Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Okay. Now argue against the thing where Meredith is able to tranq mages and get away with it.
Auintus wrote...
Yes, I understand this. Weak or untrained mages are too great a risk to let free. The Circle should remain as an institute of training and research. Mages who pass their Harrowing could go free. The templars would still have their phyacteries, just in case, but it's better than being stuck in a tower for the duration of your lifetime.
Adanu wrote...
Pro Templars have the 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' mentality and take it to an extreme.
Fuggyt wrote...
To me, this post summarizes why the Circles will ultimately never work. Few people will willingly submit. Circles will always provoke rebellion from their unwilling inmates "with every skill at [their] disposal," including blood magic. This in turn will provoke the Chantry to become ever more vigilant, hence ever more unyielding. How many of you pro-Templar types would happily sign up for life imprisonment, no matter how cushy, just because a majority of people voted to incarcerate you for any pretext whatsover? Me? I'd fight.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Auintus wrote...
Yes, I understand this. Weak or untrained mages are too great a risk to let free. The Circle should remain as an institute of training and research. Mages who pass their Harrowing could go free. The templars would still have their phyacteries, just in case, but it's better than being stuck in a tower for the duration of your lifetime.
For the last time - the Harrowing means SQUAT.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Prisons will always provoke rebellions from inmates.
People will always try to break quarantine.
Even people with mental disorders occasionaly try to escape mental wards.
It's obvious then - these system can never work, so let's abolish all of them! LET EVERYONE WALK FREE! :innocent:
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Lotion, not in this lifetime or the next would he be a moderate. He doesn't even think trying to work out the kinks in the faulty system is something that should be done. He'd rather leave the system as flawed as it is simply because worse systems exist.
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then throw up, because that's how it is.
Things take time. And some thing require certain prequisites - prequisites that simply aren't there.
You cannot simply change things by force without taking those things into acount.
And who gets to decide when that time is, exactly? Who is to say that time isn't now proven by the fact that the mages have had enough and are rising up? Very few revolutions are bloodless and the mage revolution was NEVER going to be. The templars are all addicted to lyrium, their supply of lyrium depends on them guarding mages, if the mages have freedom there's a bunch of lyrium addled templars with no job the templars want the mages coralled for a variety of reasons none of them altruistic.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then throw up, because that's how it is.
Things take time. And some thing require certain prequisites - prequisites that simply aren't there.
You cannot simply change things by force without taking those things into acount.
And who gets to decide when that time is, exactly? Who is to say that time isn't now proven by the fact that the mages have had enough and are rising up? Very few revolutions are bloodless and the mage revolution was NEVER going to be. The templars are all addicted to lyrium, their supply of lyrium depends on them guarding mages, if the mages have freedom there's a bunch of lyrium addled templars with no job the templars want the mages coralled for a variety of reasons none of them altruistic.
No one. And everyone.
Mages rising up is not proof of anything other then them rising up....and even that barely happened despite all the warmongering and pressure from both sides.
Frankly, mages are already getting excellent treatment given the nature of their problem and the circumstances in TheDas. FAR better than they would have ever gotten if they lived in our middle ages.
Alas, a lot of people ascribe to the "only the best is good enough" or "only when I get everything is it enough" mentality.
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No one. And everyone.
Mages rising up is not proof of anything other then them rising up....and even that barely happened despite all the warmongering and pressure from both sides.
Frankly, mages are already getting excellent treatment given the nature of their problem and the circumstances in TheDas. FAR better than they would have ever gotten if they lived in our middle ages.
Alas, a lot of people ascribe to the "only the best is good enough" or "only when I get everything is it enough" mentality.
Nope, no vague evasive arguments here.
The "nature of their problem" being the fact that they exist? And stop trying to compare Thedas to the real world. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Or yah know, a fictional world to a real one.
And mages aren't asking for the best they're asking for the rights everyone else has. The best would be "HEY WE HAVE MAGIC WE SHOULD RULE." Which, aside from a few crazies, ain't happening with the Circle uprising.
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Prisons will always provoke rebellions from inmates.
People will always try to break quarantine.
Even people with mental disorders occasionaly try to escape mental wards.
It's obvious then - these system can never work, so let's abolish all of them! LET EVERYONE WALK FREE! :innocent:
Prisons hold people who have done something wrong and have proven themselves a danger to their community. People in quarantine have an infectious disease that is potentially very dangerous. People in mental institutions are there for a reason, they are irrational and cannot be held responsible for their actions. None of these = the circles.
Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 novembre 2012 - 09:11 .
Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
TobiTobsen wrote...
The game also lets abominations pop out of the ground and mercenaries rain from the sky, while we slaughter pride demons by the dozens.
If we would take everything at face value what the game shows us, then we all could just stop discussing the lore or fluff, since that's all been undermined a long time ago.
Okay. Now argue against the thing where Meredith is able to tranq mages and get away with it.
If my impression of the game is correct, the themes of the two messed up factions eventually going to all out war is the underlying pattern of the framed story. And when Cass hears the story, she filters out all the obvious stuff you described, and said that she believes most of the bits that contribute to the underlying theme, because she doesn't think Varric could make this up. If you don't accept her judgement, then your argument is doomed anyway.
silentassassin264 wrote...
No,TobiTobsen wrote...
Seems like you're simply interpreting the codex in a way that supports your own position. Convenient, isn't it?
I an interpreting it with reading comprehension. That codex is pretty much saying in real world terms that "the Holocaust was the party that shall not be named was ethnic cleansing as well as just plain undesirables cleansing. BUT, the European Union won the Nobel Peace prize for preserving the unity and preventing something like that from happening again." The fact is the Holocaust was X. The opinion is the EU did Y. Europe is not over yet. We can't say with any certainty what the European Union has accomplished because we can't look in retrospect. The EU could fail the whole Greece issue and result in WW3 for all we know. The same with this. We know what the Inquisition did but at the time the codex was written, how the Seekers kept the templars in place was just an opinion because everything was intact and you couldn't see the end. They might have done a good job in any abuse that they encountered like the EU with Yugoslavia (or rather the US but whatever) but Meredith's abuses ultimately were unchecked and caused the collapse of the system like Greece/Spain could for the EU. If you cannot see that then that is your own reading comprehension problem.
Modifié par TobiTobsen, 27 novembre 2012 - 09:36 .
Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Says who? Do the templars do it (btw I still haven't found the codex entry where it says the Harrowing predates the Circles, a link would be nice) for ****s and giggles then? Yah know the wiki says the Harrowing is only enacted on mages who are "promising" the rest get executed or made Tranquil. This means that quite before you might fall in the Harrowing a lot of what the templars consider undesirables are weeded out. The Harrowing isn't even the only test it's just the culmination of it. So no, I really do think the Harrowing means more than "SQUAT."
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not just to let free. The weak are too drangerous to even let live. The ones who do pass, are still a risk, and they are kept in one place, to easier control the inherent risks of letting them live. If the "graduated" mages were allowed to walk the world freely, merely having their phylacteries would not be enough. The Templars would be unable to respond to an emergency in time. That is the crux f the matter of letting the harrowed mages out.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Auintus wrote...
Yes, I understand this. Weak or untrained mages are too great a risk to let free. The Circle should remain as an institute of training and research. Mages who pass their Harrowing could go free. The templars would still have their phyacteries, just in case, but it's better than being stuck in a tower for the duration of your lifetime.
For the last time - the Harrowing means SQUAT.
Modifié par Auintus, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:41 .
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Auintus wrote...
If good enough isn't enough, then one side or the other will have to give, completely. Given that templars have difficulty putting down a few mages, imagine when the lot of them rise up together. Good luck, my friend.
Why would they be more tempted to go to extremes? The few Circle mages that have been freed have been quite good for the most part.
And the side to give will have to be mages. 1000 to 1, the entire world against them - and for a good reason.
And they have powers that let them do stuff and get away with it - of course they are more tempted! They have more opportunities and more ways to be tempted.
Yes, because being left to starve to death in a cell is so much better than getting it over with.
They can't even leave the tower without permission. Better conditions than some, worse than others.
You mage supporters always use the same fallacy over and over again.
Mage X was abused. Therefore all mages are abused. You used isolated incident as some kind of proof or "being treated like an animals".
And yet they aren't. We see again and again that mages are treated fairly. It's always the rebellious bunch that aways wants more that creates trouble.
Well, two can play that game. Every mage is like Uldred. Therefore all must die.
You're right. They're treated like the krogan. Not people, not equals.
They are treated like poeple, but not as equals. They cannot be, because they are not.
Youre Political Correctness has no place in a fictional world that doesn't operate the same way as ours.
And abominations must be dealt with. The codex says outright that they are rare.
Doesnt' look like that rare to me.
And the rarity is taken into acount. If they weren't rare, then TheDas would bein real trouble.
And I'm arguing that mages should never be left free and must never be left free.
Because letting free is stupid and naive and won't work.
Modifié par Auintus, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:00 .
That minority is still capable of untold destruction, and if the mages were allowed to walk around freely, that minority would be even bigger. How many mages have the Circle prevented from doing something bad? We can't possibly know for certain, but we can be certain that it has prevented such actions.Auintus wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not just to let free. The weak are too drangerous to even let live. The ones who do pass, are still a risk, and they are kept in one place, to easier control the inherent risks of letting them live. If the "graduated" mages were allowed to walk the world freely, merely having their phylacteries would not be enough. The Templars would be unable to respond to an emergency in time. That is the crux f the matter of letting the harrowed mages out.
It's like saying that because anyone could commit a crime we should lock them all up so that we don't need police. Jowan was going to be made tranquil over the hunch that he was dabbling in blood. They are quite good at weeding out risk factors. Yes, some Harrowed mages have done terrible things, but they are a minority.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To get what many mage supportesrs on the thread want you need a miracle.
To get substantially better oversight you need more advancements in communication, travel and oversight technology and also a huge increase of resources - everything else is minimal improvement at best.
They have the communication technology, and the Circles all have it. If the First Enchanter could simply call the Seekers whenever they were needed, and the Seekers send someone on a reasonably fast ship, that would still be better than what the Circles have now. Or, if they can make more seeing stones, the first Enchanter could simply call a regional branch, and they get there even faster.
That is ONLY for communication between circles. Waht abotu vilalges, towns, cities, etc?
Just deploy X everywhere sounds good IF you completley ignore all the associated costs and problems.
Like "let's use fiber-optic cable everywhere".
Also, proof that Seekers aren't called in?
Mages walking around free with happy populace?
Never gonna happen. Cannot happen in any believable world.
By their nature mages require to be segregated.
I know that mages are dangerous. You don't need to tell me that. Still, there are believable worlds where mages can walk free, mostly by either making magic more common, or just dropping that "abomination" thing, which Bioware probably invented just so that the Circles are necessary. (For that matter, how likely are mages to turn after the Harrowing, unless they turn to demonology? I adknowledge that it's unsafe to risk it, but how unsafe are we talking?)
Apprently plenty unsafe. I already told you that humans are very fragile creatures, so I'd say a lot of unsafe.
Even wihout abominations mages are still dangerous.
And those setting you speak off - they are either unbelievable or have mages at the top of he foodchain.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 novembre 2012 - 06:35 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That minority is still capable of untold destruction, and if the mages were allowed to walk around freely, that minority would be even bigger. How many mages have the Circle prevented from doing something bad? We can't possibly know for certain, but we can be certain that it has prevented such actions.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Okay. Now argue against the thing where Meredith is able to tranq mages and get away with it.
Actually no.
You should pay attention.
The discussion you quoted wasn't discussing that, but the old inquisition and cherrypicking lore bits whil ignoring others.
Tiger Ace 32 wrote...
Is it a huge problem to have mages live freely in a city? To counteract this there can always be a templar patrol that checks on them and the neighborhood every day. Maybe force mages to live in cities, so its easier to keep track of them. If you give mages a life to live then they'll have an even bigger motive to keep that life, and protect others including their family. As long as they've passed their harrowing. Then not allowing mages any political power in leadership positions unless its voting.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yes. The nature of their problem is that they are mages.
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