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[EmperorSahlertz]

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

[Fredward]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Uh... yes. But unarmed? It could have been an suprise attack by a saarebas that almost got Hawke and co as well. And they weren't "battlemages" battlemages imply mages who have studied magic specifically FOR BATTLE. These were Circle mages. Also, how many were there? Three? Four? We also have no way of knowing how far along these mages were, it could've been some noobie field trip or something so no, bad example.

[Heimdall]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Uh... yes. But unarmed? It could have been an suprise attack by a saarebas that almost got Hawke and co as well. And they weren't "battlemages" battlemages imply mages who have studied magic specifically FOR BATTLE. These were Circle mages. Also, how many were there? Three? Four? We also have no way of knowing how far along these mages were, it could've been some noobie field trip or something so no, bad example.

He didn't say unarmed, he said unarmored

[Fredward]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Uh... yes. But unarmed? It could have been an suprise attack by a saarebas that almost got Hawke and co as well. And they weren't "battlemages" battlemages imply mages who have studied magic specifically FOR BATTLE. These were Circle mages. Also, how many were there? Three? Four? We also have no way of knowing how far along these mages were, it could've been some noobie field trip or something so no, bad example.

He didn't say unarmed, he said unarmored

Oops. Scratch that then, the rest still holds though. xp

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Slain by HOW many qunari?
One corpse does not mean 1 qunari was fighting.  Those city guards might have been fighting 10 quanri... or 5... or 20.
Same for mages.
And agian - surprise attack

And lastly - gamplay is inferior to fluff. The game makes tons of errors and inconcistencies.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Uh... yes. But unarmed? It could have been an suprise attack by a saarebas that almost got Hawke and co as well. And they weren't "battlemages" battlemages imply mages who have studied magic specifically FOR BATTLE. These were Circle mages. Also, how many were there? Three? Four? We also have no way of knowing how far along these mages were, it could've been some noobie field trip or something so no, bad example.

Last I checked there were six, which with Orsino makes them seven, which would be same that the Ferelden Circle sent to the Battle of Ostagar, so clearly seven mages would be considered enough for an entire battle. And since no Saarebas was present in that encounter, I'm guessing they weren't ambushed like Hawke. They may have been ambushed, but it was not a sudden magical attack. And if they hold the rank of "mage" then they are fully fledged members of the Circle, and thus also knows at least basic combat magic.
And despite the circumstances, it still shows that the Qunari were superior to the Kirkwall forces.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Slain by HOW many qunari?
One corpse does not mean 1 qunari was fighting.  Those city guards might have been fighting 10 quanri... or 5... or 20.
Same for mages.
And agian - surprise attack

And lastly - gamplay is inferior to fluff. The game makes tons of errors and inconcistencies.

All the CIty Guards lie surrounding and facing that one Qunari, with no other corpses in the near vicinity. So they were obviously fighting that one Qunari.
And a surprise attack only serves to prove the QUnari superiority to the forces of Kirkwall. If Kirwall forces can be ambushed within their own city, when they even know exactly where the Qunari were, the Qunari clearly had the advantage.
And there is nothing gameplay about the scenery. Scenery and cut scenes are fluff not gameplay.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[Fredward]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And despite the circumstances, it still shows that the Qunari were superior to the Kirkwall forces.

Oh yeah, without a doubt. Kirkwall reacted HORRIBLY to the whole attack. I just don't think that specific encounter with the mages is something that could be generalized as something that would happen consistently if qunari met mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And despite the circumstances, it still shows that the Qunari were superior to the Kirkwall forces.

Oh yeah, without a doubt. Kirkwall reacted HORRIBLY to the whole attack. I just don't think that specific encounter with the mages is something that could be generalized as something that would happen consistently if qunari met mage.

I was merely using it as an example of Qunari fighting Circle mages, and using it to point out that the Circle joinning in was not necceasrily going to change anyhting, since evidently the Qunari were adapt at fighting mages.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[badboy64]

Where we're the Templars during these attacks? As I recall Grandcleric and Ser Cullen saying the Templars would defend the city if the Qatari attend Kirkwall.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars joined late in the fighting, sicne they had to come from the Gallows to join the fight. They were however the only fighitng force of Kirkwall to show even mediocre capability to actually fight off the Qunari. But again, much of that is owed to Hawke.

[Todd23]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A whole group of trained battle mages died at the hands of a single unarmored unit of Qunari soldiers. It took at least 6 fully armed and armored trained City Guards to kill a single unarmored Qunari warrior. Kirkwall stood no chance without Hawke.

Eh? When and where?

Mind you that scenery decorations means nothing.

And I call BS on the bolded. No. friggin. way.

Much as I loathe to agree with Lotion dude that DOES seem extremely unlikely. Unless it was an ambush. While the mages were asleep. And gagged. And tied up. And naked. And possibly dead. XD

You people's lack of faith disapoint me (mind choke).

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Last I checked there were six, which with Orsino makes them seven, which would be same that the Ferelden Circle sent to the Battle of Ostagar, so clearly seven mages would be considered enough for an entire battle. And since no Saarebas was present in that encounter, I'm guessing they weren't ambushed like Hawke. They may have been ambushed, but it was not a sudden magical attack. And if they hold the rank of "mage" then they are fully fledged members of the Circle, and thus also knows at least basic combat magic.
And despite the circumstances, it still shows that the Qunari were superior to the Kirkwall forces.

How can you tell? Why would the entire ambush force stick around, when their goal was the Viscounts keep?

For all we know, those 7 mages  and guards were in the path of the entire qunari force (whicvh is highly probable, since the qunari made a sudden, concetrated push, bee-lining for hte keep), and only a few were left behind.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
All the CIty Guards lie surrounding and facing that one Qunari, with no other corpses in the near vicinity. So they were obviously fighting that one Qunari.
And a surprise attack only serves to prove the QUnari superiority to the forces of Kirkwall. If Kirwall forces can be ambushed within their own city, when they even know exactly where the Qunari were, the Qunari clearly had the advantage.

Or they were all trying to bunch up,  or gang up on that one quanri before being overwhlemened/backstabbed.
But then again, the city guard of Kirkwall does suck.

And there is nothing gameplay about the scenery. Scenery and cut scenes are fluff not gameplay.

You mean fluff like "I am going to kill you with one bullet and your kinectic barrier will magicly dissapear?"
Cutscenes carry more weight than gameplay, but they are still inferior to pure lore, because cutscenes themselves fall under "rule of cool" and end up being full of inconcistencies with the game universe.

[frankf43]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you come across Orsino during the battle, he lies with a group of his slain brethren, all of them mages, all of them (except Bethany in some cases) dead. Slain by Qunari. And scenry and decorations means everything, especially in cases like this. We come across dead Qunari, all surrounded by the corpses of several City Guards, clearly indicating that it takes several City Guards to kill a Qunari solider, even if he is unarmored.

Slain by HOW many qunari?
One corpse does not mean 1 qunari was fighting.  Those city guards might have been fighting 10 quanri... or 5... or 20.
Same for mages.
And agian - surprise attack

And lastly - gamplay is inferior to fluff. The game makes tons of errors and inconcistencies.

I'm completely on the other side on this point. How it works in the game is how it is. The rest is just window dressing. History Books are always slanted towards the view of the writer.
 
If in the game a small group of qunari can decimate the force the circle has sent to help in the defence of the city then that’s fact.  All this oh mages are these super beings who can destroy the world if left to themselves does not hold up in the gameplay. And not just how the fight mechanics work but the back story you can see with your own two eyes.



Whether the qunari had managed to hold out or not they still did more damage than any three or four good mage gone bad incidents in both of the games.
As I was saying it’s the mundanes with power in this game that are the true evil.
Loghain
The Arl of Denerim and his son
Rendon Howe
The Arishok
Meredith
 
All did far more damage to the world of Thades than all the mages incidents in the game.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Last I checked there were six, which with Orsino makes them seven, which would be same that the Ferelden Circle sent to the Battle of Ostagar, so clearly seven mages would be considered enough for an entire battle.

Regarding the mages' presence in Hightown, given the fact that Mages and Templars reside in the Gallows and Hawke/company were in the Docks when **** hit the fan -- along with the idea that it would be hard for the Mages and Templars to get to Hightown before Hawke when they're further away -- I'd conjecture that Orsino and his group were in Hightown originally for different reasons but got caught in the crossfire of the Qunari conflict, making that their new primary objective.

[frankf43]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Last I checked there were six, which with Orsino makes them seven, which would be same that the Ferelden Circle sent to the Battle of Ostagar, so clearly seven mages would be considered enough for an entire battle.

Regarding the mages' presence in Hightown, given the fact that Mages and Templars reside in the Gallows and Hawke/company were in the Docks when **** hit the fan -- along with the idea that it would be hard for the Mages and Templars to get to Hightown before Hawke when they're further away -- I'd conjecture that Orsino and his group were in Hightown originally for different reasons but got caught in the crossfire of the Qunari conflict, making that their new primary objective.

Meredith would never have allowed six or seven mages to wander the streets of Hightwon they were all confined to the Gallows. We know that the mage that just poped home to see her mother was declared a runaway. what we see in gameplay fact.

[TEWR]

I've argued this before, and my belief is that Orsino lied to Meredith's face about what he wanted to go do, she either bought it or suspected he was lying (I lean more towards suspicion), and took some Mages that he could trust with him to take down Quentin -- preserving the Circle's innocence whilst making amends for being an unwitting accomplice in crimes most foul -- even though by that point, Orsino might not be aware that Hawke's already taken care of Quentin.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened. Orsino lied, Meredith granted it but suspected he was lyring, followed him, and both sides got caught in the Qunari conflict.

That's the only way I can think to explain how the Mages and Templars were in Hightown before Hawke was, when Hawke was closer to Hightown then they were when things went to hell. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 novembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

frankf43 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And lastly - gamplay is inferior to fluff. The game makes tons of errors and inconcistencies.

I'm completely on the other side on this point. How it works in the game is how it is. The rest is just window dressing. History Books are always slanted towards the view of the writer.

Which is a stupid position to take, given that games follow gameplay, not reason.

Tell me, do bandits canonicly rain from the sky?
Do all caves canonicly look the same?
Does a blood mage canonicly expend 10 gallons of blood every time he cuts his wrists?
Are abominations canonicly pushovers?
Is SerCauthrien canonicly capable of taking 50 sword hits to the head?

How come that in ME, during gameplay you can't kill anyone with just one shot with a pistol, yet in cutscenes the pistol is unstoppable killing weapon that ignores barriers?

Time and time again we are shown that the story and setting often suffer in game, because "fun gameplay and balance" take precedence - or the designers simply fai lto find a way to integreate both seemlesly.

This is why books are infinitely susperior when it comes to lore - because they do not have to burden themslves with player interaction, limited development resources, mechanics or the allmighty balance.

They are the purest form of transiting a story/setting.
The next step would be movies.
Then games.
 

If in the game a small group of qunari can decimate the force the circle has sent to help in the defence of the city then that’s fact.  All this oh mages are these super beings who can destroy the world if left to themselves does not hold up in the gameplay. And not just how the fight mechanics work but the back story you can see with your own two eyes.

Game balance and game design tend to have negative impact on the story/settign and world consistency.
As it is, calsses have to be balanced. If a mage was 10x as powerfull as other classes, who would paly other calsses?
So for gameplay purposes, mages are nerfed. But if you read the DA books, you'll see they are portrayed as much more powerfull.
Same principle applies everywhere.

All did far more damage to the world of Thades than all the mages incidents in the game.

Lolno.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened. Orsino lied, Meredith granted it but suspected he was lyring, followed him, and both sides got caught in the Qunari conflict.

That's the only way to explain how the Mages and Templars were in Hightown before Hawke was, when Hawke was closer to Hightown then they were when things went to hell. 

One explanation.
Not the only one.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

[quote]frankf43 wrote...

I'm completely on the other side on this point. How it works in the game is how it is. The rest is just window dressing. History Books are always slanted towards the view of the writer.[/quote]

[/quote]

I don't know what crap you use to look into history in 21th century. I suggest History books of Cambridge. Even WE (don't want to specify) use the History of Islam, Iran and India (from Cambridge) and our uni teachers approved their correctness, neutrality and having minimum of bias.

[Lotion Soronarr]

And lastly- the qunari assault was suicidal. They never stood a chance. Why? Because they were redicolously outnumbered.

All the qunari came from one ship. A ship that was shipwrecked in the storm. So they suffered losses from the storm/shipwreck, from quanri leaving and from all the other incidents during the game.

On the other hand, Kirkwall is a HUGE city. Just looking at it's size, It's population is easily in hunderds of thousands.

So even if one qunari is worth 10...heck, 20 guardsman - there's still 100 of them for every qunari.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

The Qunari are overrated in DA2. Sten could hardly kill 3 armed Human soldiers/warriors singlehandedly in DA:O! lol

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And lastly- the qunari assault was suicidal. They never stood a chance. Why? Because they were redicolously outnumbered.

All the qunari came from one ship. A ship that was shipwrecked in the storm. So they suffered losses from the storm/shipwreck, from quanri leaving and from all the other incidents during the game.

On the other hand, Kirkwall is a HUGE city. Just looking at it's size, It's population is easily in hunderds of thousands.

So even if one qunari is worth 10...heck, 20 guardsman - there's still 100 of them for every qunari.

It was hardly suicidal, since they were able to put a stranglehold on Kirkwall in a matter or hours. The only real threat they faced was from Hawke, his friends, Meredith, Orsino, and what remained of the City Guards.

The City Guards were mostly scattered, since the Arishok already took over their barracks at the Viscount's office, and they couldn't number more than 200 at max. Easy pickings for the Qunari, even more so the Arishok's personal forces.

The templars and mages are easily cut off, since the Qunari already held the docks. Meredith and her templar guard, already in the area, can be dealt with easily. Meredith is a powerful women, but she is just a single warrior against a small army of Qunari.

Hawke and friends wouldn't have even be able to save the day if it wasn't for Meredith. They were all taken down by a single saarebas.

And finally Orsino... While he is a powerful mage, all he did to really help (for me at least) was kite the Qunari around, so Hawke could take down the Arishok.

[frankf43]

[quote]Legatus Arianus wrote...

[quote]frankf43 wrote...

I'm completely on the other side on this point. How it works in the game is how it is. The rest is just window dressing. History Books are always slanted towards the view of the writer.[/quote]

[/quote]

I don't know what crap you use to look into history in 21th century. I suggest History books of Cambridge. Even WE (don't want to specify) use the History of Islam, Iran and India (from Cambridge) and our uni teachers approved their correctness, neutrality and having minimum of bias.[/quote]


I took history in England. never once were we taught about the slave trade that worked out of Liverpool, the Genocide that happened in the formation of the Empire. (By that I mean there is not one single indigenous person still living on the British Caribbean islands.) That we declared that the indigenous people of Australia to be non-human so that we could steal their country. Look at the atrocities committed against the Indian people in the empire none of this was taught in British schools.
 
History is slanted to the view of the writer.
 
But this is way too deep a topic for a game forum.

Modifié par frankf43, 29 novembre 2012 - 11:38 .