General User wrote...
I'm sure there will be both "pro-mage" and "pro-Templar" options.
With a middle path available for more moderate and reasonable player characters. "Pro-Chantry" would be the obvious candidate for that.
BlueMagitek wrote...
General User wrote...
I'm sure there will be both "pro-mage" and "pro-Templar" options.
With a middle path available for more moderate and reasonable player characters. "Pro-Chantry" would be the obvious candidate for that.
Oh lord, a good portion of the DA people on BSN might explode.
I love it. xD
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Auintus wrote...
He is as blank a slate as your average human being. Anyone can be
good or evil. Mages allow them to take it, both sides, to greater
degrees than the average individual.
No, not a brainwashed robot, but a decent human being who has been taught to treat his magic as a gift with which to help others, rather than a curse that will destroy the world should he set foot outside the Circle.
"Perfection" is impossible to attain. The Circle is certainly not perfect. Sometimes good enough is good enough.
And sometimes it isn't.
And when the mage can take to the other side to redicolous extreemes (abomination, magisters, blight) and it more tempted to go to the other side, it damn well isn't.
The Circle is there to keep the mages contained. It places no value on well-being.
Cole was left to rot in a cell with a demon as his only company as
he died. The templars who found him covered up the whole thing. Mages
are treated as dangerous animals to be unleashed whenever the world
can't solve their own problems. That is not acceptable.
Yes it does. Otherwise they would have no rights and would be killed immediately.
As it is they have almost as much rights as any mundane and live in far beter conditions to boot.
As much you use the "treated as animals" catchphrase it is proven wrong again and again.
You imply that 100 free mages would result in the deaths of 100000 mundanes. That is inaccurate. Abominations and maleficar are not so numerous as you claim.
10000 or 100000...doesn't matter. It's still a far bigger number than the number of mages. and yes, a powerfull abomination can destroy and entire town.
Comparitively few mages go maleficar. We only see the more interesting side because otherwise it'd be boring.
And following your logic templar abuse is rare. We only see a lot of it because otherwise it would be boring.
Why do you think they are rare?...Auintus wrote...
You imply that 100 free mages would result in the deaths of 100000 mundanes. That is inaccurate. Abominations and maleficar are not so numerous as you claim.
10000 or 100000...doesn't matter. It's still a far bigger number than the number of mages. and yes, a powerfull abomination can destroy and entire town.
And abominations must be dealt with. The codex says outright that they are rare.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why do you think they are rare?...Auintus wrote...
You imply that 100 free mages would result in the deaths of 100000 mundanes. That is inaccurate. Abominations and maleficar are not so numerous as you claim.
10000 or 100000...doesn't matter. It's still a far bigger number than the number of mages. and yes, a powerfull abomination can destroy and entire town.
And abominations must be dealt with. The codex says outright that they are rare.
BlueMagitek wrote...
^ No, not really. Just walk into any of the 'anti Chantry' (or religion) topics, and you see people getting angry that Hawke said his mother was with the Maker now. :/
He wasn't. But Leandra was, so the diplomatic thing to say there involved the Maker.LobselVith8 wrote...
BlueMagitek wrote...
^ No, not really. Just walk into any of the 'anti Chantry' (or religion) topics, and you see people getting angry that Hawke said his mother was with the Maker now. :/
People were irritated that the writers were dictating who the player's protagonist was, rather than giving them the choice to determine who Hawke is. If The Warden could be an atheist, I don't see why Hawke was required to be religiously Andrastian.
LobselVith8 wrote...
People were irritated that the writers were dictating who the player's protagonist was, rather than giving them the choice to determine who Hawke is. If The Warden could be an atheist, I don't see why Hawke was required to be religiously Andrastian.
That's not what I meant. WHY do you think they are rare, as in: What do you think the reason for their rarity is?Auintus wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why do you think they are rare?...Auintus wrote...
You imply that 100 free mages would result in the deaths of 100000 mundanes. That is inaccurate. Abominations and maleficar are not so numerous as you claim.
10000 or 100000...doesn't matter. It's still a far bigger number than the number of mages. and yes, a powerfull abomination can destroy and entire town.
And abominations must be dealt with. The codex says outright that they are rare.
Gameplay and story segragation, my friend.
Also, "Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon." from Codex Entry: Abomination. So, yeah.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That's not what I meant. WHY do you think they are rare, as in: What do you think the reason for their rarity is?
So you agree that the strictness of the Circle are what keeps the Abomination ratio low?Auintus wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That's not what I meant. WHY do you think they are rare, as in: What do you think the reason for their rarity is?
Ah, so sorry.
Circle training. The Harrowing was designed for that expressed purpose. Also the whole "mutilated body turned into an instrument of destruction" bit. That doesn't sound like fun.
CaptainBlackGold wrote...
Just for interest, has anyone, anywhere, anyhow ever won an internet debate? I mean, do we take a poll? Cut cards? Flip a coin? Agree to meet in a neutral city and have a dance off or something?
To keep these comments on topic; my personal view - if I was an average person in Thedas, I would consider the mages to be too dangerous to let wander freely, without Templar supervision.
If I was a mage in Thedas, I would escape the circles as soon as possible and resist any restriction of my freedom with every skill at my disposal. When they came to get me, they had better bring a whole army. They can have my staff when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
You see, it all depends upon your point of view...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So you agree that the strictness of the Circle are what keeps the Abomination ratio low?
You of course realize that all the weak willed mages, and the ones being deemed too big a risk by the Circle, are put down. As in, all those that would stand the greatest risk of becomming an Abomination, are eliminated, by the Circle. If not for this policy, you can be sure the ratio of Abominations would skyrocket in a single generation.Auintus wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So you agree that the strictness of the Circle are what keeps the Abomination ratio low?
No. I'm saying the training of the Circle keeps the ratio low. The codex says that the Circle screens for that, I see no reason why a mage can't walk free afterwards.
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:28 .
BlueMagitek wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
People were irritated that the writers were dictating who the player's protagonist was, rather than giving them the choice to determine who Hawke is. If The Warden could be an atheist, I don't see why Hawke was required to be religiously Andrastian.
Not really. His mother was an Andrastian, and Hawke was never allowed as much freedom as expression as a Warden, so being insensitive to that at the time would be both out of Hawke's character and a bit ridiculous, to be honest.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You of course realize that all the weak willed mages, and the ones being deemed too big a risk by the Circle, are put down. As in, all those that would stand the greatest risk of becomming an Abomination, are eliminated, by the Circle. If not for this policy, you can be sure the ratio of Abominations would skyrocket in a single generation.
Fuggyt wrote...
CaptainBlackGold wrote...
Just for interest, has anyone, anywhere, anyhow ever won an internet debate? I mean, do we take a poll? Cut cards? Flip a coin? Agree to meet in a neutral city and have a dance off or something?
To keep these comments on topic; my personal view - if I was an average person in Thedas, I would consider the mages to be too dangerous to let wander freely, without Templar supervision.
If I was a mage in Thedas, I would escape the circles as soon as possible and resist any restriction of my freedom with every skill at my disposal. When they came to get me, they had better bring a whole army. They can have my staff when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
You see, it all depends upon your point of view...
I'm down with a dance off. Polkas to the death at dawn!
To me, this post summarizes why the Circles will ultimately never work. Few people will willingly submit. Circles will always provoke rebellion from their unwilling inmates "with every skill at [their] disposal," including blood magic. This in turn will provoke the Chantry to become ever more vigilant, hence ever more unyielding. How many of you pro-Templar types would happily sign up for life imprisonment, no matter how cushy, just because a majority of people voted to incarcerate you for any pretext whatsover? Me? I'd fight.
Not just to let free. The weak are too drangerous to even let live. The ones who do pass, are still a risk, and they are kept in one place, to easier control the inherent risks of letting them live. If the "graduated" mages were allowed to walk the world freely, merely having their phylacteries would not be enough. The Templars would be unable to respond to an emergency in time. That is the crux f the matter of letting the harrowed mages out.Auintus wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You of course realize that all the weak willed mages, and the ones being deemed too big a risk by the Circle, are put down. As in, all those that would stand the greatest risk of becomming an Abomination, are eliminated, by the Circle. If not for this policy, you can be sure the ratio of Abominations would skyrocket in a single generation.
Yes, I understand this. Weak or untrained mages are too great a risk to let free. The Circle should remain as an institute of training and research. Mages who pass their Harrowing could go free. The templars would still have their phyacteries, just in case, but it's better than being stuck in a tower for the duration of your lifetime.
Fuggyt wrote...
I'm down with a dance off. Polkas to the death at dawn!
To me, this post summarizes why the Circles will ultimately never work. Few people will willingly submit. Circles will always provoke rebellion from their unwilling inmates "with every skill at [their] disposal," including blood magic. This in turn will provoke the Chantry to become ever more vigilant, hence ever more unyielding. How many of you pro-Templar types would happily sign up for life imprisonment, no matter how cushy, just because a majority of people voted to incarcerate you for any pretext whatsover? Me? I'd fight.
The problem with all the analogies are that they don't take into account that mages are prone to possession by chaotic, carnivourous spirits unwillingly or willingly.Elsewhere in this thread, one poster commented that we don't allow individuals to possess poison gas on the ground that individuals should no control weapons of mass destruction. Somebody else pointed out how the more intelligent among us (a debatable assumption, but let's run with it) end up controlling society anyway. Both good points! I have a simple solution. Let's give children IQ tests at about age 8 and anybody in the top quintile gets locked away, to prevent them from taking over from the less gifted, the more mundane, as it were. All chemistry textbooks should be burned or at least locked away. Those chemists can use their brainpower to make Ricin, you know.
The individual is not a hostage to society except in the totalitarian regimes folks like Dave and Lotion seem to prefer. Of course, the fearful, jealous, and insecure always favor protection from their betters. As Shakespeare's Caesar put it, "Such men as he be never at heart's ease whilst they behold a greater than themselves, and therefore are they very dangerous." Don't fret, though, Dave and Lotion, it's nothing impersonal.
Besides, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the mages are no real threat to dominate Thedas. They are neither numerous or individually powerful enough to do so. If they were either, the Circles would never have been able to corral most if not all of them nor could the Tevinter Imperium ever have fallen.
Modifié par The Hierophant, 27 novembre 2012 - 04:25 .
Legatus Arianus wrote...
I hope we will see more reasonable people like Lotion Soronnar, BlueMagitek and Dave of Canada in this thread.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 novembre 2012 - 05:29 .
MisterJB wrote...
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the whole "permanent incarceration based on birth" thing but yeah. xp
Fate worse than death? There are billions of people in our real world who would kill their own mothers to live in those conditions.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
I
threw up a little in my mouth right then. "Yes lets ignore gross
injustice and barbarism now because, hey maybe in ANOTHER millenium it
might mature into something beautiful! "
Like a freakish hate catepillar turning into a beautiful love butterfly. Cocoon stage give or take two thousand years. XD
Then throw up, because that's how it is.
Things take time. And some thing require certain prequisites - prequisites that simply aren't there.
You cannot simply change things by force without taking those things into acount.
silentassassin264 wrote...
The specifics of the Doctrine is what the Chantry teaches presently. They did not have mage reverend fathers and they did not teach Andraste was a dragon for starters. They would have been heretics. There is not wiggle room for heresy. Either you believe the same or you don't. I am not going to sit here and argue with you ignoring the meaning of a word because it doesn't fit your story.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Statiscial outlier.
You have to prove that the Kirkwall Circle is the norm and that everything you think was going on like you think was going in that Circle, did in fact go on exactly as you imagine it and as frequent as you imagine it.
See first response to other guy.
Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To get what many mage supportesrs on the thread want you need a miracle.
To get substantially better oversight you need more advancements in communication, travel and oversight technology and also a huge increase of resources - everything else is minimal improvement at best.
They have the communication technology, and the Circles all have it. If the First Enchanter could simply call the Seekers whenever they were needed, and the Seekers send someone on a reasonably fast ship, that would still be better than what the Circles have now. Or, if they can make more seeing stones, the first Enchanter could simply call a regional branch, and they get there even faster.
Mages walking around free with happy populace?
Never gonna happen. Cannot happen in any believable world.
By their nature mages require to be segregated.
I know that mages are dangerous. You don't need to tell me that. Still, there are believable worlds where mages can walk free, mostly by either making magic more common, or just dropping that "abomination" thing, which Bioware probably invented just so that the Circles are necessary. (For that matter, how likely are mages to turn after the Harrowing, unless they turn to demonology? I adknowledge that it's unsafe to risk it, but how unsafe are we talking?)
Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 novembre 2012 - 08:07 .
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