mages and the First Enchanter is missing.   The first anullment was called for a single abomination in a tower.  Given the multiple abomination, attempts at rebellion and blood magic, I think the argument for an anullment can be made.

Morrigan goes out of her way to obtain the soul of an Old God.  Is that not the accumulation of power?  She also approves of deals with demons (Desire demon in Honnleathe) and some of her 'pragmatic options' aren't pragmatic at all.

Caladrius is not a magister though, he's just a blood mage.
And yet he calls upon a Pride Demon and ruins the lives of countless mages in a grab for power of the Circle.
Ah, well, I'm not perfect.

Malcolm is good, I agree.  He was also forced into blood magic by the Wardens.  Jowan is also... okay.  And I believe that mission is glitched.

True, though reading through any letter that a mage receives would probably be going too far.
In DA:O, yes. As for Kirkwall, Gaider said that we only see the worst of the Circle, just because that's what we're fighting and it's more interesting. In DA:O, the Circle was almost a total loss.
Morrigan wants the soul because "some things in this world are worth saving" or something of the sort. It isn't about amassing power, it's about Urthemiel. In Honnoleth, the demon offers you nothing. She doesn't really gain anything by it, she's just being kinda stupid.
Caladrius was Tevinter..ian...ish. That is what he was raised under, magister or no.
Yes, Uldred was one mage that went too far. The only thing I'm not sure about was whether it was for power.

Yeah, Jowan tries to do good. It just usually doesn't work well for him.

Modifié par Auintus, 26 novembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[BlueMagitek]

^ And, if we had searched for evidence, we would see that Orsino was at least helping a serial killer blood mage. Which may be grounds for an anullment, given everything the Kirkwall circle has been through over the years.

Morrigan also, coincidentally, gets to hold power over an old god, or a human with the soul of an old god. I'm sure she won't abuse it at all. :/ *it also requires you to trust her in the first place, that it is her reason for doing so *

Caladrius isn't a magister though, he fits your criteria.
Well, you know those Libertarians, always causing trouble for the Circles. :/

[Adanu]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Adanu wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm glad you agree that security is sometimes preferable to freedom.

You are never, ever safe all the time, everywhere. This argument has no basis simply due to the chaotic nature of life. There may be a bandit on that road, or a mercenary hired to kill you somewhere... or maybe you just ****** off the wrong guard and they 'inspect' you.

The only way you will ever be completely safe from everything is in a bubble with a life support system in the middle of nowhere, buried under a mountain or something. Trying to make something completely safe has disastrous consequences for most.

Are you advocating not making efforts towards saftey because it won't end in perfection? Nothing ever does, least of all in Thedas. Don't argue that the system advocated for is imperfect, argue that it's there's a better alternative, or that it isn't worth the cost, be it material or philosophical.

I'm arguing that trying to strangle anyone, mages or non-mages -in terms of freedom and free will- will backfire one day. It happened with the Circles, it happened in any revolution in RL.

It might take centuries, but it will happen.

I'm saying that a moderated solution that doesn't involve effectively enslaving mages is a great first step. First, the current Templars have to be removed from power and their war on mages has to end.

[Auintus]

@BlueMagitek
I wouldn't say helping, though he was preventing his capture. Helping just makes it sound like he approved and participated, when he really just covered it up.

True, but we don't know what she intends to do with it. I think she said something about "preparing him for what's to come." Whatever that means. Fantastically vague.
"Magister" was shorter than spelling out: mages raised under Tevinter law. I'll be less lazy next time.
Only the ones who go too far. You have those on both sides.

Modifié par Auintus, 26 novembre 2012 - 05:25 .

[Auintus]

Adanu wrote...

I'm arguing that trying to strangle anyone, mages or non-mages -in terms of freedom and free will- will backfire one day. It happened with the Circles, it happened in any revolution in RL.

It might take centuries, but it will happen.

I'm saying that a moderated solution that doesn't involve effectively enslaving mages is a great first step. First, the current Templars have to be removed from power and their war on mages has to end.

If mages were forced to come to the Circle, trained, and then allowed back on their own after a successful Harrowing, would you be content?
Phylacteries would still be made and templars would still police the Circle, as well as investigating maleficar and demon-dealers, maybe with mages even helping.

[The Hierophant]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ And, if we had searched for evidence, we would see that Orsino was at least helping a serial killer blood mage. Which may be grounds for an anullment, given everything the Kirkwall circle has been through over the years.

Morrigan also, coincidentally, gets to hold power over an old god, or a human with the soul of an old god. I'm sure she won't abuse it at all. :/ *it also requires you to trust her in the first place, that it is her reason for doing so *

Caladrius isn't a magister though, he fits your criteria.
Well, you know those Libertarians, always causing trouble for the Circles. :/

Don't forget about Lady Harimann, and Gascard Dupuis.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

@BlueMagitek
I wouldn't say helping, though he was preventing his capture. Helping just makes it sound like he approved and participated, when he really just covered it up.

True, but we don't know what she intends to do with it. I think she said something about "preparing him for what's to come." Whatever that means. Fantastically vague.
"Magister" was shorter than spelling out: mages raised under Tevinter law. I'll be less lazy next time.
Only the ones who go too far. You have those on both sides.

Well, he seems to have used his research to become a Harvester, so there definately seems to be some working with going on there.  Or making use of his research, at the very least.

That's true.  But she still has the power, and went out of her way to aquire it.  But I'll drop it.
How convenient, moving the goal posts again.
Yes, but usually when a mage goes to far... well, look at Orsino (even if you side with him).

[Adanu]

Auintus wrote...

Adanu wrote...

I'm arguing that trying to strangle anyone, mages or non-mages -in terms of freedom and free will- will backfire one day. It happened with the Circles, it happened in any revolution in RL.

It might take centuries, but it will happen.

I'm saying that a moderated solution that doesn't involve effectively enslaving mages is a great first step. First, the current Templars have to be removed from power and their war on mages has to end.

If mages were forced to come to the Circle, trained, and then allowed back on their own after a successful Harrowing, would you be content?
Phylacteries would still be made and templars would still police the Circle, as well as investigating maleficar and demon-dealers, maybe with mages even helping.

Some details are missing, such as families and what privileges allowed during their training. The training process itself needs to be able to accomodate new developments... but it is a good basis for a start.

Blood magic, for example, needs to stop being such a stigma and be further researched. There may very well be a way to block blood control we don't know about. The Templars also would have to stop pretending Phylacteries are anything but a blood magic leash. You also need an internal affairs type force that has some accountability and effectiveness. Lambert was an **** and it reflected in how extreme Templars had gotten. I'm not sold that a Phylactery is a good idea, but it might be a necessary evil... if used right, and not just willy nilly.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, he seems to have used his research to become a Harvester, so there definately seems to be some working with going on there.  Or making use of his research, at the very least.

That's true.  But she still has the power, and went out of her way to aquire it.  But I'll drop it.
How convenient, moving the goal posts again.
Yes, but usually when a mage goes to far... well, look at Orsino (even if you side with him).

I was actually surprised that he would read far enough into it to be able to recall it from memory. Photographic memory, or unhealthy interest?

Sometimes you want something and something else comes with it...Or she's a power-hungry, murderous lunatic who killed my warden the moment after he walked through the Eluvian, but I don't like to think that.
That was always my intention. I'm not moving anything. Damn laziness and *grumbles incoherently*
True. "With great power..." and all that. When a templar goes too far, they ruin the life of a mage or two. When a mage goes to far, a city disappears(Unless a Hawke is around). Which is why they must be trained.

[Auintus]

Adanu wrote...

Some details are missing, such as families and what privileges allowed during their training. The training process itself needs to be able to accomodate new developments... but it is a good basis for a start.

Blood magic, for example, needs to stop being such a stigma and be further researched. There may very well be a way to block blood control we don't know about. The Templars also would have to stop pretending Phylacteries are anything but a blood magic leash. You also need an internal affairs type force that has some accountability and effectiveness. Lambert was an **** and it reflected in how extreme Templars had gotten. I'm not sold that a Phylactery is a good idea, but it might be a necessary evil... if used right, and not just willy nilly.

Yes, it would be something of a school. Mages would have to attend, but could be visited, and would be allowed monitored trips outside. The training would gear primarily towards control and recognizing and thwarting demonic influences. The rest would be up to the individual mage.
Blood magic would be researched, but those mages would have to remain in the Circle for their research. In addition, any mages who wanted to remain in the Circle could do so.
Phylacteries would be used to hunt mages who were abusing their powers.
A mage/templar council of sorts, people with first-hand experience, would be an overseeing group over the affairs of the Circle and the mage population.
Did I miss anything important?

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

I was actually surprised that he would read far enough into it to be able to recall it from memory. Photographic memory, or unhealthy interest?

Sometimes you want something and something else comes with it...Or she's a power-hungry, murderous lunatic who killed my warden the moment after he walked through the Eluvian, but I don't like to think that.
That was always my intention. I'm not moving anything. Damn laziness and *grumbles incoherently*
True. "With great power..." and all that. When a templar goes too far, they ruin the life of a mage or two. When a mage goes to far, a city disappears(Unless a Hawke is around). Which is why they must be trained.

Given the mages in DA 2, probably unhealthy interest.  Besides, you can't trust most elf mages.  From Keeper to Circle mage, they're all short and pointy eared and elfy, then they curse their enemies and a bunch of unrelated people for no good reason. <_<

Ah, but not every warden has the same relationship with her.  Raising the child alongside her is only available to certain wardens, not all of them.   And she is murderous, she killed her own mother and advocates killing, or letting die, near everyone you meet, regardless of how pragmatic it might be. 
You move goalposts more than those temporary refs, I purposefly avoided magisters.
Yes, and in most cases, stay in the Circle, or in close contact with the Circle that isn't hiding their intention, otherwise you have zombie dead wives walking around.

[Fredward]

Palidane wrote...

A question to the pro-mages:

Would you be alright with a modified circle system where the Templars and Mages were equal partners, but in most other ways similar to the current one?

My ideal system would be where phylacteries are kept on all mages just in case they go bat**** and the Circle, as someone else has mentioned, as a school. Though without the templars. Mages can teach mages and stop them if need be. Also in my ideal situation the templars would all die in hellfire and the hatemongering Chantry would be a purely religious organization and not the pseudo religious/military/political thing it is now.

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

This thread is an almost classic
example of what psychologists of learning call, "selective attention"
or "the tendency to attune to data which conforms to your beliefs, and
to dismiss, devalue or ignore data that would overturn them."

So let me see if I have grasped the arguments presented thus far:

"Mages need freedom."
"Mages are dangerous to have freedom."
"They are only dangerous because they don't have freedom."
"If they were not dangerous, they could have freedom."
"Nuh-hah."
"Uh-hah."
"You stink!"
"No, you stink!"

And on, and on, and on and on...

Just
for interest, has anyone, anywhere, anyhow ever won an internet debate?
I mean, do we take a poll? Cut cards? Flip a coin? Agree to meet in a
neutral city and have a dance off or something?

To keep these
comments on topic; my personal view - if I was an average person in
Thedas, I would consider the mages to be too dangerous to let wander
freely, without Templar supervision.

If I was a mage in Thedas, I
would escape the circles as soon as possible and resist any restriction
of my freedom with every skill at my disposal. When they came to get
me, they had better bring a whole army. They can have my staff when they
pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

You see, it all depends upon your point of view...

HEY! We learned about this. And while it is true in most/all cases I have stated that this all breaks down to different moral views and since morality is relative it makes conflict inevtiable. It also makes the argument impossible to "win" since you can't really say that one person's sense of morality is superior to another's. At least not after you've gotten to post-conventional morality.

As to why I'm still arguing this utterly roundabout ride... it's been a long vacation and I'm bored. XD

[TobiTobsen]

Fuggyt wrote...

Freedom is indivisible.  You either have it or you don't.  It's also non-negotiable.  Never settle for anything less.

Typhoid Mary would have loved some pro-mage people as lawyers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Should I allow myself to suffer because to resist would cause conflict?

Yes?
After all, it is morally right to sacrifice your own well-bing for others.

Sacrifice my own freedom, submit myself to a prison where treatment can range from life-threatening to mildly pleasant on the off chance that I would be possessed?
That's expecting a bit too much.

And here I though you were a person that values morals and the well-being of others above all else...