1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

It was suicidal.

Again, the qunari are outnumbered. The only reason they even got to the keep was surprise.
The only thing standing between them and the keep were a few guardsmen.

If the qunari were really considered that big of a threat, then there would be far more soldiers and mages stationed near their compound. No one really expected the quanri to do what they did.

And the Guard couldnt' num,ber more than 200? Lol. In a city of hunderds of thousands?

Tell me - how many qunari are there? 100? 200? Heck, let's be generous and say 500.

Thats 500. Against an army of templars, mages and 100000 mundanes.

[Inquisitor Arc]

IIRC there were around 200 Qunari total. Still the Qunari have always been outnumbered, and rely on superior skill and technology to make up for the difference.

[Urzon]

Outnumbered doesn't mean outmatched. It would be stupid to think otherwise, even more so towards the Qunari. When they first invaded, their force was able to conquer a big portion of Thedas, and it took three Exalted Marches to even bring them to a stalemate. That is how superior they are in combat. It took all of Thedas three tries to push them back.

On a lighter note, I would like to see where you are getting your numbers at. I'm very interested, since we know from Aveline that guards we signed in pairs, and we only had a single pair doing patrols over large areas like the Docks or the Wounded Coast at a time.

That doesn't sound anything like a huge force of people like you are describing.

Plus, as i've stated before, the templar and mages wouldn't be able to help. They have to cross the river in boats to get to Kirkwall, and since the Qunari control the docks; they would have no way to get in.

Modifié par Urzon, 29 novembre 2012 - 12:33 .

[TEWR]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

IIRC there were around 200 Qunari total.

300 at least, as Dumar tells us. You fight about 100 Qunari in-game during the actual attack, not counting the recent converts they've acquired from the Alienage -- the Elves numbered somewhere around 30. I did a count of it on one of my older DAII playthroughs. Wasn't particularly fun to stop and count them each time, but meh.

That's simply the gameplay, but it's illustrative of how many there were based on the deaths and defections that happened previously.  There were probably more, but that jives well with the lore we had so it's a reflection of the lore as opposed to the gameplay trying to equal the lore.

When gameplay reflects the lore, it's applicable. Otherwise, it's not. That's my stance.

============================================================================

Regarding the topic at hand:

So... if 100 Qunari, plus 30-40 Elves at least, could put a stranglehold on all of Kirkwall... well... they're not going to be easy to boot out.

They control the Docks, Anders tells you they're working on Darktown if you bring him, the City Guard is decimated and scattered, and the only forces in Kirkwall are... Hawke and company, Orsino, his tiny Mage group, Meredith, and what few Templars were in the city itself.

Add into this the amount of fear most people hold towards the Qunari and not many commoners are going to want to go up against an 8 ft. tall, horned, painted, armed, and menacing looking giant.

It's a stroke of luck that caused the Qunari to be ousted.

Though Bioware mucked up their portrayal of the Arishok as a military genius -- which could be explained by just being too old for the job these days, seeing as he's doomed to fail again if given Isabela.

They reduced it to being an informed ability, rather then a demonstrated one. That he was winning had less to do with real warfare/strategy and more to do with it being written for him to win that far.

For instance, his failing to use the Saar-qamek to control the stairs leading into Hightown or positioning a Saarebas over the stairs themselves. This doesn't happen in the game, when if he did do it he would've been able to keep his position in the Keep a lot longer.

The most you'll see are a couple Saarebas way off in the courtyard, where they can't appropriately respond to intruders should some come up the steps. And then a surprise attack by one because he was off searching for cookies.

Urzon wrote...

On a lighter note, I would like to see where you are getting your numbers at

His ass.

Or as he'd term it, "common sense".

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 novembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[Lucy Glitter]

frankf43 wrote...
That we declared that the indigenous people of Australia to be non-human so that we could steal their country. 

Uh, I did. In Australia. In school. We are taught all about how much crap the government put the Aboriginals through. Sorry to make you feel old, but that's changed now. Schools nowadays love reminding you of how horrible your potential ancestors were and love strutting the poor scholarship students around like they are prize pigs.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And lastly- the qunari assault was suicidal. They never stood a chance. Why? Because they were redicolously outnumbered.

All the qunari came from one ship. A ship that was shipwrecked in the storm. So they suffered losses from the storm/shipwreck, from quanri leaving and from all the other incidents during the game.

On the other hand, Kirkwall is a HUGE city. Just looking at it's size, It's population is easily in hunderds of thousands.

So even if one qunari is worth 10...heck, 20 guardsman - there's still 100 of them for every qunari.

Military tactics is not your strong point is it? in urban warfare its the quality that matters not the quantity. And if you havent noticed all major military leaders are either captured or seperated from their troops safe meredith. and where do you get your numbers from?

[Fredward]

To be fair Aveline does postulate that the Arishok has been planning this attack for months, or did she say a while? And besides Kirkwall really does lend itself to be taken over from the inside. I mean separating the mages and Templars from getting to the city would be really easy if you could just put a stranglehold on the docks. Couple this with the fact that the Qunari IMMEDIATELY went for Hightown to round up the nobles and take the Viscount hostage which would effectively put the guards on ice...

It was a brilliant plan really and the Qunari ARE excellent warriors but I don't think the Kirkwall coupe means they can just steamroll everything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
His ass.

Aths' my pet name for your head.


Qunari are all from ONE ship. How many can there posibly be?
Large ship of comparable time periods had a maximum of 1000 poeple (and that's for shorter voyages, when you're not worried about speed...like let's say chasing a pirate with a holy book. Qunari, being bigger also weight more and require more food)

How many of them died in the shipwreck and later?
Even 500 is a very generous number to give them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Military tactics is not your strong point is it? in urban warfare its the quality that matters not the quantity. And if you havent noticed all major military leaders are either captured or seperated from their troops safe meredith. and where do you get your numbers from?

Remembe Black HAwk Down?
Remeber how I all those US commandos won and took over the city?

Oh wait, they didn't. Even with all the air and ground support and advanced technology. Sure, they killed a helluva lot of enemies, but they were still sent running.

When every window in the city holds a crossbow with your name on it, you aint' getting far.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...

Outnumbered doesn't mean outmatched. It would be stupid to think otherwise, even more so towards the Qunari. When they first invaded, their force was able to conquer a big portion of Thedas, and it took three Exalted Marches to even bring them to a stalemate. That is how superior they are in combat. It took all of Thedas three tries to push them back.

We do not know how many qunari were involved, nor the actual numbers of the Chantry side.

If you look at our own Crusades, they weren't as unified or a collection of ALL armies as one would believe.

[frankf43]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

frankf43 wrote...
That we declared that the indigenous people of Australia to be non-human so that we could steal their country. 

Uh, I did. In Australia. In school. We are taught all about how much crap the government put the Aboriginals through. Sorry to make you feel old, but that's changed now. Schools nowadays love reminding you of how horrible your potential ancestors were and love strutting the poor scholarship students around like they are prize pigs.

I'm glad things have changed for the better.

Not that I'm not proud of where I come from but we should own up to past sins:)

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qunari are all from ONE ship. How many can there posibly be?
Large ship of comparable time periods had a maximum of 1000 poeple (and that's for shorter voyages, when you're not worried about speed...like let's say chasing a pirate with a holy book. Qunari, being bigger also weight more and require more food)

How many of them died in the shipwreck and later?
Even 500 is a very generous number to give them.

Don't forget, some of them went Tal-Vashoth after arrival.

Modifié par Auintus, 29 novembre 2012 - 02:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
His ass.

Aths' my pet name for your head.


Qunari are all from ONE ship. How many can there posibly be?
Large ship of comparable time periods had a maximum of 1000 poeple (and that's for shorter voyages, when you're not worried about speed...like let's say chasing a pirate with a holy book. Qunari, being bigger also weight more and require more food)

How many of them died in the shipwreck and later?
Even 500 is a very generous number to give them.

The Qunari Juggernaut was not sent to chase another ship. It was sent to deliver the Arishok to a diplomatic meeting, in which he would retrive the Tome of Koslun. Isabela was not part of the plan. So the Juggernaut could very likely be fully manned, and since it is the largest kind of ship in Thedas, you can expect a very high crew size. And since it capsized just off the coast, and given the hardiness of the Qunari, there is a good chance that the majority of the crew survived.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Military tactics is not your strong point is it? in urban warfare its the quality that matters not the quantity. And if you havent noticed all major military leaders are either captured or seperated from their troops safe meredith. and where do you get your numbers from?

Remembe Black HAwk Down?
Remeber how I all those US commandos won and took over the city?

Oh wait, they didn't. Even with all the air and ground support and advanced technology. Sure, they killed a helluva lot of enemies, but they were still sent running.

When every window in the city holds a crossbow with your name on it, you aint' getting far.

Every person in Kirkwall aren't a combatant. And the battle of mogadishu is not an aplicaple comparison. First of all the American forces had not planned for the situation at all, and they were the force taken by surprise. Had the US forces actually planned to take the city, they could have done so easily, and with fewer combatants than the Somali.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Every person in Kirkwall aren't a combatant. And the battle of mogadishu is not an aplicaple comparison. First of all the American forces had not planned for the situation at all, and they were the force taken by surprise. Had the US forces actually planned to take the city, they could have done so easily, and with fewer combatants than the Somali.

No, they couldn't have - or bettter said, with the forces they had there that day, they couldn't have.

Which is the point - superior training and technology is a force multiplayer, but it only goes so far.
And pretty much everyone in Kirkwall can use a crossbow. Not that they would, but tehy could.

Not that you even need everyone. Heck, if every 10th citizen attacks the qunari unarmed, they'll still win.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Of course the US forces in the actual Battle of Mogadishu couldn't have taken the city, they were taken by surprise by a numerically superior foe, and their supply line was cut off. I am saying that if the US forces had actually wanted and planned for the taking of Mogadishu, they could have done so easily, even with the Somali being nummerically superior.

Kirkwall has a standing army, so the common citizen is not going to tkae up arms against the Qunari, especially not when the Qunari have made no aggressive move towards the inhabitants of Lowtown.

And your numbers of Kirkwall inhabitants is completely through the roof. There is no way that a medieval city like Kirkwall could ever sustain a population of hundreds of thousands. It simply isn't possible. Far more likely that the population is in the tens of thousands. For reference, consider that London had around 70.000 inhabitants in the early 1300s.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course the US forces in the actual Battle of Mogadishu couldn't have taken the city, they were taken by surprise by a numerically superior foe, and their supply line was cut off. I am saying that if the US forces had actually wanted and planned for the taking of Mogadishu, they could have done so easily, even with the Somali being nummerically superior.

No, because the forces they had are just not sufficient.
The qunari in Kirkwall didn't have supply lines. They are just as isolated as hte US forces in mogadishu. more actually.

And your numbers of Kirkwall inhabitants is completely through the roof. There is no way that a medieval city like Kirkwall could ever sustain a population of hundreds of thousands. It simply isn't possible. Far more likely that the population is in the tens of thousands. For reference, consider that London had around 70.000 inhabitants in the early 1300s.

And? Rome had 1 million.

[Harle Cerulean]

Lotion, Emperor, can I just say that when you two go back and forth, I get so very confused? Your avatars are too similar! I keep going "Wasn't he just arguing the opposite position-? Wait, no. Yes? No."

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And? Rome had 1 million.

Kirkwall isn't the seat of an empire. If anything, that would be more along the lines of Orlais. Kirkwall on the other hand, is a major trade and port city. Just like London was.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course the US forces in the actual Battle of Mogadishu couldn't have taken the city, they were taken by surprise by a numerically superior foe, and their supply line was cut off. I am saying that if the US forces had actually wanted and planned for the taking of Mogadishu, they could have done so easily, even with the Somali being nummerically superior.

No, because the forces they had are just not sufficient.
The qunari in Kirkwall didn't have supply lines. They are just as isolated as hte US forces in mogadishu. more actually.

The Qunari don't need supply lines. And the US forces had the equipment to wipe Mogadishu off the face of the planet had they wanted to. However, since they were a peacekeeping force, that was not their MO, and thus they didn't.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And your numbers of Kirkwall inhabitants is completely through the roof. There is no way that a medieval city like Kirkwall could ever sustain a population of hundreds of thousands. It simply isn't possible. Far more likely that the population is in the tens of thousands. For reference, consider that London had around 70.000 inhabitants in the early 1300s.

And? Rome had 1 million.

Rome had the luxury of advanced technology (compared to the time period), and being the center of an entire Empire. Supplies were flowing into Rome from all corners of the world. Kirkwall is not Rome. It is an ancient city perhaps, but its a meagre shadow of what it once was under the Tevinter Imperium. Not that Kirkwall was a happy place, but at least it had the infrastructure to sustain itself. Now without the magical and technological aid of the Imperium, Kirkwall simply don't have the manpower or resources to sustain a population in the hundreds of thousands, it simply isn't feasible.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Of course the US forces in the actual Battle of Mogadishu couldn't have taken the city, they were taken by surprise by a numerically superior foe, and their supply line was cut off. I am saying that if the US forces had actually wanted and planned for the taking of Mogadishu, they could have done so easily, even with the Somali being nummerically superior.

No, because the forces they had are just not sufficient.
The qunari in Kirkwall didn't have supply lines. They are just as isolated as hte US forces in mogadishu. more actually.

And your numbers of Kirkwall inhabitants is completely through the roof. There is no way that a medieval city like Kirkwall could ever sustain a population of hundreds of thousands. It simply isn't possible. Far more likely that the population is in the tens of thousands. For reference, consider that London had around 70.000 inhabitants in the early 1300s.

And? Rome had 1 million.

Epic fail. You describe an attack where the americans where not even interrested in taking the city. it was an extraction mission. epic fail.  Do you know the battle of Eben Emael. a group of german paratroopers managed to capture the most powerful fortress in ww2 while outnumberd nearly 1:8. . assaults what the qunari did are possible and has happend for centuries in warfare.

And FFS. Rome had 1 million people in the roman time . And in the roman times people had far better agriculture , urban planning , water management and hygiene then in the medieval times. Epic fail again. Stop embarrassing yourself because your knowledge about ancient times would not fill a coffeecup.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Lotion, Emperor, can I just say that when you two go back and forth, I get so very confused? Your avatars are too similar! I keep going "Wasn't he just arguing the opposite position-? Wait, no. Yes? No."

You aren't the first to comment on that 

The hope is to be immortalized as two bickering Templars in an installment of the DA series  (J/K.. would be awesome though)

[frankf43]

Rome's population never went above 50 000 though out the middle ages.
http://www.infopleas...ieval-rome.html

[EmperorSahlertz]

Romes population pretty much plummeted in the second century AD. The only European (or near-European anyway) city that held a population close to 1 million in the medieval ages taht I know of, is Constantinople. But Constantinople also had the luxury of advanced Roman technology, which the rest of the world didn't.

[frankf43]

Moscow 200 000
Venice 100 000+

[EmperorSahlertz]

Still not even close to 1 million.