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So... Will we be forced to be pro templar?


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#801
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Deploy more templars in the area if there are more mages. You could always have rotating watches of templars in areas where mages live so they can quickly respond of they have to. If they ever need to protect mages themselves its their duty to do so as well.


Another argument for the Circle is that its easier to protect the mages themselves if they're not out among the population. A lot of these population are leery of mages, and only part of that is due to the horror stories that the Chantry tells.

#802
Harle Cerulean

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Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

Deploy more templars in the area if there are more mages. You could always have rotating watches of templars in areas where mages live so they can quickly respond of they have to. If they ever need to protect mages themselves its their duty to do so as well.


Sure, that works as a mental exercise, but the reality is, there aren't enough Templars for that.  If mages can live wherever they want, they're not going to group up neatly so that they can be easily watched, they're going to spread out, requiring more manpower to have a sufficient force nearby to handle things in the even of everything going to hell.  You also run into the communication problem more, the more spread out they are.  Things would be entirely up to the judgement of the local division, headed by someone comparatively low-ranking, because there is no quick communication, no ability to apprise higher-ups of the situation and get orders.  Not in anything resembling a decent length of time.

#803
EmperorSahlertz

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Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That minority is still capable of untold destruction, and if the mages were allowed to walk around freely, that minority would be even bigger. How many mages have the Circle prevented from doing something bad? We can't possibly know for certain, but we can be certain that it has prevented such actions.


"You cut away pure flesh with the corrupt." What of the good that free mages could do? Note that most abominations are born from mages without Circle training. Put more individuals who know how to resist demons out to help and make apostates less fearful of coming to the Circle, since they won't be permanently throwing away their freedom.
And the minority wouldn't be that much bigger, as the only mages let out would be those who proved that they can resist demons. Mages stand a halfway decent chance against an abomination. So an abomination is born in a town, and half a dozen other mages are there to defend it.

Most of the good a mage can do, can still be done within the Circle. Most of the evil a mage can do, can't be done within the Circle.
A mage is never 100% resistant to demons, and a mage fighting an Abomination is extremely risky, since if the Abomination wins, it may create another Abomination. That is also partly the reason the Templars prefer not to involve the mages when it comes to policing magic.

#804
Inquisitor Arc

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Harle Cerulean wrote...

Sure, that works as a mental exercise, but the reality is, there aren't enough Templars for that.  If mages can live wherever they want, they're not going to group up neatly so that they can be easily watched, they're going to spread out, requiring more manpower to have a sufficient force nearby to handle things in the even of everything going to hell.  You also run into the communication problem more, the more spread out they are.  Things would be entirely up to the judgement of the local division, headed by someone comparatively low-ranking, because there is no quick communication, no ability to apprise higher-ups of the situation and get orders.  Not in anything resembling a decent length of time.


If the templars don't have enough manpower then they can incorporate the city guard if they have to when they need to respond. They can even call on any fellow mages living in the area. A templar lieutenent or corporal does not need orders to kill an abomination. By then it should be obvious you dont need confirmation from higher ups for the desicion to neutralize a clear threat. The only problem the templars will have is getting reinforcements there in time, and that entirely depends on the proximety of other platoons of templars.

The only time a lower ranking templar should need orders from higher ups is if they suspect one of their charges of practicing something like blood magic. Unless there is an immediate visible danger of collateral damage they should have to wait for proper clearance. Since such acusations should not be taken lightly.

Modifié par Tiger Ace 32, 27 novembre 2012 - 08:35 .


#805
silentassassin264

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That minority is still capable of untold destruction, and if the mages were allowed to walk around freely, that minority would be even bigger. How many mages have the Circle prevented from doing something bad? We can't possibly know for certain, but we can be certain that it has prevented such actions.

Everyone in Thedas is capable of untold destruction.

"Demonic spirits teach more than blood magic. Reavers terrorize their enemies, feast upon the souls of their slain opponents to heal their own flesh, and can unleash a blood frenzy that makes them more powerful as they come nearer to their own deaths."

"A true reaver has tasted the ritually prepared blood of a dragon. It is more than a state of mind. These fearsome warriors revel in death, regaining energy from the suffering of their foes."

ANYONE in Thedas can either ask demons for magic or drain a dragonling/wyvern (Kolgrim says Wyvern even though MoTA might have retconned that).  Reavers can create psychic death fields and rip peoples lifeforce directly out of their bodies.  They are well nigh impossible to kill because they get disproportiantely stronger the more you injure them and even get supernatural speed.  To top it off, since Reaver's magic is not based on mana and lyrium, Templar anti-magics have minimal effect against it.  So why aren't all the people of Thedas confined in cities lest they run run into a drake or dragonlings in the wild and drink of their blood.  Or perhaps run across a place where the veil is thin so even a mundane could ask a demon for magic?  

#806
Fredward

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I wanna let everyone do a lil exercise. Name 5 mages that did horrible, terrible things that weren't motivated by trying to overthrow the Circle/Templars. GO!

#807
silentassassin264

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1. Caladrius
2. Hadriana
3. Denarius
4. Velanna
5. Danzig

Yes I cheated and used Magisters.  And I am aware this doesn't help my position. 

Modifié par silentassassin264, 27 novembre 2012 - 08:44 .


#808
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I wanna let everyone do a lil exercise. Name 5 mages that did horrible, terrible things that weren't motivated by trying to overthrow the Circle/Templars. GO!


Caladrius, Quentin, the Baroness, arguably Marethari, though that was more stupid than terrible. But I think I've covered them.

#809
Larathia

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Wow. This is an ...interesting thread! Lemme just throw this argument in here:

The Circle approach is, at its heart, reasonable. Its failure, however, was inevitable.

Mages are born with power that nonmages can not match. This is just fact.
As a direct result of this state of birth, mages are also at greater risk of Going Darkside - turning to blood magic or turning into abominations. This is also fact; partly because of the way demons work, partly because that's also the way people work. (see: all of human history with regard to the accrual of power.)

The Circle is, at its core, *not a bad idea* - you take someone who can be tempted to go darkside and you remove the temptations, as much as you can. You give them food, shelter, safety, peace. As much as you can. And you set people to guard them so that people can't put them in fear, which is itself a temptation to reach for power. And you say "here is the line" - blood magic usually being the line - and let them be.

Origins shows that this mostly did, in fact, *work*. Most mages, given safety and peace, and Irving's willingness to let mages leave the Tower on this or that mission if they could act like responsible adults, resulted in peace. It's reasonable, as well, to say that in Ferelden at least, the Circles were willing to overlook those mages who preferred to live free, provided they didn't draw attention to themselves. (See: all the mages' collective quests - essentially, you policing blood mages before the templars have to get called in, and keeping templars from going too far, and so on.) DA2 also adds to this in Legacy, and Bethany's story - basically if your freedom meant THAT much to you (which to some people it does, much more than not being hungry or having safety) then all you needed was to keep yer d@mnfool head down and you were fine.

I'm just going to note here that Anders was definitely NOT a mage I'd have considered safe to leave wandering around. He wasn't the threat the templar hunting him claimed, at least not back then, but he totally failed at 'low key' and a lot of his commentary suggests he felt, even then, that mages were naturally superior to everybody else by dint of having magic. ("I'll show you why mages are feared!")

The templars in Kirkwall are no more generally representative than the mages in Kirkwall of how the Circles usually work - the mages are being affected by Kirkwall itself, the templars are being affected both by the mages' uncharacteristic behavior and Meredith going wonkers from the lyrium idol; the war begins there because everything that CAN go wrong with the Circle system, DOES go wrong - the templars fear the mages and so more or less imprison them. The mages, hated and feared by the templars, start turning darkside just to survive or find a way out, and the mages in turning darkside justify and enhance the templars' fears, thus hello spiral that ends in massive boom.

The circle system could only exist as long as the mages were willing to accept its existence. They're not rabbits. They have genuine power. They refrained - in most cases - from using that power for the same reason the circles exist at all; mages in most cases don't want to BE abominations.

But neither can 'mages' be categorized in a single way. The system worked best when it took that into account - that some mages are fine if left to their own devices, some are best if kept away from worldly issues, some can't have power without wanting to use it to rule, and so on. Mages are people; they're no more and no less corruptible than the average human being. We've had ethical rulers and leaders, and we've had corrupt tyrants. Once the system started trying to force All Mages into a single position it was *bound* to fail.

And - again at the human level - some people being born with power and some not has a tendency to lead to a fear reaction. That templars who had faced blood magic would fear all mages is absolutely understandable. That they were kept on duty to police mages who had - up to that point - shown no signs of ever wanting to use blood magic, is not. It's just...an inevitable spiral, which I think has kinda been the point of the games thus far. Seeing the dark side of magic leads to an understandable fear of the potential of any mage to go there. Acting on that fear makes mages more likely to lash out than they otherwise would have been; lashing out justifies the fear even more and leads to greater repression, which in turn leads to more lashing out, until boom.

I don't think DA3 will force a pro-templar response. At least I hope it won't. What I really hope for is that there is a reasonable alternative; some way to let those mages that can and want to either retreat from society a la the old Circles, or live in the world as battlemages or healers or whatever, without necessarily ruling it a la the Imperium. Any blanket solution is going to result in mages for whom the solution is a poor fit, which while typical of the games thus far, would just mean revisiting this conflict in a later game. And frankly, while I do think this conflict merits a few games - so do several other conflicts we've seen outlined in Thedas thus far.

#810
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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silentassassin264 wrote...

1. Caladrius
2. Hadriana
3. Denarius
4. Velanna
5. Danzig

Yes I cheated and used Magisters.  And I am aware this doesn't help my position. 


No, it kind of does. Magisters are mages who have usurped their overseers. This does point out how dangerous a mage who has recieved the wrong kinds of messages growing up can be.

Edit: Wait, you're against the templars. Sorry, never mind.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 novembre 2012 - 08:47 .


#811
silentassassin264

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

1. Caladrius
2. Hadriana
3. Denarius
4. Velanna
5. Danzig

Yes I cheated and used Magisters.  And I am aware this doesn't help my position. 


No, it kind of does. Magisters are mages who have usurped their overseers. This does point out how dangerous a mage who has recieved the wrong kinds of messages growing up can be.

Edit: Wait, you're against the templars. Sorry, never mind.

Well I wouldn't say completely against Templars.  I believe there should be Templars to fight against abuses from magic.  I just don't agree with the Circle system.

#812
Fredward

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I'd argue that the magisters don't fall under the role of "regular" mages since their culture and positions in their society basically grants them immunity and super fat heads. And this is a regional/cultural thing not an innate mage thing.

I haven't played Awakenings to the Baronness yet so I'll give you that one (unless she was insane). Quentin was insane all on his own, no abominationess required just plain ol' insanity of which mundanes are also susceptible. And Marethari never REALLY did anything horrible did she? She always tried to help (stupidly) and even saved Feynriel.

#813
EmperorSahlertz

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silentassassin264 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That minority is still capable of untold destruction, and if the mages were allowed to walk around freely, that minority would be even bigger. How many mages have the Circle prevented from doing something bad? We can't possibly know for certain, but we can be certain that it has prevented such actions.

Everyone in Thedas is capable of untold destruction.

"Demonic spirits teach more than blood magic. Reavers terrorize their enemies, feast upon the souls of their slain opponents to heal their own flesh, and can unleash a blood frenzy that makes them more powerful as they come nearer to their own deaths."

"A true reaver has tasted the ritually prepared blood of a dragon. It is more than a state of mind. These fearsome warriors revel in death, regaining energy from the suffering of their foes."

ANYONE in Thedas can either ask demons for magic or drain a dragonling/wyvern (Kolgrim says Wyvern even though MoTA might have retconned that).  Reavers can create psychic death fields and rip peoples lifeforce directly out of their bodies.  They are well nigh impossible to kill because they get disproportiantely stronger the more you injure them and even get supernatural speed.  To top it off, since Reaver's magic is not based on mana and lyrium, Templar anti-magics have minimal effect against it.  So why aren't all the people of Thedas confined in cities lest they run run into a drake or dragonlings in the wild and drink of their blood.  Or perhaps run across a place where the veil is thin so even a mundane could ask a demon for magic?  

Yeah... Not every person on Thedas got access to Dragon's blood..... Furthermore not everyone is capable of becomming an Abomination simply by mere existance. The thing is, a mundane has to train, work, cheat, lie, decieve, and basically depend on a lot of outside factors for him to ever come close to the destructive potential a mage harbor from birth.
So no. While all people on Thedas may harbor the potential for destruction. Only mages doesn't have to work for it. They are dangerous by existance.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 novembre 2012 - 09:16 .


#814
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I'd argue that the magisters don't fall under the role of "regular" mages since their culture and positions in their society basically grants them immunity and super fat heads. And this is a regional/cultural thing not an innate mage thing.

I haven't played Awakenings to the Baronness yet so I'll give you that one (unless she was insane). Quentin was insane all on his own, no abominationess required just plain ol' insanity of which mundanes are also susceptible. And Marethari never REALLY did anything horrible did she? She always tried to help (stupidly) and even saved Feynriel.


Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?

#815
Fredward

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?


NOPE! :D

But that's not what we're discussing here. I want to point out that the MAJORITY of heinous, heinous acts (outside of the Imperium which really fosters such things) have all been to overthrow the templars/Chantry/Circle. Remove that and we have real minorities like crazy Quentin to contend with. Can the Circle system be justified then? Locking mages up for a true minority?

#816
Herr Uhl

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I haven't played Awakenings to the Baronness yet so I'll give you that one (unless she was insane).


She isn't an abomination, but she used young girls to rejuvenate herself. When the village revolted she transported it into the fade. In the fade she became a pride demon by feeding on the souls of the trapped villagers somehow.

It is kind of weird.

#817
Fredward

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I haven't played Awakenings to the Baronness yet so I'll give you that one (unless she was insane).


She isn't an abomination, but she used young girls to rejuvenate herself. When the village revolted she transported it into the fade. In the fade she became a pride demon by feeding on the souls of the trapped villagers somehow.

It is kind of weird.


Wow. Yeah she definitely falls into the "should be locked up" group. xp

#818
BlueMagitek

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?


NOPE! :D

But that's not what we're discussing here. I want to point out that the MAJORITY of heinous, heinous acts (outside of the Imperium which really fosters such things) have all been to overthrow the templars/Chantry/Circle. Remove that and we have real minorities like crazy Quentin to contend with. Can the Circle system be justified then? Locking mages up for a true minority?


Of course, the vast majority of mages are only surrounded by Templar and as such don't really have any other target (aside from other mages). 

The mages outside the Circle who commit atrocities (Flemeth, Connor) tend to be larger in scale. :mellow:

#819
The Elder King

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BlueMagitek wrote...



Of course, the vast majority of mages are only surrounded by Templar and as such don't really have any other target (aside from other mages). 

The mages outside the Circle who commit atrocities (Flemeth, Connor) tend to be larger in scale. :mellow:


I'd say we don't know yet if Flemeth committed atrocities, at least in large scale. What we know for certain is that she killed Conobar and his soldiers. Which isn't that big of achievment.

#820
silentassassin264

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?

Loghain nearly destroyed an entire country by going nuts and he lacked any magic whatsoever.  I think near destruction of an entire country beats mage damage.

#821
Herr Uhl

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silentassassin264 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?

Loghain nearly destroyed an entire country by going nuts and he lacked any magic whatsoever.  I think near destruction of an entire country beats mage damage.

That requires being in a place of power to begin with. And the blight helped him.

#822
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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silentassassin264 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?

Loghain nearly destroyed an entire country by going nuts and he lacked any magic whatsoever.  I think near destruction of an entire country beats mage damage.


Given a sufficient number of posts, it is inevitable that Loghain will come up in discussion of Dragon Age.

#823
frankf43

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I have a major problem with the whole Chantry/Templar view of mages and how to handle their power.
They teach that mages have an unrivalled power that if it goes rouge is uncontrollable. This is total tosh. I have far more problem fighting a group of Assassins than I ever had fighting either mages or abominations.
Once a mage becomes an abomination it’s a piece of cake to dispatch.

The whole mages are capable of destroying the world is just bigoted propaganda that I personally have had a major problem with since the Chantry was first introduced in DA:O.

The whole Circle solution reminds me of Adolf Hitler’s Death Came solution for Jews therefore it is a concept that I can never support.

If a mage goes Blood magic then that is an act of free will and should not impact on the mage community as a whole. It should lead to that person being hunted by either a self-regulating mages guild or a government backed Templar order.

The fact that the world supports an order that contravenes the right of a major part of the populace based on the fact that they can turn into this ineffectual daemon wannabe just completely astounds and sickens me.

Is Anders right to bomb the order that believes he is sub-human because of a condition of birth is debatable. It depends on your point of view. There is an old saying, “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”

#824
silentassassin264

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Herr Uhl wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Are mundanes as dangerous when they go nuts as mages are?

Loghain nearly destroyed an entire country by going nuts and he lacked any magic whatsoever.  I think near destruction of an entire country beats mage damage.

That requires being in a place of power to begin with. And the blight helped him.

So what you are saying is that regardless of who is control, whoever is in power can be a person of mass destruction?  

And the blight helping does not change the fact unless you are going to discount demon intervention in making mages dangerous.

#825
The Elder King

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frankf43 wrote...

I have a major problem with the whole Chantry/Templar view of mages and how to handle their power.
They teach that mages have an unrivalled power that if it goes rouge is uncontrollable. This is total tosh. I have far more problem fighting a group of Assassins than I ever had fighting either mages or abominations.
Once a mage becomes an abomination it’s a piece of cake to dispatch.

The whole mages are capable of destroying the world is just bigoted propaganda that I personally have had a major problem with since the Chantry was first introduced in DA:O.



Those are gameplay problems. Do you expect that people are able to survive against a fireball or a lightning attack so easily? Or that they would survive being completely frozen?
In lore, abominations are a terrible threat, far more stronger than mages.