1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

FaWa wrote...

Lol for every good templar there are 3 good mages.

Can you name them?

[Mello]

CrazyRah wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 This better not be the case... The one thing Bioware let us choose our stance on in DA2...

In every single conversation throughout the game, you will be forced to express your undying love of waffles.

No. No, you won`t.

I could actually live with that, waffles are just that awesome 

I actually like pancakes more.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Mary Kirby wrote...

In every single conversation throughout the game, you will be forced to express your undying love of waffles.

Mary Kirby has confirmed the identity of DA:I's protagonist.  The female Inquisitor can now safely be known as Leslie.

[Adanu]

Mary Kirby wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 This better not be the case... The one thing Bioware let us choose our stance on in DA2...

In every single conversation throughout the game, you will be forced to express your undying love of waffles

I would totally get behind this just to ****** off a friend of mine.

[silentassassin264]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I think Anders is good, and that his actions are totally justified.

I am a Mage supporter, but i dare say his action is not justified.

Let say...someone claim Muslims are terrorist. The same time Palestinian Muslims are oppressed by Israel all these time. UN don't give a **** about Palestinians for all these years. USA want to search Iraq to root out so called Weapon of Mass Destruction using authority of UN. Iraq arguing there is no such thing. Then a Muslim out of nowhere blow up WTC building killing people in the name of Islam.....justified?

No, it is stupid.

Let get in game view...Meredith want to investigate the Circle, Orsino chicken out, they arguing, both ask Hawke what to do. The thing can be settled peacefully. Anders show up ignite a bomb destroying the Chantry. What the hell he is doing? He blow up a building and kill all the people just because two stupid people arguing about stupid thing?

It is stupid

Anders is justified.  The thing cannot be solved peacefully.  At best Meredith, Orsino, and Elthina would have been able to return to the status quo, which was bad.  The chantry teaches that mages are dangerous, to be feared, and claims that their rights need to be taken away for the good of all.  That is the status quo.  In order for that to be overturned, the Chantry must fall.  The people who believe it is fine to enslave people to satisfy their religion must be stopped or there will be no advancement for his people.  Anders knew that in order to free his mage brethren, he had to attack the root of the problem, the Chantry, not just killing the mook soldiers, the templars.  

Your Middle East example has no relevance.  9/11 and Saddam had nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestine issue.

[MisterJB]

Honestly, taking into account that the overwhelming majority of players are Pro-Mage and the debacle that was Cerberus in ME3, I think Pro-Templars such as myself have much more to worry about.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 novembre 2012 - 08:56 .

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Anders is justified.  The thing cannot be solved peacefully.  At best Meredith, Orsino, and Elthina would have been able to return to the status quo, which was bad.  The chantry teaches that mages are dangerous, to be feared, and claims that their rights need to be taken away for the good of all.  That is the status quo.  In order for that to be overturned, the Chantry must fall.  The people who believe it is fine to enslave people to satisfy their religion must be stopped or there will be no advancement for his people.  Anders knew that in order to free his mage brethren, he had to attack the root of the problem, the Chantry, not just killing the mook soldiers, the templars.  

Your Middle East example has no relevance.  9/11 and Saddam had nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestine issue.

Killing innocent people to prove point can never be justified.

Modifié par BoBear, 19 novembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[silentassassin264]

They are not innocent. If you support enslaving people to bolster your comfort, then you are just as guilty as the ones with the swords out in front. In slave rebellions in the the pre-civil war South, the often went killing slave owners who didn't personally do anything to them. They obviously supported slavery and obviously deserved to die. Their death was justified because if you just sit around killing slave catchers or the police/national guard, you have not changed the fact that the jerks in control still support slavery.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 19 novembre 2012 - 09:16 .

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...

They are not innocent. If you support enslaving people to bolster your comfort, then you are just as guilty as the ones with the swords out in front. In slave rebellions in the the pre-civil war South, the often went killing slave owners who didn't personally do anything to them. They obviously supported slavery and obviously deserved to die. There death was justified because if you just sit around killing slave catchers or the police/national guard, you have not changed the fact that the jerks in control still support slavery.

There are so many things wrong and offensive about this post...

First, the Circle System is not slavery. It's a limitation of one's freedom based on the very real danger he poses to himself and others. It's no different than the limitations of our freedoms we we deal with everyday, just harsher to deal with the greater danger mages pose.
There is a social inequality but that's because of the very real inequality that exists between mages and mundanes.

Second, saying that a group of priests deserve to die because they were born to a system you disaprove of... So, the only people who are worthy of life are activists and rebels, then?
No, just no. Not only does this place unresonable demands on simple people, it also fails to take into account the political situation of Kirkwall.

[silentassassin264]

Slavery is a system where someone else has absolute control of your life or liberty. In the Circle System, the mages life and liberty are up to the whims of the Chantry and Templars. Their liberty is gone in the first place as they are confined in a prison and their life is forfeit whenever and whatever reason, case in point in of DA2. Meredith had no reason to annul the circle because the circle mages didn't do anything. She just killed them because she felt like it. That is slavery. If you can't understand that then I sincerely feel sorry you. It doesn't matter what their reason for enslaving the mages is, taking away peoples life or liberty without due process is slavery.

Second, yes. If you passively support the enslavement of others then you are just as guilty as those involved. (Godwin's Law time) In WW2, not everyone supported Hitler's party. But do you know what happened to people who supported Hitler's party and just did there job because it was the system? Read up on Adolf Eichmann. Being morally reprehensible because it is normal in society does not exempt you from justice.

[Potato Cat]

There could have been a peaceful solution. Anders refused to see it.

Meredith was the real problem and by simply having her removed from power, the mages would have been far better off. The Divine is even sympathetic to mages, it's why the Templars have rebelled. Anders, (in many playthroughs anyway), will know this when he finds her rejecting the Tranquil Solution. Justinia V, I believe, could have made peace. But now, that's impossible. Because of Anders. Do not like him. Shame he died though, would have liked to have seen him suffer with the guilt a bit longer.

[silentassassin264]

And how would there have been a peaceful solution? You said that that was why the Templars rebelled. The Templars were the military might. Even if the Divine decides to overturn the horrible teaching of the Chantry, she has absolutely no power to enforce her will if the Templars can just rebel and disagree. Regardless of what how it turns out, no change is brought about without violence. If Anders does not instigate it, someone else would have, likely whatever head Templar person who decides to separate from the Chantry for breaking tradition and siding with the mages. Somebody's philosophy is going to have to be put down with violence.

[Potato Cat]

But Anders could have at least done it in a way as to not demonise every mage in the eyes of Thedas. He just killed innocent priests and destroyed a holy building

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...

They are not innocent. If you support enslaving people to bolster your comfort, then you are just as guilty as the ones with the swords out in front. In slave rebellions in the the pre-civil war South, the often went killing slave owners who didn't personally do anything to them. They obviously supported slavery and obviously deserved to die. Their death was justified because if you just sit around killing slave catchers or the police/national guard, you have not changed the fact that the jerks in control still support slavery.

 He commited an act of terror because he didn't like the views of the chantry. So instead of going after the head of the chantry alone he decided it was best to destroy the their place of worship, killing all inside and the surronding area as well. Just because you worship Andraste doesn't mean you have to agree with how the Templars treat mages. It doesn't mean you agree with the blatant abuse. You can take a more liberal interpretations of the teachings and still be a follower of the Chant of Light. And like i said earlier, the explosion killed more then those just inside the chantry. It was a big explosion which sent debris everywhere. I'm sure that people who don't support the Chantry, and even agree with the mages, were caught in the cross fire.

So I'll say again... Killing innocent people to prove a point can never be justified.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Slavery is a system where someone else has absolute control of your life or liberty. In the Circle System, the mages life and liberty are up to the whims of the Chantry and Templars. Their liberty is gone in the first place as they are confined in a prison and their life is forfeit whenever and whatever reason, case in point in of DA2. Meredith had no reason to annul the circle because the circle mages didn't do anything. She just killed them because she felt like it. That is slavery. If you can't understand that then I sincerely feel sorry you. It doesn't matter what their reason for enslaving the mages is, taking away peoples life or liberty without due process is slavery.

No, slavery is a system where people are sold as proprierty and forced to work.
The mages have rights and freedoms such as the right to not be made Tranquil after the Harrowing. How much these rights are respected varies from Circle to Circle but if the police in my town is corrupted, my rights might not be respected.
My freedoms are limited as well. I can't own a gun because I might shoot people with it. There was no due process involved. Maybe I should write a manifesto about how enslaved I am. The freedoms of mages are more limited than mine but they also pose a greater threat to society than I do
Even David Gaider doesn't think the Circle is slavery.
http://social.biowar...ex/6901812&lf=8

BTW, Meredith's reasoning was sound. The people will form an angry mob and take revenge on the Circle for what Anders did. The mages would fight back and kill many. Thus, it's better to send the templars, who are better prepared than the Kirkwallers, against them and save many lives.
I might not agree with it but she didn't annul the Circle because she felt like it.

Second, yes. If you passively support the enslavement of others then you are just as guilty as those involved. (Godwin's Law time) In WW2, not everyone supported Hitler's party. But do you know what happened to people who supported Hitler's party and just did there job because it was the system? Read up on Adolf Eichmann. Being morally reprehensible because it is normal in society does not exempt you from justice.

No. You. Are. Not.
Those were innocent priests who ministred to the needy and had no real power, no armies they could call upon. There was nothing they could have done about the system.
What exactly were they supposed to do? Go on strike? Would they be worthy of life then? Do the people living in Darktown deserve to die too because they couldn't care less about the mage's "plight" because the mages live better than they do?
The only one with any possible power was Elthina and what should she have done? Call the Divine? Start an Exalted March on the streets of Kirkwall? She was worried about the lives of everyone, not just mages like some like Anders are.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...
BTW, Meredith's reasoning was sound. The people will form an angry mob and take revenge on the Circle for what Anders did. The mages would fight back and kill many. Thus, it's better to send the templars, who are better prepared than the Kirkwallers, against them and save many lives.
I might not agree with it but she didn't annul the Circle because she felt like it.

No, she did it because she'd wanted to for years. She had already sought to get the Rite Of Annulment and been rejected by Elthina, and then tried to go over Elthina's head. All this did was remove Elthina, thus giving her both the legal authority for this and an additional, if flimsy, logical argument.

As for the angry mob argument? That is what the templars are for, but Meredith's got it backwards. The Templar Order's duty, in this case, was to wait for the mob to form and read it the Riot Act.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 novembre 2012 - 10:09 .

[Cancermeat]

I haven't posted in awhile, I'm glad to see such things are still being discused.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Slavery is a system where someone else has absolute control of your life or liberty. In the Circle System, the mages life and liberty are up to the whims of the Chantry and Templars. Their liberty is gone in the first place as they are confined in a prison and their life is forfeit whenever and whatever reason, case in point in of DA2. Meredith had no reason to annul the circle because the circle mages didn't do anything. She just killed them because she felt like it. That is slavery. If you can't understand that then I sincerely feel sorry you. It doesn't matter what their reason for enslaving the mages is, taking away peoples life or liberty without due process is slavery.

No, slavery is a system where people are sold as proprierty and forced to work.
The mages have rights and freedoms such as the right to not be made Tranquil after the Harrowing. How much these rights are respected varies from Circle to Circle but if the police in my town is corrupted, my rights might not be respected.
My freedoms are limited as well. I can't own a gun because I might shoot people with it. There was no due process involved. Maybe I should write a manifesto about how enslaved I am. The freedoms of mages are more limited than mine but they also pose a greater threat to society than I do
Even David Gaider doesn't think the Circle is slavery.
http://social.biowar...ex/6901812&lf=8

BTW, Meredith's reasoning was sound. The people will form an angry mob and take revenge on the Circle for what Anders did. The mages would fight back and kill many. Thus, it's better to send the templars, who are better prepared than the Kirkwallers, against them and save many lives.
I might not agree with it but she didn't annul the Circle because she felt like it.

Except I got my definiton from Merriam Webster dictionary and you got your definition from thin air.  Also, it doesn't matter what David Gaider thinks.  This is the same guy who initially ignored the can we be atheist in the game by saying that they never had that option in any game and weren't going to put it in DAI before people gleefully poured in evidence to the contrary.  Gaider is fallible.

And your reasoning for Meredith is exacltly why the Chantry should be destroyed.  They spent preaching how mages are evil so when one mage who had nothing to do with the circle blew up the Chantry, average Kirkwallers would be demanding blood from all mages as to opposed to THE GUY WHO DID IT.  When you have made a system where a whole group of people can be "legitimately" targeted because of the actions of one person, you are are doing it wrong.  

MisterJB wrote...

Second, yes. If you passively support the enslavement of others then you are just as guilty as those involved. (Godwin's Law time) In WW2, not everyone supported Hitler's party. But do you know what happened to people who supported Hitler's party and just did there job because it was the system? Read up on Adolf Eichmann. Being morally reprehensible because it is normal in society does not exempt you from justice.

No. You. Are. Not.
Those were innocent priests who ministred to the needy and had no real power, no armies they could call upon. There was nothing they could have done about the system.
What exactly were they supposed to do? Go on strike? Would they be worthy of life then? Do the people living in Darktown deserve to die too because they couldn't care less about the mage's "plight" because the mages live better than they do?
The only one with any possible power was Elthina and what should she have done? Call the Divine? Start an Exalted March on the streets of Kirkwall? She was worried about the lives of everyone, not just mages like some like Anders are.

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.  Yes they should have striked.  If they still wanted to be Andrastian, they should have separated from the Chantry in Orlais and done the right thing like how Martin Luther founded Protestantism.  They did not.  They are therefore guilty of supporting slavery.

[Cancermeat]

silentassassin264 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Slavery is a system where someone else has absolute control of your life or liberty. In the Circle System, the mages life and liberty are up to the whims of the Chantry and Templars. Their liberty is gone in the first place as they are confined in a prison and their life is forfeit whenever and whatever reason, case in point in of DA2. Meredith had no reason to annul the circle because the circle mages didn't do anything. She just killed them because she felt like it. That is slavery. If you can't understand that then I sincerely feel sorry you. It doesn't matter what their reason for enslaving the mages is, taking away peoples life or liberty without due process is slavery.

No, slavery is a system where people are sold as proprierty and forced to work.
The mages have rights and freedoms such as the right to not be made Tranquil after the Harrowing. How much these rights are respected varies from Circle to Circle but if the police in my town is corrupted, my rights might not be respected.
My freedoms are limited as well. I can't own a gun because I might shoot people with it. There was no due process involved. Maybe I should write a manifesto about how enslaved I am. The freedoms of mages are more limited than mine but they also pose a greater threat to society than I do
Even David Gaider doesn't think the Circle is slavery.
http://social.biowar...ex/6901812&lf=8

BTW, Meredith's reasoning was sound. The people will form an angry mob and take revenge on the Circle for what Anders did. The mages would fight back and kill many. Thus, it's better to send the templars, who are better prepared than the Kirkwallers, against them and save many lives.
I might not agree with it but she didn't annul the Circle because she felt like it.

Except I got my definiton from Merriam Webster dictionary and you got your definition from thin air.  Also, it doesn't matter what David Gaider thinks.  This is the same guy who initially ignored the can we be atheist in the game by saying that they never had that option in any game and weren't going to put it in DAI before people gleefully poured in evidence to the contrary.  Gaider is fallible.

And your reasoning for Meredith is exacltly why the Chantry should be destroyed.  They spent preaching how mages are evil so when one mage who had nothing to do with the circle blew up the Chantry, average Kirkwallers would be demanding blood from all mages as to opposed to THE GUY WHO DID IT.  When you have made a system where a whole group of people can be "legitimately" targeted because of the actions of one person, you are are doing it wrong.  

MisterJB wrote...

Second, yes. If you passively support the enslavement of others then you are just as guilty as those involved. (Godwin's Law time) In WW2, not everyone supported Hitler's party. But do you know what happened to people who supported Hitler's party and just did there job because it was the system? Read up on Adolf Eichmann. Being morally reprehensible because it is normal in society does not exempt you from justice.

No. You. Are. Not.
Those were innocent priests who ministred to the needy and had no real power, no armies they could call upon. There was nothing they could have done about the system.
What exactly were they supposed to do? Go on strike? Would they be worthy of life then? Do the people living in Darktown deserve to die too because they couldn't care less about the mage's "plight" because the mages live better than they do?
The only one with any possible power was Elthina and what should she have done? Call the Divine? Start an Exalted March on the streets of Kirkwall? She was worried about the lives of everyone, not just mages like some like Anders are.

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.  Yes they should have striked.  If they still wanted to be Andrastian, they should have separated from the Chantry in Orlais and done the right thing like how Martin Luther founded Protestantism.  They did not.  They are therefore guilty of supporting slavery.

That is a pretty good round up.

[Warden661]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, she did it because she'd wanted to for years. She had already sought to get the Rite Of Annulment and been rejected by Elthina, and then tried to go over Elthina's head. All this did was remove Elthina, thus giving her both the legal authority for this and an additional, if flimsy, logical argument.

As for the angry mob argument? That is what the templars are for, but Meredith's got it backwards. The Templar Order's duty, in this case, was to wait for the mob to form and read it the Riot Act.

I personally think the idol is to blame (mostly) for Meredith's actions and behaviors. Yes she probably always was a bit prejudice towards mages (you heard reports from mages in act 1 complaining that the Templars were getting more strict under Knight Commander Meredith) but I don't believe she was always the crazy lunatic we saw in act 3. I mean she did reject Sir Alrik's Tranquil Solution idea. Once she had the idol made into the sword and was exposed to it for a prolonged amount of time did she turn into the absolute crazy, act 3, kill all mages Meredith.

Modifié par BoBear, 19 novembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Shadow Fox]

*sigh* starting threads like this should be a bannable offense as they ALWAYS devole into flamewars.

[Warden661]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

*sigh* starting threads like this should be a bannable offense as they ALWAYS devole into flamewars.

But that's what makes them fun!

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Except I got my definiton from Merriam Webster dictionary and you got your definition from thin air.  Also, it doesn't matter what David Gaider thinks.  This is the same guy who initially ignored the can we be atheist in the game by saying that they never had that option in any game and weren't going to put it in DAI before people gleefully poured in evidence to the contrary.  Gaider is fallible.

Wikipedia, actually.
And I gave you examples of rights mages have and how their treatment compares to other practices we don't consider slavery. Which you chose to not approach.
Gaider is fallible but he is right in this. the Circle is not slavery.

And your reasoning for Meredith is exacltly why the Chantry should be destroyed.  They spent preaching how mages are evil so when one mage who had nothing to do with the circle blew up the Chantry, average Kirkwallers would be demanding blood from all mages as to opposed to THE GUY WHO DID IT.  When you have made a system where a whole group of people can be "legitimately" targeted because of the actions of one person, you are are doing it wrong.

First, the Chantry preaches mages are dangerous, which they are, not evil. Their stance is "pity them for they are cursed" and not "hate them".
Second, Meredith's annulment was illegal. The Divine didn't authorize it.
Third, blaming the many for the actions of the few is a staple of mankind. It has happened millions of times in our history and will continue to happen again and again with out without religions.

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.

Limited people's right because they were born dangerous, just like our democracy does.
Do you believe the laws for owning 9mm guns and nuclear bombs should be the same?

[Shadow Fox]

silentassassin264 wrote...

They are not innocent. If you support enslaving people to bolster your comfort, then you are just as guilty as the ones with the swords out in front. In slave rebellions in the the pre-civil war South, the often went killing slave owners who didn't personally do anything to them. They obviously supported slavery and obviously deserved to die. Their death was justified because if you just sit around killing slave catchers or the police/national guard, you have not changed the fact that the jerks in control still support slavery.

You do realize by that same logic*guilt by associaton* every mage ever born deserves to be killed on the spot right?

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 19 novembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BoBear wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, she did it because she'd wanted to for years. She had already sought to get the Rite Of Annulment and been rejected by Elthina, and then tried to go over Elthina's head. All this did was remove Elthina, thus giving her both the legal authority for this and an additional, if flimsy, logical argument.

As for the angry mob argument? That is what the templars are for, but Meredith's got it backwards. The Templar Order's duty, in this case, was to wait for the mob to form and read it the Riot Act.

I personally think the idol is to blame (mostly) for Meredith's actions and behaviors. Yes she probably always was a bit prejudice towards mages (you heard reports from mages in act 1 complaining that the Templars were getting more strict under Knight Commander Meredith) but I don't believe she was always the crazy lunatic we saw in act 3. I mean she did reject Sir Alrik's Tranquil Solution idea. Once she had the idol made into the sword and was exposed to it for a prolonged amount of time did she turn into the absolute crazy, act 3, kill all mages Meredith.

How long had she had it by Act III? I've only ever read the wikia on DA2, so I'm not 100% on the timeline. Anyway, I'd just assumed she'd tried for the Annulment over one of the several year long timeskips, hence that "wanted to for years" argument.