1297 réponses à ce sujet

[frankf43]

silentassassin264 wrote...

The reason the mages turned to blood magic and turned into abominations so much in Kirkwall was the weakened veil, not because of Templar abuse. Even Bethany said the Circle was not that bad as long as she stayed away from Alrik.

If this keeps up, I will have started defending the mages here and then have to defend the templars.

I need a drink.

I would be here if I hadn't already had one:)

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
It's a game. That's the sole reason Stan can immediately stand and fight.
It wouldn't be fun to wait for him to recover from his ordeal. The same reason why we don't spend a week in a  inn aafter a difficult fight, with half hte party crippled.

It still serves to prove the Qunari physiology is superior. Particularly since Sten even comments on it himself. But now I see what the others have ben saying about you ignoring lore when it doesn't serve your purposes.

Well, I'm sorry that you find everyone elses take on the lore as ignorance.
But alas, I do not care, since you don't have hard evidence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

frankf43 wrote...
If the idea of wiping out all the mages for the act of one was not unreasonable than I hope you never sit on a jury in my home town because if one peoron gets found guilt of murder you will want to send everybody who lives here to the  electric chair.

That was not the real reason. The real reason was the ever-increasing blood mage activity, and Meredith was already contemplating annuling the Circle.
Anders just gave Meredith the opening she needed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
It's a game. That's the sole reason Stan can immediately stand and fight.
It wouldn't be fun to wait for him to recover from his ordeal. The same reason why we don't spend a week in a  inn aafter a difficult fight, with half hte party crippled.

It still serves to prove the Qunari physiology is superior. Particularly since Sten even comments on it himself. But now I see what the others have ben saying about you ignoring lore when it doesn't serve your purposes.

Well, I'm sorry that you find everyone elses take on the lore as ignorance.
But alas, I do not care, since you don't have hard evidence.

Other than a Qunari survived in a cage for 20 days without food and water.... Sten was trying to kill himself in there, so he probably didn't eat of drink anyhting in there. But this goes against your human supremacist views, so it isn't "hard evidence"....

[IanPolaris]

silentassassin264 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry but I am not.  You are conflating a vow of celebicy with religious vows in general.  Just because Templars don't have to take vows of celebacy does NOT mean they don't take religious vows.  We happen to know that they do, and celibacy is not a requirement to be a warrior-monk.  The requirement is taking a relgious vow of office, and we know that Templars are required to do this.

So you, my friend, are the one that is incorrect.

-Polaris

Except I am not.  Being a warrior-monk requires you to be a warrior and a monk.  Templars are not monks.  Monks are essentially priests/preacher/holy men that do not actually lead a congregation.  They just live a smiplistic life in religious devotion.  Templars are essentially what you would be if you were a teacher for a catholic school.  If you taught at a catholic school, you would have to do Catholic religious rites, mass, at least publicly acknowledge the pope as his holiness, etc. etc. but you are not a part of the Church.  Templars have absolutely no part in the Chantry heirarchy.  They do not preach, teach, run Chantries, or anything remotely close to what a monk would do.  The say prayers, or the chant rather, like would be obligated of a Catholic school teacher and that is it.  Their "religious" vows are essentially swearing to uphold the Chantry just like any US Soldier swears to protect the United States.  The only warrior-monk shown for the Chantry in this game in Sebastian.  

Templars DO have a place in Chantry hiearchy as sort of a parallel order.  If that were not so, then Meridith would not have had any legal standing to issue her annulment order, but WoG is very clear that she did as the highest ranking CHANTY official available.  Also the game makes it very clear both in DAO and elsewhere that being a Templar is a *religious* office that comes with religious vows.

That makes them monks and that means you are simply wrong.

-Polaris

[XCelfa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No.
It's a game. That's the sole reason Stan can immediately stand and fight.
It wouldn't be fun to wait for him to recover from his ordeal. The same reason why we don't spend a week in a  inn aafter a difficult fight, with half hte party crippled.

It still serves to prove the Qunari physiology is superior. Particularly since Sten even comments on it himself. But now I see what the others have ben saying about you ignoring lore when it doesn't serve your purposes.

Well, I'm sorry that you find everyone elses take on the lore as ignorance.
But alas, I do not care, since you don't have hard evidence.

Other than a Qunari survived in a cage for 20 days without food and water.... Sten was trying to kill himself in there, so he probably didn't eat of drink anyhting in there. But this goes against your human supremacist views, so it isn't "hard evidence"....

I was trying to ignore you two, but this gave me a nice chuckle. Are you really arguing about who's more fortitudinous?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That was not the real reason. The real reason was the ever-increasing blood mage activity, and Meredith was already contemplating annuling the Circle.
Anders just gave Meredith the opening she needed.

But Anders wasn't part of the circle, so his behaviour should have been irrelevant to that decision.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That was not the real reason. The real reason was the ever-increasing blood mage activity, and Meredith was already contemplating annuling the Circle.
Anders just gave Meredith the opening she needed.

But Anders wasn't part of the circle, so his behaviour should have been irrelevant to that decision.

It was. Except that thanks to him killing everyone within reach who outranks her, Meredith now has the legal authority, and an incredibly tenous additional reason she can cite to people who don't think her real reason justifies her actions.

[LobselVith8]

XCelfa wrote...

You know.... while it wouldn't be cool to be forced into supporting the Templars, I really hope there's more Templar-sympathetic quests in this game. I feel as if we didn't see enough from their perspective in DAII. They've always worn the mantle of oppressor.

They tried and failed in Dragon Age II. The developers said the depiction of mages in Dragon Age II was a response to how they thought people sided with mages "by default." It's why we saw a plethora of insane and stupid mages, like Decimus thinking that Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and Anders were templars. It would have been better to write mages and templars as three-dimensional characters, like we saw in Origins.

[XCelfa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XCelfa wrote...

You know.... while it wouldn't be cool to be forced into supporting the Templars, I really hope there's more Templar-sympathetic quests in this game. I feel as if we didn't see enough from their perspective in DAII. They've always worn the mantle of oppressor.

They tried and failed in Dragon Age II. The developers said the depiction of mages in Dragon Age II was a response to how they thought people sided with mages "by default." It's why we saw a plethora of insane and stupid mages, like Decimus thinking that Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and Anders were templars. It would have been better to write mages and templars as three-dimensional characters, like we saw in Origins.

Well, surprise, people still mostly side with mages.

[LobselVith8]

XCelfa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They tried and failed in Dragon Age II. The developers said the depiction of mages in Dragon Age II was a response to how they thought people sided with mages "by default." It's why we saw a plethora of insane and stupid mages, like Decimus thinking that Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and Anders were templars. It would have been better to write mages and templars as three-dimensional characters, like we saw in Origins.

Well, surprise, people still mostly side with mages.

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or a group they see as monstrous.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or a group they see as monstrous.

Unfortunately, a lot of people see the PC , who is usually noted to be an exceptional individual, as the base for their Mage.  The PC can easily deny a demon without problem.  The PC doesn't suffer from the maddening whisperings of demons or feel the temptation of power that comes from abuse of blood magic.  This, coupled with the popular excuse that a mage only did wrong because they were forced into a corner (or something along those lines), makes it hard for the Templar (men and women devoted to protecting mages from the masses and vice versa, who go as far as ingesting Lyrium to do so) to garner sympathy.  Then we have certain actions performed that many find disagreeable, regardless of how necessary they may be (removal of the mage from his or her family, Phylacteries).  Finally, some people just like to root for what they percieve to be the underdog. 

That the Seekers are bad at their job does not help matters.

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XCelfa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They tried and failed in Dragon Age II. The developers said the depiction of mages in Dragon Age II was a response to how they thought people sided with mages "by default." It's why we saw a plethora of insane and stupid mages, like Decimus thinking that Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and Anders were templars. It would have been better to write mages and templars as three-dimensional characters, like we saw in Origins.

Well, surprise, people still mostly side with mages.

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or a group they see as monstrous.

I think part of this is people letting their views of real life relgions effect their gaming views. 

Also what BlueMagitek said.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, I'm sorry that you find everyone elses take on the lore as ignorance.
But alas, I do not care, since you don't have hard evidence.

Other than a Qunari survived in a cage for 20 days without food and water.... Sten was trying to kill himself in there, so he probably didn't eat of drink anyhting in there. But this goes against your human supremacist views, so it isn't "hard evidence"....

No, Stens story is not hard evidence.
For one, you can't prove he didn't eat or drink anything (food I cna even belive - but drink?)
For another, every inconcistency can be explained by simple gameplay > fluff, thus making his abiltiy to fight right out of the cage pointless. Characters have been at full fighting cvapacity even when near death in gmaes for decades.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That was not the real reason. The real reason was the ever-increasing blood mage activity, and Meredith was already contemplating annuling the Circle.
Anders just gave Meredith the opening she needed.

But Anders wasn't part of the circle, so his behaviour should have been irrelevant to that decision.

By "opening" I mean she was now the highest ranking official in Kirkwall.
No more Elthina to veto her RoA.Meredith may be crazy, but the decision to anull the Circle wasn't baseless.
The Cirlce and the town really were frakked up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XCelfa wrote...
Well, surprise, people still mostly side with mages.

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or a group they see as monstrous.

Well, thoise some people are unfortuanetly wrong in their postulations on the "horibleness" of circles.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ausstig wrote...
I think part of this is people letting their views of real life relgions effect their gaming views.

Oh, most definately.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

So Quanri are more like typical Trolls rather than typical Orks?!
I can't take their Physiology serious anymore!

[Urzon]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

So Quanri are more like typical Trolls rather than typical Orks?!
I can't take their Physiology serious anymore!

If anything, I would think that the racial Qunari were more like big grey Vulcans. You just replace logic with the Qun, and you have them.

Modifié par Urzon, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[frankf43]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XCelfa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They tried and failed in Dragon Age II. The developers said the depiction of mages in Dragon Age II was a response to how they thought people sided with mages "by default." It's why we saw a plethora of insane and stupid mages, like Decimus thinking that Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and Anders were templars. It would have been better to write mages and templars as three-dimensional characters, like we saw in Origins.

Well, surprise, people still mostly side with mages.

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or a group they see as monstrous.

I think part of this is people letting their views of real life relgions effect their gaming views. 

Also what BlueMagitek said.

Too ture I and I guess a lot of people don't like the religious fanatical overview of the Chantry and it's Templar order.  I will oppose them at every turn and if Bioware does not give me the option to oppose them then I simply wont play the game.

And as for seeing how the PC reacts to magic I've never played a mage.

I do think the religious overtones of the  games are what lost them a lot of followers I know people who brought the first one and said the game is just too preachy.

I know others who brought the second one and never finished it for the same reason.

Modifié par frankf43, 01 décembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[frankf43]

The destruction of the circle did not give Meredith the right to invoke the Right of Annulment. We see in DA:O Knight-Commander Greagoir was waiting for the order to come from the Chantry of Denerim. He did not have to power to invoke it himself.
 
Meredith was a criminal who broke the laws she was supposed to uphold at every single turn.
Making mages tranquil after their Harrowing.
Taking control of the city and murdering Nobles who spoke out against her
Invoking the Right of Annulment without direct orders from a Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

frankf43 wrote...
Too ture I and I guess a lot of people don't like the religious fanatical overview of the Chantry and it's Templar order.  I will oppose them at every turn and if Bioware does not give me the option to oppose them then I simply wont play the game.

Oh please... relgiious fanatical? That's something you glue to the templars.
I so hate it when people spreach secularism like some kind of holy grail that makes everything better. It doens't...except in the heads ofhte peopel who belive that.

"Templars are part of the Chantry so they MUST be fantacial zealots who hate mages and torture them for fun".
"The chantry villifies mages nad teacheseveryne to hate and fear them, that's the reason why commoners dont' like mages"

Even tough we clearly see that is not the case, people continue to spout these party lines like robots.

[Lotion Soronarr]

frankf43 wrote...

The destruction of the circle did not give Meredith the right to invoke the Right of Annulment. We see in DA:O Knight-Commander Greagoir was waiting for the order to come from the Chantry of Denerim. He did not have to power to invoke it himself.

Of course not - the Revered Mother was close and she was alive. He needed her consent.
 
The same does not apply for Meredith

[frankf43]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

frankf43 wrote...
Too ture I and I guess a lot of people don't like the religious fanatical overview of the Chantry and it's Templar order.  I will oppose them at every turn and if Bioware does not give me the option to oppose them then I simply wont play the game.

Oh please... relgiious fanatical? That's something you glue to the templars.
I so hate it when people spreach secularism like some kind of holy grail that makes everything better. It doens't...except in the heads ofhte peopel who belive that.

"Templars are part of the Chantry so they MUST be fantacial zealots who hate mages and torture them for fun".
"The chantry villifies mages nad teacheseveryne to hate and fear them, that's the reason why commoners dont' like mages"

Even tough we clearly see that is not the case, people continue to spout these party lines like robots.

 
I donot believe in secularism nore that all religion is fanatical, but this one in my view is. From the start of the very first story I have had a problem with the Chantry and no one will change my mind on it. It's views just leave me with an uneasy feeling in my stomach.

I don't believe that most of the modern religions are fanactical and religion has a place in mordern society, but any religion can give rise to a group of fanatics. the context of any religion can be twisted to give rise to fanatical preaching.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or group they see as monstrous.

I think part of this is people letting their views of real life religions effect their gaming views.

Very, very few of the arguments I see against the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars pertain to them simply being a religious order, while many of them focus on how they feel the Chantry has abused its position as a religious order to oppress and subjugate. I understand that not everyone has the same view on the Chantry or the templars, but I think it's incorrect to say that it's simply a matter of the Chantry and the templars being members of a religious order when it comes to the people who criticize the Chantry and the templars over the Dales or the fate of mages who are part of the Circles of Magi.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 décembre 2012 - 12:21 .