1297 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

frankf43 wrote...
But it was inevitable the the other Circle would not take the RoA of one of its circles for the act of an apostate without rebelling.
 
For years they lived by the mantra, yes this is hard but as long as we are resoanable so will they be.

Meredith's actions changed all that, the Circles can no longer to expect the Chantry to be fair and even-minded in its judgements.

This being the case the Circles had to rise up and defend themselves.

Wrong. Given all that was going on in Kirkwall, calling for the RoA wasn't redicolous.

Plenty of people would have declared the Circle beyond recovery.

Actually it pretty much was ridiculous.  Even Knight-Captain Cullen (no softie towards mages there!) was very troubled about the necessity of this RoA, and if KC Cullen doubts it, you can be sure that Meredith was on very shakey ground at best.

The point is the first enchanter in the end was willing to give into every one of Meredith's demands, the mages were isolated, and the Templars controlled the harbor.  There was no immediate danger.  Given that, there was plenty of time for the Divine and her Seekers to determine if the Kirkwall circle were really irredeemable.

Meredith didn't even bother.  The fact she used the act of one mage that wasn't even legally under the circle system to authorize a RoA would have had her swinging by her toenails if Meredith had lived.  Knight Inquistor Lambert would have seen to it! (If only to keep the meddling Divine out of Templar business!)

-Polaris

[esper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Against an entire horde of monsters, each of which is a rough match for a squad of templars according to the lore?

The codex entries here are very obviously wrong or exaggerated. Abominations can be that dangerous (see Uldred), but the vast majority aren't.

OR...gameplay balance.


.

That is no excuse. If abormination was so dangerous, then first thing they should let us do is fight less. The second thing is to make sure that each abormination are on a 'mini' boss level.

As it are bioware has me utterler convinced that the dangers of the average abormination is hyperbolde made by the people who wants the fear.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Against an entire horde of monsters, each of which is a rough match for a squad of templars according to the lore?

The codex entries here are very obviously wrong or exaggerated. Abominations can be that dangerous (see Uldred), but the vast majority aren't.

OR...gameplay balance.

I still think they should have tried to accomplish this via fewer abominations rather than weaker ones.

A lot of Chantry officials, and certainly most templars, see the lives of mages as something they can choose to do with as they wish. I don't believe she'd suffer much guilt.

Unsupported drivel.

I dunno. There's a disturbing large number of Chantry officials in-story who seem to prove the Stanford experiment relevant to Thedas.

[Dave of Canada]

Abominations are threats, they have gone on to say the game underplays how powerful they are and they're going to work on changing that in the next installment.

Universe-wise, the fact that a lone Abomination (who possessed an untrained child) killed almost a hundred people in a village before the Templar finally killed it is evidence enough.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 décembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

esper wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Against an entire horde of monsters, each of which is a rough match for a squad of templars according to the lore?

The codex entries here are very obviously wrong or exaggerated. Abominations can be that dangerous (see Uldred), but the vast majority aren't.

OR...gameplay balance.

That is no excuse. If abormination was so dangerous, then first thing they should let us do is fight less. The second thing is to make sure that each abormination are on a 'mini' boss level.

As it are bioware has me utterler convinced that the dangers of the average abormination is hyperbolde made by the people who wants the fear.

It is an excuse. We can argue if it's a good or bad one, but it happens ALL THE TIME in games.

Ever had a game made following a book/movie, and then realize that the balance is completely different?

For exmaple: Mortal Kombat vs. DC. Apprently superman is weaksauce and can't kill normal humans with 20 punches.

[esper]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Abominations are threats, they have gone on to say the game underplays how powerful they are and they're going to work on changing that in the next installment.

Universe-wise, the fact that a lone Abomination (who possessed an untrained child) killed almost a hundred people in a village before the Templar finally killed it is evidence enough.

And that was not an average abormination, but made by a quite powerfull demon who was even smart enough to not possess the child physically, but simply control him through the fade. Of the desire demons we have met she was one of the smarter.

If they wanted me to believe it was not hyperbole the least the gameplay could do was present them at desire demon level. They don't even bother to do that.

Which has led me to believe that eight out ten aborminaitons just result in the grotesque meat suit which is easy to kill. The game has to the tool gameplaywise to at least tell me that it should be dangerous. It doesn't use them.

[Dave of Canada]

I'm talking about Meredith's sister, she was an untrained mage who was kept secret and when the abomination took control, it killed 70 villagers (and it's parents) before the Templar could stop it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 décembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[Herr Uhl]

esper wrote...


And that was not an average abormination, but made by a quite powerfull demon who was even smart enough to not possess the child physically, but simply control him through the fade. Of the desire demons we have met she was one of the smarter.

He was referencing Meredith's sister. So it was an abomination.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The situation is not completely black and white.

What will happen with the mages after the war is won isn't black and white, no. However, I see the war itself as very black and white, or at least black and gray.

Actually, as I see it, the war itself is tied to what will happen after. Whichever faction wins the war will dictate the new system. So the war is just as colorful as the aftermath.

[esper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

esper wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Against an entire horde of monsters, each of which is a rough match for a squad of templars according to the lore?

The codex entries here are very obviously wrong or exaggerated. Abominations can be that dangerous (see Uldred), but the vast majority aren't.

OR...gameplay balance.

That is no excuse. If abormination was so dangerous, then first thing they should let us do is fight less. The second thing is to make sure that each abormination are on a 'mini' boss level.

As it are bioware has me utterler convinced that the dangers of the average abormination is hyperbolde made by the people who wants the fear.

It is an excuse. We can argue if it's a good or bad one, but it happens ALL THE TIME in games.

Ever had a game made following a book/movie, and then realize that the balance is completely different?

For exmaple: Mortal Kombat vs. DC. Apprently superman is weaksauce and can't kill normal humans with 20 punches.

As said in my  post abode. Da:o and da2 has grade in their enemies. If they wanted me to believe them to be a treath lorewise they could at the least move them from mook-level to mini-boss or at the least captain. They don't, thus it is a gameplay story mechanic I cannot take seriously.

[esper]

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...


And that was not an average abormination, but made by a quite powerfull demon who was even smart enough to not possess the child physically, but simply control him through the fade. Of the desire demons we have met she was one of the smarter.

He was referencing Meredith's sister. So it was an abomination.

I don't believe Meridiths words. She would use an hyperbole. And by act 3 where she tell the story believe it too.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is an excuse. We can argue if it's a good or bad one, but it happens ALL THE TIME in games.

Ever had a game made following a book/movie, and then realize that the balance is completely different?

For exmaple: Mortal Kombat vs. DC. Apprently superman is weaksauce and can't kill normal humans with 20 punches.

Soronnar's got the right of it here.
We just need to decide whether we are approaching the situation from a lore or gameplay standpoint.

[Xilizhra]

Auintus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The situation is not completely black and white.

What will happen with the mages after the war is won isn't black and white, no. However, I see the war itself as very black and white, or at least black and gray.

Actually, as I see it, the war itself is tied to what will happen after. Whichever faction wins the war will dictate the new system. So the war is just as colorful as the aftermath.

This'd make the aftermath black and white too. No matter what, the templars must fall.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The situation is not completely black and white.

What will happen with the mages after the war is won isn't black and white, no. However, I see the war itself as very black and white, or at least black and gray.

Actually, as I see it, the war itself is tied to what will happen after. Whichever faction wins the war will dictate the new system. So the war is just as colorful as the aftermath.

This'd make the aftermath black and white too. No matter what, the templars must fall.

And then who stops abuses from the mages? I remember one time I got you to concede that some of the more reasonable templars might be co-opted, what happened to that?

[Xilizhra]

And then who stops abuses from the mages? I remember one time I got you to concede that some of the more reasonable templars might be co-opted, what happened to that?

If they surrender and join my side, then they might be able to help. If they only stop fighting when it's clear they've been beaten, I won't see them as trustworthy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

And then who stops abuses from the mages? I remember one time I got you to concede that some of the more reasonable templars might be co-opted, what happened to that?

If they surrender and join my side, then they might be able to help. If they only stop fighting when it's clear they've been beaten, I won't see them as trustworthy.

You're going to need more than are strictly trustworthy. Of course, its not like you weren't going to need some sort of oversight program for them anyway.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

And then who stops abuses from the mages? I remember one time I got you to concede that some of the more reasonable templars might be co-opted, what happened to that?

If they surrender and join my side, then they might be able to help. If they only stop fighting when it's clear they've been beaten, I won't see them as trustworthy.

That just puts you as one among a collection of factions fighting for control of the mages' future. Hardly black and white from an outsider's perspective.

[Augustei]

Luckily if the Templars fall their ideals have been drilled into Thedosian society for nearly a thousand years and instead of the armys of Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra etc. going "Grats you beat the Templars, you have your freedom now" they will instead do the wise thing and commit to enforcing The Circle system or something similar to ensure the safety of their realms.

Oh but Ferelden's wont because Alistair will.... Be voted down in the landsmeet so they totally will =D

[Dave of Canada]

Alistair's dead. Long live Templar-King Cousland.

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Luckily if the Templars fall their ideals have been drilled into Thedosian society for nearly a thousand years and instead of the armys of Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra etc. going "Grats you beat the Templars, you have your freedom now" they will instead do the wise thing and commit to enforcing The Circle system or something similar to ensure the safety of their realms.

Oh but Ferelden's wont because Alistair will.... Be voted down in the landsmeet so they totally will =D

That depends how it works out.  I actually see Fereldan as being a pro-mage Haven and likely won't be touched much (at least directly) by the mage-templar war.  Unlike most places, in Fereldan, the crown is pretty openly pro-mage and is willing to go to bat (as much as any one state can).  Combine that with a very reasonable and level headed KC Gregoire, and a very reasonable First Enchanter (in Irving), and I easily see Fereldan going "Church of England" or even giving Divine Justina "sanctuary" but only if she as Divine modifies the way mages are treated (and that becomes a LOT easier now that the Templars have openly rebelled).

If King Alister keeps Fereldan out of the mage civil war, and especially if he, Irving, and Gregoire can come up with a human, workable solution that protects everyone while treating mages as human beings, then people will be lining up to kiss the king's feet.

Of all the groups most likely to side with mages, the nobility is the one to look for.

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

esper wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...


And that was not an average abormination, but made by a quite powerfull demon who was even smart enough to not possess the child physically, but simply control him through the fade. Of the desire demons we have met she was one of the smarter.

He was referencing Meredith's sister. So it was an abomination.

I don't believe Meridiths words. She would use an hyperbole. And by act 3 where she tell the story believe it too.

Why would she make it up? It's clear that you're supporting her, before she even tells you this. No need for hyperbole to persuade you into doing her bidding.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[TCBC_Freak]

About abominations. They are also weaker when they first enter the real world and most we fight are only just coming into the world. It's clear in the lore that they are confused when they first arrive, but as time goes on they start to access more of their power. This is why boss abominations like Sophia and Uldread are more dangerous even for the uber-heroes Warden and Hawke. You can also see this will justify why Justice in DA:A levels up like the PC and why Wynne's spirit takes time to manifest and be helpful, also Cole's situation is evidence of this and it is a key point in Asunder.

[frankf43]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]Against an entire horde of monsters, each of which is a rough match for a squad of templars according to the lore?[/quote]
The codex entries here are very obviously wrong or exaggerated. Abominations can be that dangerous (see Uldred), but the vast majority aren't.[/quote]

OR...gameplay balance.


[quote]
A lot of Chantry officials, and certainly most templars, see the lives of mages as something they can choose to do with as they wish. I don't believe she'd suffer much guilt. [/qutoe]

Unsupported drivel.
[/quote]

then just have us fight against one powerful Abomination rather than ten, four pride deamons and eighty shades and still win easily.

[frankf43]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Luckily if the Templars fall their ideals have been drilled into Thedosian society for nearly a thousand years and instead of the armys of Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra etc. going "Grats you beat the Templars, you have your freedom now" they will instead do the wise thing and commit to enforcing The Circle system or something similar to ensure the safety of their realms.

Oh but Ferelden's wont because Alistair will.... Be voted down in the landsmeet so they totally will =D

The only action of the General Publics reaction to mages is the people in Low Town being willing to stand up to Hawke when they thought you were going to hand him over to the Templars.

Its amazing how quickly the common folk would come around if you offfer them free medi care.

[Todd23]

I'm fighting for the mages side full throttle. After all those who stand against us are crushed. I'll deal with the evil ones in are ranks.