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[Auintus]

I think that the Qunari could have held Kirkwall, were it not for Hawke's intervention. Once forces from the rest of the Free Marches came, however...

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No, because the forces they had are just not sufficient.
The qunari in Kirkwall didn't have supply lines. They are just as isolated as hte US forces in mogadishu. more actually.[/quote]

The Qunari don't need supply lines. And the US forces had the equipment to wipe Mogadishu off the face of the planet had they wanted to. However, since they were a peacekeeping force, that was not their MO, and thus they didn't.[/quote]

No, they didn't. You are thinking of the entire US force, insted of only the force in the city.



[quote]
Rome had the luxury of advanced technology (compared to the time period), and being the center of an entire Empire. Supplies were flowing into Rome from all corners of the world. Kirkwall is not Rome. It is an ancient city perhaps, but its a meagre shadow of what it once was under the Tevinter Imperium. Not that Kirkwall was a happy place, but at least it had the infrastructure to sustain itself. Now without the magical and technological aid of the Imperium, Kirkwall simply don't have the manpower or resources to sustain a population in the hundreds of thousands, it simply isn't feasible.
[/quote]

And Rome had 1 million long before the middle ages. What this means is that high population numbers are very possible and likely.

And Kirkwall is a massive city according to what we see in-game. So don't tell me it's sustaint hunderds of thousands. Becuase that's BS. I live in europe and I know old towns smaller than Kirkwall with friggin huge populations.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Epic fail. You describe an attack where the americans where not even interrested in taking the city. it was an extraction mission. epic fail.  Do you know the battle of Eben Emael. a group of german paratroopers managed to capture the most powerful fortress in ww2 while outnumberd nearly 1:8. . assaults what the qunari did are possible and has happend for centuries in warfare.

And FFS. Rome had 1 million people in the roman time . And in the roman times people had far better agriculture , urban planning , water management and hygiene then in the medieval times. Epic fail again. Stop embarrassing yourself because your knowledge about ancient times would not fill a coffeecup.

Doesn't matter what the americans wanted. The qunari didn't come to kirkwall to take it over.
They had a small, depleted force in the middle of a hostile city.
And a fortress is not a city with tens (or hunderds) of thousands of inhabitants.

What the qunari did was suicide. Plain and simple. The Arishok was suicidal at that point.

Also, TheDas isn't a direct copy of our world - it didn't have Rome, it didn't have the plague nor any other historical events. And the actual state of farming technology is an unknown.

Epic fail yes - but on your part.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

I think that the Qunari could have held Kirkwall, were it not for Hawke's intervention. Once forces from the rest of the Free Marches came, however...

And here I though you actually believed mages were powerfull....

But apaprently you think one of the biggest circles and an army of templars + soldiers can't beat back 100 qunari.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

At most these 100-200 Quanri can kill one or two thousand soldiers. They're not an army of Supermen or Hulks!
This small invasion should be focused on a specific target, or be a Partisan like fast attack or be completely r3tarded!

[Solmanian]

Hmm, I'm doing a new playthrough of DA:O these days (and hopefully DA:A and DA2 after that), and I just finished the circle part yesterday. From what the charecters say I gvather the following points:

1. Alot of mages feel molested (not neccessarily in the sexual term) by the constant templar supervision.

2. Templars harressing mages in the circle are considered (by the templars and chantry) as bad templars don't neccessarily mean that all templars are bad or that it is acceptable behavior.

3. The knight commander states that the templars provide guidance, and that the first enchanter has the last word.

4. The mage origin showed a deep rivalry between mages and templars as demonstrated by Irvin approach of "if one of ours goes down, we make sure one of theirs go aswell".

5. Cullen "kill them all" approach is acknowledged to be mainly due to the turture and traumatisation he endured by the hands of the malfies (is a "malfy" an acceptable replacemnet for writing "maleficurom" again and again?), and in the mage orgin he apperaed very pleasent toward the mage.

6. In the comics it is stated that circle mages aren't allowed to "breed" with anyone (regular sexual activity for non procreation porpuse is probably also forbidden.frown upon due to the medieval neture of the settings and the chantry being in charge).

7. Templars are apparently "dormant" mages. While the precise recruitment method of templars isn't very clear, it is unlikely that such "dormant" or potential mages will be allowed to go around without supervision. The templars/chantry probably has a way of detecting them (just like mages) and giving them "an offer they can't refuse". Alistair didn't make it sound like he had alot of choice.

8. Templars are a monastic order. No sex, no family, no titles and lands.

Overall conclusion:
The templars and mages seem like two sides of the same coin. The templars oppress mages, and in turn oppressed by the chantry. Than again, without the chantry to "oppress" the templars, they were an order dedicated to the eradicating mages. And without the templars to oppress mages, blood mages would have taken over just like in tevintar.

There aren't any mustach twirling villains here. Just three factions trying to live with the lesser evil, with no actual alternative sulotion suggested by those who want to replace the status quo with anarchy. Even amongst the BSNers I've yet to see someone suggest a viable alternative to the "tevintar contingency".

[Solmanian]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Epic fail. You describe an attack where the americans where not even interrested in taking the city. it was an extraction mission. epic fail.  Do you know the battle of Eben Emael. a group of german paratroopers managed to capture the most powerful fortress in ww2 while outnumberd nearly 1:8. . assaults what the qunari did are possible and has happend for centuries in warfare.

And FFS. Rome had 1 million people in the roman time . And in the roman times people had far better agriculture , urban planning , water management and hygiene then in the medieval times. Epic fail again. Stop embarrassing yourself because your knowledge about ancient times would not fill a coffeecup.

Doesn't matter what the americans wanted. The qunari didn't come to kirkwall to take it over.
They had a small, depleted force in the middle of a hostile city.
And a fortress is not a city with tens (or hunderds) of thousands of inhabitants.

What the qunari did was suicide. Plain and simple. The Arishok was suicidal at that point.

Also, TheDas isn't a direct copy of our world - it didn't have Rome, it didn't have the plague nor any other historical events. And the actual state of farming technology is an unknown.

Epic fail yes - but on your part.

rome/byzantiom= Tevintar. Black plague=blight. feraldan/orlesian war=french/english wars.

So when did the americans invade kirkwall and how is it relevant to the mage/templar conflict and this thread?

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I think that the Qunari could have held Kirkwall, were it not for Hawke's intervention. Once forces from the rest of the Free Marches came, however...

And here I though you actually believed mages were powerfull....

But apaprently you think one of the biggest circles and an army of templars + soldiers can't beat back 100 qunari.

Where is the army?
I completely forgot that, as its own city-state in a confederacy, Kirkwall would possess its own standing army. As soon as they came back, the qunari would be hosed, despite the fact that the Keep is a very defensible location.

Mages are powerful, but still mortal. Note that the qunari's greatest advantage was surprise, something that would work devestatingly well against mages. Besides, look at the scope of most magical powers. The qunari have hostages, and clearly don't care to preserve them.

Modifié par Auintus, 29 novembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Epic fail. You describe an attack where the americans where not even interrested in taking the city. it was an extraction mission. epic fail.  Do you know the battle of Eben Emael. a group of german paratroopers managed to capture the most powerful fortress in ww2 while outnumberd nearly 1:8. . assaults what the qunari did are possible and has happend for centuries in warfare.

And FFS. Rome had 1 million people in the roman time . And in the roman times people had far better agriculture , urban planning , water management and hygiene then in the medieval times. Epic fail again. Stop embarrassing yourself because your knowledge about ancient times would not fill a coffeecup.

Doesn't matter what the americans wanted. The qunari didn't come to kirkwall to take it over.
They had a small, depleted force in the middle of a hostile city.
And a fortress is not a city with tens (or hunderds) of thousands of inhabitants.

What the qunari did was suicide. Plain and simple. The Arishok was suicidal at that point.

Also, TheDas isn't a direct copy of our world - it didn't have Rome, it didn't have the plague nor any other historical events. And the actual state of farming technology is an unknown.

Epic fail yes - but on your part.

Trolling you is so easy. alright lets see if i can make you look more of an ignorant jackass. It doesnt matter want the americans wanted? wtf lotion i lmao when i read that. You compare 2 completely different military operations and you pass it of as fact. of the thousand battles and failed assaults in our history you picked one from a movie. 
really Lotion ?

And while Thedas is not the same as our world its still in early/mid middle ages having non of the roman tech to create a city of millions. And if you havent noticed the qunari had completely broken nearly all resistance had held the most important parts of the city as well the best fortified ones.

[DKJaigen]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I think that the Qunari could have held Kirkwall, were it not for Hawke's intervention. Once forces from the rest of the Free Marches came, however...

And here I though you actually believed mages were powerfull....

But apaprently you think one of the biggest circles and an army of templars + soldiers can't beat back 100 qunari.

Where is the army?
I completely forgot that, as its own city-state in a confederacy, Kirkwall would possess its own standing army. As soon as they came back, the qunari would be hosed, despite the fact that the Keep is a very defensible location.

Mages are powerful, but still mortal. Note that the qunari's greatest advantage was surprise, something that would work devestatingly well against mages. Besides, look at the scope of most magical powers. The qunari have hostages, and clearly don't care to preserve them.

This is medieval times you only created an army if you needed it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Solmanian wrote...
6. In the comics it is stated that circle mages aren't allowed to "breed" with anyone (regular sexual activity for non procreation porpuse is probably also forbidden.frown upon due to the medieval neture of the settings and the chantry being in charge).

Comics are crap.
DG specificy said that mages can marry and they can have children, altough most choose not to as it is not encouraged.

7. Templars are apparently "dormant" mages. While the precise recruitment method of templars isn't very clear, it is unlikely that such "dormant" or potential mages will be allowed to go around without supervision. The templars/chantry probably has a way of detecting them (just like mages) and giving them "an offer they can't refuse". Alistair didn't make it sound like he had alot of choice.

Nope. Templars get their pwoers by special training and drinking lyrium.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I think that the Qunari could have held Kirkwall, were it not for Hawke's intervention. Once forces from the rest of the Free Marches came, however...

And here I though you actually believed mages were powerfull....

But apaprently you think one of the biggest circles and an army of templars + soldiers can't beat back 100 qunari.

Where is the army?
I completely forgot that, as its own city-state in a confederacy, Kirkwall would possess its own standing army. As soon as they came back, the qunari would be hosed, despite the fact that the Keep is a very defensible location.

Mages are powerful, but still mortal. Note that the qunari's greatest advantage was surprise, something that would work devestatingly well against mages. Besides, look at the scope of most magical powers. The qunari have hostages, and clearly don't care to preserve them.

The only thing the quanri took and held (for a while) was a keep.

I mena..seriously. The qunari in Kirkwall and shipwrecks. Their numebrs have dwindled over several years. They have no support from outside, they are in a foreign land, in the middle of a hostile city.
Qunari are big, but they aren't supermen.

In normal circumstances, the qunari would have never even reached the keep. They were alredy inside the city wall, they weren't heavly guarded (because no one tough the Arishok would be stupid enough) and they had the element of surprise and momentum to reach the keep. There wasn't a unified, strong defense in their path.
A couple of guardsman will hardly hold 100 charging qunari.

However, the surprise won't (and didn't) last long. As soon as the defenders consolidated, it was over.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Solmanian wrote...
6. In the comics it is stated that circle mages aren't allowed to "breed" with anyone (regular sexual activity for non procreation porpuse is probably also forbidden.frown upon due to the medieval neture of the settings and the chantry being in charge).

Comics are crap.
DG specificy said that mages can marry and they can have children, altough most choose not to as it is not encouraged.

False.  Show the quote or it didn't happen.  The only mages permitted to have children (and keep them anyway) are Grey Warden Mages and that's because they don't fall under Chantry law.  Otherwise it's very clear (and Wynne states this in DAO cannonically), that if a circle mage has a child, it is immediately taken away and fostered within the Chantry.

Now it is true that mages can sometimes marry, but that is strictly up to the First-Enchanter/Knight Commander of each circle.  Ferelden is liberal about this.  Kirkiwall was not.  Even then, the children don't belong to the mage family regardless.  You again make basic lore mistakes.


-Polaris

Edit PS:  Oh, and before anyone tosses out Wilhelm of Honnleth as an example, I point out that he was very much an explicit exception to the rule and won that exception by being a renowned war hero of the Fereldan Rebellion and a lot of very important friends within the Fereldan Nobility.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 novembre 2012 - 09:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Trolling you is so easy. alright lets see if i can make you look more of an ignorant jackass.

Look in the mirror - there you can find one.

It doesnt matter want the americans wanted? wtf lotion i lmao when i read that. You compare 2 completely different military operations and you pass it of as fact. of the thousand battles and failed assaults in our history you picked one from a movie. 
really Lotion ?

So? It was a real historical battle. Plenty of real battles have movies made after them. Does that make them somehow less valid?

And while Thedas is not the same as our world its still in early/mid middle ages having non of the roman tech to create a city of millions.

Sez who? Kirkwall seemed enormeous.
And it doens't have to be millions. Rome was just an example. 200-300 000 is still a freking lot.

And if you havent noticed the qunari had completely broken nearly all resistance had held the most important parts of the city as well the best fortified ones.

They didn't. They bee-lined for the keep and took it. They were being slaughtered by Hawke and a handfull of templars and mages. that's wihout the main templar and mage force joinign the fight. Once they do, it's game over.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The only thing the quanri took and held (for a while) was a keep.

I mena..seriously. The qunari in Kirkwall and shipwrecks. Their numebrs have dwindled over several years. They have no support from outside, they are in a foreign land, in the middle of a hostile city.
Qunari are big, but they aren't supermen.

In normal circumstances, the qunari would have never even reached the keep. They were alredy inside the city wall, they weren't heavly guarded (because no one tough the Arishok would be stupid enough) and they had the element of surprise and momentum to reach the keep. There wasn't a unified, strong defense in their path.
A couple of guardsman will hardly hold 100 charging qunari.

However, the surprise won't (and didn't) last long. As soon as the defenders consolidated, it was over.

True, even had Hawke been absent, the templars and what was left of the mages probably could have beaten the qunari, though they would probably have more casualties too, but such is the power of a PC.

[Herr Uhl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Where is the army?
I completely forgot that, as its own city-state in a confederacy, Kirkwall would possess its own standing army. As soon as they came back, the qunari would be hosed, despite the fact that the Keep is a very defensible location.

Mages are powerful, but still mortal. Note that the qunari's greatest advantage was surprise, something that would work devestatingly well against mages. Besides, look at the scope of most magical powers. The qunari have hostages, and clearly don't care to preserve them.

This is medieval times you only created an army if you needed it.

Especially if you're a city state with no agressors close to you. The city guard is their entire army.

[Auintus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Where is the army?
I completely forgot that, as its own city-state in a confederacy, Kirkwall would possess its own standing army. As soon as they came back, the qunari would be hosed, despite the fact that the Keep is a very defensible location.

Mages are powerful, but still mortal. Note that the qunari's greatest advantage was surprise, something that would work devestatingly well against mages. Besides, look at the scope of most magical powers. The qunari have hostages, and clearly don't care to preserve them.

This is medieval times you only created an army if you needed it.

Especially if you're a city state with no agressors close to you. The city guard is their entire army.

They still had professional soldiers, didn't they? I thought divisions or whatever cycled off in shifts, but I thought some sort of force was ready just in case.

[Inquisitor Arc]

The city guard was created by the orlesian that liberated kirkwall from the qunari during the storm age. Therfore im assuming the city guard is the only standing army in kirkwall besides the templars.

[Melca36]

How can Templars be a monastic order when Aveline married a Templar?

[silentassassin264]

Because they aren't. Templars are not encouraged to get married because they have a very demanding and time consuming job. They can however if the spouse understands they are hardly ever going to see them. Aveline was an officer in the military so she could a) take care of herself financially and wouldn't be able see him much anyway; therefore, their marriage worked I suppose.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 30 novembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[IanPolaris]

Auintus wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Where is the army?
I completely forgot that, as its own city-state in a confederacy, Kirkwall would possess its own standing army. As soon as they came back, the qunari would be hosed, despite the fact that the Keep is a very defensible location.

Mages are powerful, but still mortal. Note that the qunari's greatest advantage was surprise, something that would work devestatingly well against mages. Besides, look at the scope of most magical powers. The qunari have hostages, and clearly don't care to preserve them.

This is medieval times you only created an army if you needed it.

Especially if you're a city state with no agressors close to you. The city guard is their entire army.

They still had professional soldiers, didn't they? I thought divisions or whatever cycled off in shifts, but I thought some sort of force was ready just in case.

Other than a very small royal guard, no.  The modern standing professional army is a very recent (17th century in fact) developement......or perhaps redevelopement if you count Rome.    In a midaeval economy, a standing army is a drag on the treasury without any real gain, and this was with populations that were small fractions of what we have today, and with revenue that was much smaller and much chancier.

A professional soldier until the 18th century was almost always a mercenary.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Because they aren't. Templars are not encouraged to get married because they have a very demanding and time consuming job. They can however if the spouse understands they are hardly ever going to see them. Aveline was an officer in the military so she could a) take care of herself financially and wouldn't be able see him much anyway; therefore, their marriage worked I suppose.

It is my understanding that Templars are in fact Thedas' equivalent of warrior-monks.  While explicit vows of Celibacy don't seem to be taken, otherwise the organizational style does seem to be very similiar.  If so I imgine that the tolerance of married Templars would be very dependant on the local knight commander with Fereldan being the most liberal about this, and Kirkwall being the least.

-Polaris

[Adanu]

Solmanian wrote...

with no actual alternative sulotion suggested by those who want to replace the status quo with anarchy. Even amongst the BSNers I've yet to see someone suggest a viable alternative to the "tevintar contingency".

Pay more attention, me and Auintus came up with a semi viable alternative that might have merit.

[silentassassin264]

IanPolaris wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Because they aren't. Templars are not encouraged to get married because they have a very demanding and time consuming job. They can however if the spouse understands they are hardly ever going to see them. Aveline was an officer in the military so she could a) take care of herself financially and wouldn't be able see him much anyway; therefore, their marriage worked I suppose.

It is my understanding that Templars are in fact Thedas' equivalent of warrior-monks.  While explicit vows of Celibacy don't seem to be taken, otherwise the organizational style does seem to be very similiar.  If so I imgine that the tolerance of married Templars would be very dependant on the local knight commander with Fereldan being the most liberal about this, and Kirkwall being the least.

-Polaris

Templars are not warrior-monks.  Visit the Blooming Rose some in DA2 to see how all those Templars blew of steam.  There is a reason Idunna's plan worked so well.  Templars are the army of the chantry.  They are like any other army and soldiers except they are not under command of the nobles or country...just the Divine and chantry.  

[silentassassin264]

Adanu wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

with no actual alternative sulotion suggested by those who want to replace the status quo with anarchy. Even amongst the BSNers I've yet to see someone suggest a viable alternative to the "tevintar contingency".

Pay more attention, me and Auintus came up with a semi viable alternative that might have merit.

I have posted an alternative solution as well.  I do not support anarchy.  I do not support removing the Templars either.  I am anti-circle but not really anti-templar or pro-mage.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 30 novembre 2012 - 02:11 .