1297 réponses à ce sujet

[frankf43]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

The destruction of the circle did not give Meredith the right to invoke the Right of Annulment. We see in DA:O Knight-Commander Greagoir was waiting for the order to come from the Chantry of Denerim. He did not have to power to invoke it himself.

Of course not - the Revered Mother was close and she was alive. He needed her consent.
 
The same does not apply for Meredith

see how you left out the part where she murdered Nobles who spoke out against her. And not having a Revered Mother near does not give her the authority to invoke the right without the proper orders.

Even Cassandra said at the end of the game said,  "So all this is Meredith's fault?"

[Urzon]

It has been WoG'ed that the RoA was legal. Very very shady legal, but legal none the less. Where if she did survive, she would have been called in front of the Divine to explain herself.

When Anders bombed the Chantry he killed the Grand Cleric as well as anyone who would susceed her. Since the Grand Cleric was killed, as well as all the Mothers and all lower ranks, Meredith was left the highest ranking Chantry member in the Kirkwall area, and she used that new rank/power to be able to call an RoA on the Gallows.

Anders planned that, and it worked out just how he wanted.

The Ferelden case was different, since the Grand Cleric in the area was still alive, in Denerim

[LobselVith8]

The fact that it was legal for Meredith to order the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children for being mages should illustrate one of the serious problems that some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles, when an entire population of people can be condemned to death because the Knight-Commander wants to give in to the hypothetical mob.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The fact that it was legal for Meredith to order the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children for being mages should illustrate one of the serious problems that some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles, when an entire population of people can be condemned to death because the Knight-Commander wants to give in to the hypothetical mob.

The mob wasn't the reason. The reason was that the Circle was considered aloready lost and beyond saving by Meredith.

Oh, and there is always someone in power who can decide your fate.
Kirkwall is such an extreeme case, that to claim the entire system is flawed because if it is redicolous.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The mob wasn't the reason.

The hypothetical mob is the only reason Meredith provides to Hawke for why she wants to annul the Circle of Kirkwall. Her reason is, in her own words, because "the people will demand blood."

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The fact that it was legal for Meredith to order the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children for being mages should illustrate one of the serious problems that some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles, when an entire population of people can be condemned to death because the Knight-Commander wants to give in to the hypothetical mob.

Sorry, but if it was a Grand Cleric (or the Divine) who would've declared the RoA, wouldn't your reaction be the same as when Meredith declared it? It's  your problem that Meredith had the power to declare it, or the RoA in general (I think it'd be the latter, since you're pro-mage and your post indicates that you're not fond of the RoA)?
The RoA is legal by the Chantry law. The KC doesn't have the power to declare it, but it's obvious that in determinate circumstances the KC would be allowed to declare it. If you're against the RoA, it's ininfluent that Meredith had the power to declare after Elthina's death. You'd be against it even if Elthina approved of it, right?
Anyway, I don't think that Meredith ordered the Annulment because of the people's reaction. She wanted the Annulment long before The Last Straw. It's obvious that with Elthina gone, and a mage (even if that mage was NEVER part of the Kirkwall's Circle) responsible for the assassination, she would've declared the Annulment. Even if, for example, the people in Kirkwall were against the Chantry and were glad that Elthina was dead, Meredith would've declared the Annulment.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The mob wasn't the reason.

The hypothetical mob is the only reason Meredith provides to Hawke for why she wants to annul the Circle of Kirkwall. Her reason is, in her own words, because "the people will demand blood."

It's an obvious excuse. She wanted to Annulle the Circle for months. With Elthina (who she respected greatly) dead because of a mage, and the right to declare the Annulment, it's obvious she's ordered it.
As I said, even if the population was against the Chantry and hated Elthina and the templars and the clerics, she'd have declared the Annulment. Or do you think that in this case she wouldn't have declared it?

[IanPolaris]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The fact that it was legal for Meredith to order the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children for being mages should illustrate one of the serious problems that some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles, when an entire population of people can be condemned to death because the Knight-Commander wants to give in to the hypothetical mob.

Sorry, but if it was a Grand Cleric (or the Divine) who would've declared the RoA, wouldn't your reaction be the same as when Meredith declared it? It's  your problem that Meredith had the power to declare it, or the RoA in general (I think it'd be the latter, since you're pro-mage and your post indicates that you're not fond of the RoA)?
The RoA is legal by the Chantry law. The KC doesn't have the power to declare it, but it's obvious that in determinate circumstances the KC would be allowed to declare it. If you're against the RoA, it's ininfluent that Meredith had the power to declare after Elthina's death. You'd be against it even if Elthina approved of it, right?
Anyway, I don't think that Meredith ordered the Annulment because of the people's reaction. She wanted the Annulment long before The Last Straw. It's obvious that with Elthina gone, and a mage (even if that mage was NEVER part of the Kirkwall's Circle) responsible for the assassination, she would've declared the Annulment. Even if, for example, the people in Kirkwall were against the Chantry and were glad that Elthina was dead, Meredith would've declared the Annulment.

My position regarding the RoA is unchanged and longstanding.  I consider it genocide (and that DOES have meaning within the game per DAA).  Therefore I consider any Rite of Annulment to be wrong in that sense regardless of technical legality.

That said, what Meredith pulled was especially dodgy since the reason the Right of Annulment requires Grand Cleric approval (where most things are done on the Knight Commander level) is to provide at least some clerical oversight.  The fact that Meredith got around this is particularly troublesome....and Anders or no Anders, I think it was only a matter of time before Meredith would have had Ethina killed herself using deniable assets given what we now know is the 'legality' and that possibility is also troubling (at least to the circles).  [I would find it troubling.]

-Polaris

[frankf43]

Well she's not someone i'll have to worry about again since I went Vendetta and Assassinate combo on here worthless hide:)

[The Elder King]

IanPolaris wrote...


My position regarding the RoA is unchanged and longstanding.  I consider it genocide (and that DOES have meaning within the game per DAA).  Therefore I consider any Rite of Annulment to be wrong in that sense regardless of technical legality.

That said, what Meredith pulled was especially dodgy since the reason the Right of Annulment requires Grand Cleric approval (where most things are done on the Knight Commander level) is to provide at least some clerical oversight.  The fact that Meredith got around this is particularly troublesome....and Anders or no Anders, I think it was only a matter of time before Meredith would have had Ethina killed herself using deniable assets given what we now know is the 'legality' and that possibility is also troubling (at least to the circles).  [I would find it troubling.]

-Polaris

I could agree that Meredith could've killed Elthina after some times. During Act 3, the lyrium statue/Sword made Meredith paranoid and more extremist, though she continued to respect Elthina. If the statue would've continued to influence Meredith, it's possible that it'd have led Meredith to think that Elthina was a traitor or something similar. But if Elthina died, unless Meredith succeded to blame the mages for her death,  I don't know if she would have the right to order the RoA. We know that the KC has the power to declare the RoA in Kirkwall's situation, but we don't know if a KC can always have this right if the Grand Cleric dies for old age, of for other reason. The highest ranking Mother in the Chantry could take over for the time being, while the Divine appoints the new Grand Cleric.
Anders'a action removed all the clerics of the Chantry leaving no Chantry officials other than the templars one. In this situation the KC has the right to declare it. So if Meredith had Elthina been killed in some, maybe she wouldn't have the power to declare the RoA.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Sorry, but if it was a Grand Cleric (or the Divine) who would've declared the RoA, wouldn't your reaction be the same as when Meredith declared it? It's  your problem that Meredith had the power to declare it, or the RoA in general (I think it'd be the latter, since you're pro-mage and your post indicates that you're not fond of the RoA)?
The RoA is legal by the Chantry law. The KC doesn't have the power to declare it, but it's obvious that in determinate circumstances the KC would be allowed to declare it. If you're against the RoA, it's ininfluent that Meredith had the power to declare after Elthina's death. You'd be against it even if Elthina approved of it, right?
Anyway, I don't think that Meredith ordered the Annulment because of the people's reaction. She wanted the Annulment long before The Last Straw. It's obvious that with Elthina gone, and a mage (even if that mage was NEVER part of the Kirkwall's Circle) responsible for the assassination, she would've declared the Annulment. Even if, for example, the people in Kirkwall were against the Chantry and were glad that Elthina was dead, Meredith would've declared the Annulment.

My position regarding the RoA is unchanged and longstanding.  I consider it genocide (and that DOES have meaning within the game per DAA).  Therefore I consider any Rite of Annulment to be wrong in that sense regardless of technical legality.

My opinion of the RoA is that while it's a really, really messed up step to take, there are situations bad enough that it can be preferable to the alternative. The problem is that Kirkwall wasn't one of them, and that Meredith should not have been put into a position where she has any influence over whether it was taken anywhere.

That said, what Meredith pulled was especially dodgy since the reason the Right of Annulment requires Grand Cleric approval (where most things are done on the Knight Commander level) is to provide at least some clerical oversight.  The fact that Meredith got around this is particularly troublesome....and Anders or no Anders, I think it was only a matter of time before Meredith would have had Ethina killed herself using deniable assets given what we now know is the 'legality' and that possibility is also troubling (at least to the circles).  [I would find it troubling.]

-Polaris

I never thought of that. But then, if I remember Gaider's post correctly, she'd have had to either kill every priest in easy reach so that nobody could succeed Elthina, or simply kill and kill and kill until one of them was on her side. Which would have been difficult to do while remaining undetected, and if she can't do that she'll get demoted, imprisoned, or possibly executed trying this.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 décembre 2012 - 03:28 .

[Xilizhra]

My opinion of the RoA is that while it's a really, really messed up step to take, there are situations bad enough that it can be preferable to the alternative. The problem is that Kirkwall wasn't one of them, and that Meredith should not have been put into a position where she has any influence over whether it was taken anywhere.

It might be theoretically possible, but we haven't seen any.

I never thought of that. But then, if I remember Gaider's post correctly, she'd have had to either kill every priest in easy reach so that nobody could succeed Elthina, or simply kill and kill and kill until one of them was on her side. Which would have been difficult to do while remaining undetected, and if she can't do that she'll get demoted, imprisoned, or possibly executed trying this.

It would never have been necessary. After a short enough period of time, Elthina would "reluctantly" concede to the Annulment. She and Meredith are still working together, she's just standing back outwardly.

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Sorry, but if it was a Grand Cleric (or the Divine) who would've declared the RoA, wouldn't your reaction be the same as when Meredith declared it? It's  your problem that Meredith had the power to declare it, or the RoA in general (I think it'd be the latter, since you're pro-mage and your post indicates that you're not fond of the RoA)?
The RoA is legal by the Chantry law. The KC doesn't have the power to declare it, but it's obvious that in determinate circumstances the KC would be allowed to declare it. If you're against the RoA, it's ininfluent that Meredith had the power to declare after Elthina's death. You'd be against it even if Elthina approved of it, right?
Anyway, I don't think that Meredith ordered the Annulment because of the people's reaction. She wanted the Annulment long before The Last Straw. It's obvious that with Elthina gone, and a mage (even if that mage was NEVER part of the Kirkwall's Circle) responsible for the assassination, she would've declared the Annulment. Even if, for example, the people in Kirkwall were against the Chantry and were glad that Elthina was dead, Meredith would've declared the Annulment.

My position regarding the RoA is unchanged and longstanding.  I consider it genocide (and that DOES have meaning within the game per DAA).  Therefore I consider any Rite of Annulment to be wrong in that sense regardless of technical legality.

My opinion of the RoA is that while it's a really, really messed up step to take, there are situations bad enough that it can be preferable to the alternative. The problem is that Kirkwall wasn't one of them, and that Meredith should not have been put into a position where she has any influence over whether it was taken anywhere.

I take my position from the UN definition of genocide.  The only time genocide can ever be justified is if it's a situation like the darkspawn (i.e. they survive or we do but not both).    The only situation that came even close to that was the Fereldan circle tower incident, and even then KC Gregoire exercised restraint.

That said, what Meredith pulled was especially dodgy since the reason the Right of Annulment requires Grand Cleric approval (where most things are done on the Knight Commander level) is to provide at least some clerical oversight.  The fact that Meredith got around this is particularly troublesome....and Anders or no Anders, I think it was only a matter of time before Meredith would have had Ethina killed herself using deniable assets given what we now know is the 'legality' and that possibility is also troubling (at least to the circles).  [I would find it troubling.]

-Polaris

I never thought of that. But then, if I remember Gaider's post correctly, she'd have had to either kill every priest in easy reach so that nobody could succeed Elthina, or simply kill and kill and kill until one of them was on her side. Which would have been difficult to do while remaining undetected, and if she can't do that she'll get demoted, imprisoned, or possibly executed trying this.

Not true (and this is where I continue to differ with Gaidar...and no he isn't infallible):  If that were true, then Meredithy would not have had the legal authority to declare an Anullment on her own hook.  While the bombing did indeed decapitate the Chantry's senior members (esp Elthina), there were several surviving Revered Mothers left (such as the Revered Mother of Starkhaven to name one and one close by at that!)

That being so, all Meredith would have had to do is arrange what Anders did:  Destroy the Chantry preferably by magical means.  Given her power and connections, it wouldn't be too hard to assassinate (and destroy) everyone in the Cathedral and make it look like someone else (esp given how poor a job "Sister Nightengale" was doing at keeping tabs on things).

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

My opinion of the RoA is that while it's a really, really messed up step to take, there are situations bad enough that it can be preferable to the alternative. The problem is that Kirkwall wasn't one of them, and that Meredith should not have been put into a position where she has any influence over whether it was taken anywhere.

It might be theoretically possible, but we haven't seen any.

Well, if the Warden wasn't basically invincible, Kinloch Hold would have qualified.

I never thought of that. But then, if I remember Gaider's post correctly, she'd have had to either kill every priest in easy reach so that nobody could succeed Elthina, or simply kill and kill and kill until one of them was on her side. Which would have been difficult to do while remaining undetected, and if she can't do that she'll get demoted, imprisoned, or possibly executed trying this.

It would never have been necessary. After a short enough period of time, Elthina would "reluctantly" concede to the Annulment. She and Meredith are still working together, she's just standing back outwardly.

I doubt it. I know you're not going to concede that Elthina might actually have everyone's best interests at heart, so here's this; My impression of the White Chantry is that they want to have mages around, they just want them under control. If they're annulling circles left and right, pretty soon they won't have anything left to fight the Tevinters with. I can't see that ending well when the Black Chantry finds out. Or the Qunari, for that matter. Iirc, the Qunari didn't lose to Thedas. They lost to the Circles. Not to mention that apparently mages are necessary for the Joining.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


It would never have been necessary. After a short enough period of time, Elthina would "reluctantly" concede to the Annulment. She and Meredith are still working together, she's just standing back outwardly.

In your opinion, based on your opinion about Elthina. Which isn't neither the right or wrong opinion about Elthina.
Meredith asked for the Annulment multiple times, and a "short enough period of time" probably passed between the first and the last request. There's no proof that Elthina would've change her mind.
Of course, she might have conceded the Annulment. Neither you or me have enough proof to say for certain what Elthina would've done. Both outcomes would've been possible. But it's not sure that she'd have conceded, unless you show me some proof about it.

[Xilizhra]

Well, if the Warden wasn't basically invincible, Kinloch Hold would have qualified.

The Warden is good, but not invincible, and nor are her companions. If four people (possibly three people and a dog) who aren't even templars can secure the place... of course, they have a mage healer with them, hint hint.

I doubt it. I know you're not going to concede that Elthina might actually have everyone's best interests at heart, so here's this; My impression of the White Chantry is that they want to have mages around, they just want them under control. If they're annulling circles left and right, pretty soon they won't have anything left to fight the Tevinters with. I can't see that ending well when the Black Chantry finds out. Or the Qunari, for that matter. Iirc, the Qunari didn't lose to Thedas. They lost to the Circles. Not to mention that apparently mages are necessary for the Joining.

Possibly, but I believe the Chantry would feel no sorrow about losing one Circle here and there, and the Kirkwall one is easy to scuttle and likely wouldn't hurt them much.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


My position regarding the RoA is unchanged and longstanding.  I consider it genocide (and that DOES have meaning within the game per DAA).  Therefore I consider any Rite of Annulment to be wrong in that sense regardless of technical legality.

My opinion of the RoA is that while it's a really, really messed up step to take, there are situations bad enough that it can be preferable to the alternative. The problem is that Kirkwall wasn't one of them, and that Meredith should not have been put into a position where she has any influence over whether it was taken anywhere.

I take my position from the UN definition of genocide.  The only time genocide can ever be justified is if it's a situation like the darkspawn (i.e. they survive or we do but not both).    The only situation that came even close to that was the Fereldan circle tower incident, and even then KC Gregoire exercised restraint.

If it weren't for the Warden, he would have annulled the Circle. The only reason he didn't is because another option presented itself, and that option worked.

That said, what Meredith pulled was especially dodgy since the reason the Right of Annulment requires Grand Cleric approval (where most things are done on the Knight Commander level) is to provide at least some clerical oversight.  The fact that Meredith got around this is particularly troublesome....and Anders or no Anders, I think it was only a matter of time before Meredith would have had Ethina killed herself using deniable assets given what we now know is the 'legality' and that possibility is also troubling (at least to the circles).  [I would find it troubling.]

-Polaris

I never thought of that. But then, if I remember Gaider's post correctly, she'd have had to either kill every priest in easy reach so that nobody could succeed Elthina, or simply kill and kill and kill until one of them was on her side. Which would have been difficult to do while remaining undetected, and if she can't do that she'll get demoted, imprisoned, or possibly executed trying this.

Not true (and this is where I continue to differ with Gaidar...and no he isn't infallible):  If that were true, then Meredithy would not have had the legal authority to declare an Anullment on her own hook.  While the bombing did indeed decapitate the Chantry's senior members (esp Elthina), there were several surviving Revered Mothers left (such as the Revered Mother of Starkhaven to name one and one close by at that!)

I don't think the Revered Mother of Starkhaven has any authority over Meredith. They're from separate... dioceses? Parishes? Whatever they are, I don't think the Revered Mother of Starkhaven has any control over this situation.

That being so, all Meredith would have had to do is arrange what Anders did:  Destroy the Chantry preferably by magical means.  Given her power and connections, it wouldn't be too hard to assassinate (and destroy) everyone in the Cathedral and make it look like someone else (esp given how poor a job "Sister Nightengale" was doing at keeping tabs on things).

-Polaris

Thus killing every priest in reach who would have been a suitable replacement?

[IanPolaris]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


It would never have been necessary. After a short enough period of time, Elthina would "reluctantly" concede to the Annulment. She and Meredith are still working together, she's just standing back outwardly.

In your opinion, based on your opinion about Elthina. Which isn't neither the right or wrong opinion about Elthina.
Meredith asked for the Annulment multiple times, and a "short enough period of time" probably passed between the first and the last request. There's no proof that Elthina would've change her mind.
Of course, she might have conceded the Annulment. Neither you or me have enough proof to say for certain what Elthina would've done. Both outcomes would've been possible. But it's not sure that she'd have conceded, unless you show me some proof about it.

My opinion of Ethlina is pretty much the same as Anders (and suprisingly apparently Meredith's as well).  She's a nice old woman who is too weak and completely unsuited to the hard responsibilities of being the Grand Cleric.  She's the sort of woman that likes to eat meat (i.e. benefit from the circle system and Chantry control over it), but can't stomache the idea of butchering a cow (doesn't know and doesn't want to know what is going on under her diocese and nominally under her responsibility).  That's why Elthina won't ever authorize a Right of Annulment (at least baring an extreme/Fereldan-like situation).  It forces her to take an actual stand, and I think Elthina would rather die than take an actual stand that could be criticized (and she does in the end).

I still think that if it wasn't Anders, Meredith herself would have arranged it probably by using apostate/mage catspaws for deniability.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if the Warden wasn't basically invincible, Kinloch Hold would have qualified.

The Warden is good, but not invincible, and nor are her companions. If four people (possibly three people and a dog) who aren't even templars can secure the place... of course, they have a mage healer with them, hint hint.

The fact remains that according to the lore, Greagoir's limitations here are just about right. Handling one or two abominations is roughly what you can expect, and pretty impressive compared to what most military forces in Thedas can do. Nor should one mage make much of a difference, especially against Uldred.

I doubt it. I know you're not going to concede that Elthina might actually have everyone's best interests at heart, so here's this; My impression of the White Chantry is that they want to have mages around, they just want them under control. If they're annulling circles left and right, pretty soon they won't have anything left to fight the Tevinters with. I can't see that ending well when the Black Chantry finds out. Or the Qunari, for that matter. Iirc, the Qunari didn't lose to Thedas. They lost to the Circles. Not to mention that apparently mages are necessary for the Joining.

Possibly, but I believe the Chantry would feel no sorrow about losing one Circle here and there, and the Kirkwall one is easy to scuttle and likely wouldn't hurt them much.

Then the only argument possible is that Elthina actually meant what she was saying about wanting the best for everyone, which you don't believe despite not having any real evidence she was double-talking. (Or, if you do, I'd like to hear it.)

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Warden is good, but not invincible, and nor are her companions. If four people (possibly three people and a dog) who aren't even templars can secure the place... of course, they have a mage healer with them, hint hint.

My Warden walked in his birthday suit to the top of Fort Drakon, junk proudly fluttering in the wind, and proceeded to beat the Archdemon into submission with his bare hands.
Nothing involving the Warden serves as a way to determine how others could deal with the situation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The Warden is good, but not invincible, and nor are her companions. If four people (possibly three people and a dog) who aren't even templars can secure the place... of course, they have a mage healer with them, hint hint.

My Warden walked in his birthday suit to the top of Fort Drakon, junk proudly fluttering in the wind, and proceeded to beat the Archdemon into submission with his bare hands.
Nothing involving the Warden serves as a way to determine how others could deal with the situation.

Did you use exploits, or was that just what the Warden is capable of according to intended limitations?

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


My position regarding the RoA is unchanged and longstanding.  I consider it genocide (and that DOES have meaning within the game per DAA).  Therefore I consider any Rite of Annulment to be wrong in that sense regardless of technical legality.

My opinion of the RoA is that while it's a really, really messed up step to take, there are situations bad enough that it can be preferable to the alternative. The problem is that Kirkwall wasn't one of them, and that Meredith should not have been put into a position where she has any influence over whether it was taken anywhere.

I take my position from the UN definition of genocide.  The only time genocide can ever be justified is if it's a situation like the darkspawn (i.e. they survive or we do but not both).    The only situation that came even close to that was the Fereldan circle tower incident, and even then KC Gregoire exercised restraint.

If it weren't for the Warden, he would have annulled the Circle. The only reason he didn't is because another option presented itself, and that option worked.

Nope.  Gregoire wasn't going to do anything without the Grand Cleric's approval.  He gave the Grey Warden his blessings, but if things went south, he could quite legitamently say that it was a Grey Warden thing and had nothing to do with the Chantry.

This is restraint (something that Meredith was never very good at).

That said, what Meredith pulled was especially dodgy since the reason the Right of Annulment requires Grand Cleric approval (where most things are done on the Knight Commander level) is to provide at least some clerical oversight.  The fact that Meredith got around this is particularly troublesome....and Anders or no Anders, I think it was only a matter of time before Meredith would have had Ethina killed herself using deniable assets given what we now know is the 'legality' and that possibility is also troubling (at least to the circles).  [I would find it troubling.]

-Polaris

I never thought of that. But then, if I remember Gaider's post correctly, she'd have had to either kill every priest in easy reach so that nobody could succeed Elthina, or simply kill and kill and kill until one of them was on her side. Which would have been difficult to do while remaining undetected, and if she can't do that she'll get demoted, imprisoned, or possibly executed trying this.

Not true (and this is where I continue to differ with Gaidar...and no he isn't infallible):  If that were true, then Meredithy would not have had the legal authority to declare an Anullment on her own hook.  While the bombing did indeed decapitate the Chantry's senior members (esp Elthina), there were several surviving Revered Mothers left (such as the Revered Mother of Starkhaven to name one and one close by at that!)

I don't think the Revered Mother of Starkhaven has any authority over Meredith. They're from separate... dioceses? Parishes? Whatever they are, I don't think the Revered Mother of Starkhaven has any control over this situation.

Not true.  According to the codex, Elthina is the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall, Starkhaven, and one other Freemarch city.    Even if that were not the case, there were plenty of Revered Mothers outside the Cathedral that had to have survived.  Not all Revered mothers are in the Cathedral at all times.  That's just silly.

That being so, all Meredith would have had to do is arrange what Anders did:  Destroy the Chantry preferably by magical means.  Given her power and connections, it wouldn't be too hard to assassinate (and destroy) everyone in the Cathedral and make it look like someone else (esp given how poor a job "Sister Nightengale" was doing at keeping tabs on things).

-Polaris

Thus killing every priest in reach who would have been a suitable replacement?

You are now adding in "suitable replacement" which is a legal hole that one can drive a truck through.  This is a large part of what made what Meredith did so bloody 'dodgy' legally whatever the letter of Chantry law might say.  There is no reason why Meredith couldn't have asked the Divine Herself for guidance...the circle was trapped on an island and the Templars controlled the harbor.  Those mages were going nowhere.  It wasn't an emergency until after Meredith decided to go on a mage-killing kick.   There wasn't even civil disorder until Meredith created it.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

The fact remains that according to the lore, Greagoir's limitations here are just about right. Handling one or two abominations is roughly what you can expect, and pretty impressive compared to what most military forces in Thedas can do. Nor should one mage make much of a difference, especially against Uldred.

I find this seriously doubtful. They could have at least made a stab at it; that's their duty, after all, not to just run away and wait for reinforcements to deal with the problem. If they could actually know it was too much for them to handle instead of just guessing, fine; they'd rescue some mages, at least.

Then the only argument possible is that Elthina actually meant what she was saying about wanting the best for everyone, which you don't believe despite not having any real evidence she was double-talking. (Or, if you do, I'd like to hear it.)

I don't believe it in the slightest. I don't believe for a minute that Elthina actually lacks power over Meredith; Meredith clearly still respects her, and if she was going too insane to keep to that, then Elthina should have gotten Leliana to investigate Meredith and see what was causing it. But I don't believe it's gotten to that point yet; Meredith would back off somewhat if Elthina told her too, and in fact did just that at the beginning of Act 3. I also believe that Elthina was tacitly allowing Petrice to engage in her schemes, or even not so tacitly; Petrice sounded extremely surprised and betrayed when Elthina let her hang at the end of Following the Qun, and Elthina seemed extremely unsurprised by Petrice's ensuing death (the qunari killing a mother would certainly inflame the population against the qunari, after all).

[The Elder King]

IanPolaris wrote...



My opinion of Ethlina is pretty much the same as Anders (and suprisingly apparently Meredith's as well).  She's a nice old woman who is too weak and completely unsuited to the hard responsibilities of being the Grand Cleric.  She's the sort of woman that likes to eat meat (i.e. benefit from the circle system and Chantry control over it), but can't stomache the idea of butchering a cow (doesn't know and doesn't want to know what is going on under her diocese and nominally under her responsibility).  That's why Elthina won't ever authorize a Right of Annulment (at least baring an extreme/Fereldan-like situation).  It forces her to take an actual stand, and I think Elthina would rather die than take an actual stand that could be criticized (and she does in the end).

I still think that if it wasn't Anders, Meredith herself would have arranged it probably by using apostate/mage catspaws for deniability.

-Polaris

To be fair, the Annulment should be declared only unders and extreme situation (or better, a situation that would lead to problem for the people outside of the Circle. That's probably why Elthina didn't conced it. She didn't think the situation was extreme/critical.
About Meredith murdering Elthina, I think it's possible if the statue influenced/corrupted her further. As Meredith was before the Last Straw, I don't think she'd have murdered Elthina.

[MisterJB]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The Warden is good, but not invincible, and nor are her companions. If four people (possibly three people and a dog) who aren't even templars can secure the place... of course, they have a mage healer with them, hint hint.

My Warden walked in his birthday suit to the top of Fort Drakon, junk proudly fluttering in the wind, and proceeded to beat the Archdemon into submission with his bare hands.
Nothing involving the Warden serves as a way to determine how others could deal with the situation.

Did you use exploits, or was that just what the Warden is capable of according to intended limitations?

Bring as many potions as you can, spend points in Constitution to survive the attacks of the Archdemon and the Darkspawn and be patient while your measly Strenght saps away Urthemiel's life. It's possible.