1297 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Becoming a Harvester is not really a spell that I would expect to find in "Blood Magic for Dummies". That spell has to require more foreknowledge than simply slitting you wrist for the first time.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Covering up for a serial killer is working with them. 

And if he hadn't used Blood Magic at all until that very moment (and you're assuming we can trust his word when we know he hides his connection to serial killers), I wouldn't expect a Harvester (something new and made under very strange conditions back in Golemns of Angarrak) to be the first thing that would come to mind.

[Plaintiff]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Becoming a Harvester is not really a spell that I would expect to find in "Blood Magic for Dummies". That spell has to require more foreknowledge than simply slitting you wrist for the first time.

Assuming Orsino had any clue what would happen.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Yes, it needs the templars to be purged and the mages to be assessed, perhaps, but preferably after the war is over. I suspect that we'll need blood magic to win.

[Vandicus]

Plaintiff wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Becoming a Harvester is not really a spell that I would expect to find in "Blood Magic for Dummies". That spell has to require more foreknowledge than simply slitting you wrist for the first time.

Assuming Orsino had any clue what would happen.

You don't just say a cantrip wrong and out pops a Harvester. 

[silentassassin264]

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Actually they aren't.  In order to be a blood mage, you have to make a deal/speak with demons.  You can't read a book (Awakenings lol) on how to cut yourself and get demonic powers.  [Normal] Mages can't go into the fade at will and there was no demon in that room so Orsino had to made a deal with a demon prior and had been a blood mage for a while.  Also, as others have mentioned, becoming a Harvester is not some basic or even intermediate blood magic spell.  He wasn't just covering for Quentin.  He was conspiring with Quentin.

[Herr Uhl]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Actually they aren't.  In order to be a blood mage, you have to make a deal/speak with demons.  You can't read a book (Awakenings lol) on how to cut yourself and get demonic powers.  [Normal] Mages can't go into the fade at will and there was no demon in that room so Orsino had to made a deal with a demon prior and had been a blood mage for a while.  Also, as others have mentioned, becoming a Harvester is not some basic or even intermediate blood magic spell.  He wasn't just covering for Quentin.  He was conspiring with Quentin.

You can have someone that isn't a demon teach you. Like Quentin.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Yes, it needs the templars to be purged and the mages to be assessed, perhaps, but preferably after the war is over. I suspect that we'll need blood magic to win.

Meredith does need to be removed, yes, but the blood mages, and those that associate with them, need to be dealt with.

And to be honest, given some of the flimsy reasons for RoAs in the past, it wouldn't be all that strange for one to happen at Kirkwall. 

[Plaintiff]

Vandicus wrote...

You don't just say a cantrip wrong and out pops a Harvester. 

Orsino didn't say any spell, he just cut his hand open.

The Harvesters at Amgarrak were created by accident, and seeing as how there is no indication in DA2 that anyone even knew they existed, I don't see how Orsino could've posssibly become one on purpose.

[BlueMagitek]

Vandicus wrote...

You don't just say a cantrip wrong and out pops a Harvester. 

Perhaps Orsino was actually a Wild Mage and one of his spells went horribly wrong? 

[Vandicus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

You don't just say a cantrip wrong and out pops a Harvester. 

Orsino didn't say any spell, he just cut his hand open.

The Harvesters at Amgarrak were created by accident, and seeing as how there is no indication in DA2 that anyone even knew they existed, I don't see how Orsino could've posssibly become one on purpose.

It was an accident in the sense that they did not intend to let loose a wild Fade spirit. It was intentional in the sense that the design of creating a Fade spirit powered flesh golem worked. 

Its also still not something done by a novice blood mage, otherwise this would have happened with mages who simply became desperate and resorted to untrained blood magic. Presumably the action of sealing a Fade Spirit in a body requires some degree of knowledge of blood magic in the first place. 

[Flurdt Vash]

Vandicus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

You don't just say a cantrip wrong and out pops a Harvester. 

Orsino didn't say any spell, he just cut his hand open.

The Harvesters at Amgarrak were created by accident, and seeing as how there is no indication in DA2 that anyone even knew they existed, I don't see how Orsino could've posssibly become one on purpose.

It was an accident in the sense that they did not intend to let loose a wild Fade spirit. It was intentional in the sense that the design of creating a Fade spirit powered flesh golem worked. 

Its also still not something done by a novice blood mage, otherwise this would have happened with mages who simply became desperate and resorted to untrained blood magic. Presumably the action of sealing a Fade Spirit in a body requires some degree of knowledge of blood magic in the first place. 

Even in the into for Amgarrak it is said that the "Dwarves and a Mage from Tevinter (or a man of Tevinter) ... " with this in mind (and of cours with Fenris continuis brooding) a knowledge of Blood Magic is (to me) with out a doubt.

Modifié par Flurdt07, 02 décembre 2012 - 02:15 .

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how abhorrent some people view the Chantry controlled Circles to be, I don't think sympathetic templars will persuade people to support a system or group they see as monstrous.

I think part of this is people letting their views of real life religions effect their gaming views.

Very, very few of the arguments I see against the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars pertain to them simply being a religious order, while many of them focus on how they feel the Chantry has abused its position as a religious order to oppress and subjugate. I understand that not everyone has the same view on the Chantry or the templars, but I think it's incorrect to say that it's simply a matter of the Chantry and the templars being members of a religious order when it comes to the people who criticize the Chantry and the templars over the Dales or the fate of mages who are part of the Circles of Magi.

A lot of the agruments I  have seen for a 'better' circle, are very secular in nature. ie. the Chantry is evil, give it kings would be better. 

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find this seriously doubtful. They could have at least made a stab at it; that's their duty, after all, not to just run away and wait for reinforcements to deal with the problem. If they could actually know it was too much for them to handle instead of just guessing, fine; they'd rescue some mages, at least.

To be fair, Gregoir and his men did attempt to fight back IIRC. But since they were caught by surprise, much of their forces were decimated or under the control of Demons, so what help they could provide was severely limited without sufficient numbers to help stave off Abominations.

There's a mage emissary in camp regardless of whether the anullment went through.

He was Tranquil. That's different. And he could've been outside of the Circle at the time, as the Wonders of Thedas shop is a Circle-run facility operated by a Tranquil.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The Warden is good, but not invincible, and nor are her companions. If four people (possibly three people and a dog) who aren't even templars can secure the place... of course, they have a mage healer with them, hint hint.

My Warden walked in his birthday suit to the top of Fort Drakon, junk proudly fluttering in the wind, and proceeded to beat the Archdemon into submission with his bare hands.
Nothing involving the Warden serves as a way to determine how others could deal with the situation.

Must... do.... this.... next time.

[Auintus]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Becoming a Harvester is not really a spell that I would expect to find in "Blood Magic for Dummies". That spell has to require more foreknowledge than simply slitting you wrist for the first time.

Right. He said the ritual was in Quentin's research.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Becoming a Harvester is not really a spell that I would expect to find in "Blood Magic for Dummies". That spell has to require more foreknowledge than simply slitting you wrist for the first time.

Right. He said the ritual was in Quentin's research.

On a sort've tangential note, Quentin appears to be on the cutting edge of blood magic research. If the Tevinter Imperium gained access to his notes and designed a way to control these beings(like golem control rods) they would rapidly eradicate any opposition. A few slaves and a little blood and they've got a creature more fearsome than a golem. What's more they can use the remains from a battlefield to build more.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Covering up for a serial killer is working with them. 

And if he hadn't used Blood Magic at all until that very moment (and you're assuming we can trust his word when we know he hides his connection to serial killers), I wouldn't expect a Harvester (something new and made under very strange conditions back in Golemns of Angarrak) to be the first thing that would come to mind.

Oh...okay then.

Why would he lie at that point? What purpose would it serve?
He wanted something big. "I'm not giving up, I'm giving in." He was going out of his way to become the monster that Meredith saw. He knew the ritual from Quentin's notes and decided, "Hey, let's show her a real monster."

[Auintus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Actually they aren't.  In order to be a blood mage, you have to make a deal/speak with demons.  You can't read a book (Awakenings lol) on how to cut yourself and get demonic powers.  [Normal] Mages can't go into the fade at will and there was no demon in that room so Orsino had to made a deal with a demon prior and had been a blood mage for a while.  Also, as others have mentioned, becoming a Harvester is not some basic or even intermediate blood magic spell.  He wasn't just covering for Quentin.  He was conspiring with Quentin.

Um, no. Books work. That's why Irving has the books on blood magic removed from the Circle library. That's how Jowan learned blood magic. Demons and blood magic aren't intrinsicly linked.
He was not conspiring with him. Orsino says outright that he just covered it up so that Meredith wouldn't have any more ammunition against mages.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

On a sort've tangential note, Quentin appears to be on the cutting edge of blood magic research. If the Tevinter Imperium gained access to his notes and designed a way to control these beings(like golem control rods) they would rapidly eradicate any opposition. A few slaves and a little blood and they've got a creature more fearsome than a golem. What's more they can use the remains from a battlefield to build more.

 We are sooo screwed.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Actually they aren't.  In order to be a blood mage, you have to make a deal/speak with demons.  You can't read a book (Awakenings lol) on how to cut yourself and get demonic powers.  [Normal] Mages can't go into the fade at will and there was no demon in that room so Orsino had to made a deal with a demon prior and had been a blood mage for a while.  Also, as others have mentioned, becoming a Harvester is not some basic or even intermediate blood magic spell.  He wasn't just covering for Quentin.  He was conspiring with Quentin.

Um, no. Books work. That's why Irving has the books on blood magic removed from the Circle library. That's how Jowan learned blood magic. Demons and blood magic aren't intrinsicly linked.
He was not conspiring with him. Orsino says outright that he just covered it up so that Meredith wouldn't have any more ammunition against mages.

Orsino gave Quentin books on necromancy and was involved in the research. Would that be considered conspiring?

[TCBC_Freak]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Then we have an accord. ~_^

And Xil, when your First Enchanter is a blood mage (and working with serial killers) and there are a number of blood mages amongst your ranks, there is need for some form of cleansing. If not the RoA, then something else.

Knowing blood magic and using blood magic are two very different things. "Until this moment, I have never used blood magic." And he wasn't working with Quentin, just covering up after him to avoid giving Meredith more ammunition against the mages(still a grave error).

Covering up for a serial killer is working with them. {smilie}

And if he hadn't used Blood Magic at all until that very moment (and you're assuming we can trust his word when we know he hides his connection to serial killers), I wouldn't expect a Harvester (something new and made under very strange conditions back in Golemns of Angarrak) to be the first thing that would come to mind.

Also, if Bethany is part of the Circle and you side with the Templar then when the first showdown in the courtyard happens before the attack you can try and get her to come over to your side, you can tells from her expression and voice that she's torn. Then just when she starts to side with you, Orisino tells her not to and she goes all monotone and dead-eyed and changes her mind without a second glance. It's clear that he used mind control on her, the scene all but screams it.

You can say it was just a coincidence but as a writer I know when something is done on purpose.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
Covering up for a serial killer is working with them. 

And if he hadn't used Blood Magic at all until that very moment (and you're assuming we can trust his word when we know he hides his connection to serial killers), I wouldn't expect a Harvester (something new and made under very strange conditions back in Golemns of Angarrak) to be the first thing that would come to mind.

Oh...okay then.

Why would he lie at that point? What purpose would it serve?
He wanted something big. "I'm not giving up, I'm giving in." He was going out of his way to become the monster that Meredith saw. He knew the ritual from Quentin's notes and decided, "Hey, let's show her a real monster."

It is.  He was helping to prevent the authorities from finding and capturing him.  Alternatively, he was just a First Enchanter taking lessons on how to use Blood Magic (and doing it himself). 

Yes, but there's the entire experience thing.  If Orisino has never cast blood magic before, he manages to cast Transform: Harvester on his first try?  That thing isn't even on the Blood Magic spell tree and requires a wild spirit to bound!  I find it highly unlikely that worked on his first try.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

Orsino gave Quentin books on necromancy and was involved in the research. Would that be considered conspiring?

Woah, when did that happen?

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It is.  He was helping to prevent the authorities from finding and capturing him.  Alternatively, he was just a First Enchanter taking lessons on how to use Blood Magic (and doing it himself). 

Yes, but there's the entire experience thing.  If Orisino has never cast blood magic before, he manages to cast Transform: Harvester on his first try?  That thing isn't even on the Blood Magic spell tree and requires a wild spirit to bound!  I find it highly unlikely that worked on his first try.

Experience and capability aren't always one and the same. Practice helps, yes, but that ritual is a one-time thing. How would he practice something like that?
I don't think that the harvester was quite the same as the Golems version.