1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It ain't a cavity search FFS.
Search of a tower. Search of the mages rooms. PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED AND WARRANTED given all the blood mage activiy.
And Orsino throws a fit over that?
If I was in Merediths place I would have b***slapped the guy.

How is it justified?  Because there is blood Mage activity in the vicinity of Kirkwall?  Orsino doesn't find it justified because he doesn't see any evidence that there are blood mages within the Circle itself.  He also knows that Meredith will use any flimsy excuse she can find to execute or use tranquility on mages.  So yes he has plenty of reason not to want her conducting a search whether he has anything to hide or not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It ain't a cavity search FFS.
Search of a tower. Search of the mages rooms. PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED AND WARRANTED given all the blood mage activiy.
And Orsino throws a fit over that?
If I was in Merediths place I would have b***slapped the guy.

How is it justified?  Because there is blood Mage activity in the vicinity of Kirkwall?  Orsino doesn't find it justified because he doesn't see any evidence that there are blood mages within the Circle itself.  He also knows that Meredith will use any flimsy excuse she can find to execute or use tranquility on mages.  So yes he has plenty of reason not to want her conducting a search whether he has anything to hide or not.

Orsino is a moron.

Blood Mage activity is high, there are blood mages among the cirlce (we seen it ourselves) and you think it isn't justified?

Orsinos "if she finds something she will use it as an excuse to hound us all" is a HORRIBLE excuse because:
1) anyone can say that. For any search and for any reason. You can just as easily go "I won't allow the police to search my house because they can plant evidence" It's a blanket handwave to refuse any search...forver

2) refusing is also a great excuse for her to hound them all

[EmperorSahlertz]

In act III the mage udnerground has been rooted out, and they had connections within the Gallows, so the search of the tower is perfectly justifiable jsut on that note alone.

[Menagra]

Mary Kirby wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 This better not be the case... The one thing Bioware let us choose our stance on in DA2...

In every single conversation throughout the game, you will be forced to express your undying love of waffles.

No. No, you won`t.

But I sided with pancakes

[thibaut72]

There are always some people that forgot that a lot of mages began to use blood magic and became abomination because of Meredith and some other templars actions. Evelyna is a good exemple.

Even if Orsino is not a "good" guy, the rules are the same for everyone, mage or not, and you can't change them as your pleasure. When you are not an exemple for people, you can't ask to people to be perfect. It's not because you have some bad people in a group, that all group is bad (petrice is another exemple).

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It ain't a cavity search FFS.
Search of a tower. Search of the mages rooms. PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED AND WARRANTED given all the blood mage activiy.
And Orsino throws a fit over that?
If I was in Merediths place I would have b***slapped the guy.

They never clarify that. Besides, I'd be pissed if someone started digging through my things because of a few rogue mages.
I understand the templar point of view, but from the mages' side, they are being punished for the actions of a few.

[Auintus]

infraredman wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 This better not be the case... The one thing Bioware let us choose our stance on in DA2...

In every single conversation throughout the game, you will be forced to express your undying love of waffles.

No. No, you won`t.

But I sided with pancakes

Heathen! The great forces of waffles will ensure your submission!

[Shadow Fox]

thibaut72 wrote...

There are always some people that forgot that a lot of mages began to use blood magic and became abomination because of Meredith and some other templars actions. Evelyna is a good exemple.

Even if Orsino is not a "good" guy, the rules are the same for everyone, mage or not, and you can't change them as your pleasure. When you are not an exemple for people, you can't ask to people to be perfect. It's not because you have some bad people in a group, that all group is bad (petrice is another exemple).

And there are just as many who forget that a lot of mages also begin to use it because of temptation,jealousy,stupidity,arrogance or just because they see it as they're Maker given right to rule others.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It ain't a cavity search FFS.
Search of a tower. Search of the mages rooms. PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED AND WARRANTED given all the blood mage activiy.
And Orsino throws a fit over that?
If I was in Merediths place I would have b***slapped the guy.

They never clarify that. Besides, I'd be pissed if someone started digging through my things because of a few rogue mages.
I understand the templar point of view, but from the mages' side, they are being punished for the actions of a few.

If there was any chance you were conencted to a crime, the police would also search through your things. It isn't a punishment, it is a safety measure.

[thibaut72]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And there are just as many who forget that a lot of mages also begin to use it because of temptation,jealousy,stupidity,arrogance or just because they see it as they're Maker given right to rule others.

No, they are a (very) minority. The majority of mages follow Andraste's teaching (and not the Chantry's). Don't forget this mages are a challange for the player. I also saw a lot of mages who didn't use blood magic and fight Hawke, as templars, Carta's member and Qunari. Everywhere and everytime, you always have people who fight for their freedom.

It's not easy to have an impartial vision of all the story, and after everyone can put a level of the injustice. As i m against mages who use their gift to rules others, i m also against templars who abuse their power to rule. It's the difference between a military order (where you follow the order without thinking if it's good or bad) and a social order (where you act for all, even the minorities).

It's easy to focus on the deviants and create a distinction between humans. But we are all humans. Mages have a gift, but they remain humans. You can judge someone if he did something wrong, but not because he can do something ; if you do it, we are all guilty !

[thibaut72]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If there was any chance you were conencted to a crime, the police would also search through your things. It isn't a punishment, it is a safety measure.

In a majority of "free" countries, you need have evidences (and not presumption) and the Court need to allow the police to do it, or only with the acceptence of the suspect.
In the case of Kirkwall, before Elthina's death, Meredith (police) need Elthina's order (the Court) or the agreement of Orsino (suspect).

[Flurdt Vash]

No one was innocent in DA2, Issi was fully responsible for the Qunnari invasion, Meredith and Orsino were doing all they could to tare each other apart <_<, Elthia was adamant to remain neutral no matter the coast, Anders went psycho after Awakenings and Hawk was just a tool for both sides . All in all, there were just to many volatile personalities for Kirkwall not to explode .

Modifié par Flurdt07, 03 décembre 2012 - 12:15 .

[thibaut72]

Flurdt07 wrote...

No one was innocent in DA2, Issi was fully responsible for the Qunnari invasion, Meredith and Orsino were doing all they could to tare each other apart <_<, Elthia was adamant to remain neutral no matter the coast, Anders went psycho after Awakenings and Hawk was just a tool for both sides . All in all, there were just to many volatile personalities for Kirkwall not to explode .

That's a good analysis !

[EmperorSahlertz]

thibaut72 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If there was any chance you were conencted to a crime, the police would also search through your things. It isn't a punishment, it is a safety measure.

In a majority of "free" countries, you need have evidences (and not presumption) and the Court need to allow the police to do it, or only with the acceptence of the suspect.
In the case of Kirkwall, before Elthina's death, Meredith (police) need Elthina's order (the Court) or the agreement of Orsino (suspect).

There was evidence of the Circle having connections to the mage underground, so Meredith was fully in her rights to order the search.

[Heimdall]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Orsino is a moron.

Blood Mage activity is high, there are blood mages among the cirlce (we seen it ourselves) and you think it isn't justified?

Orsinos "if she finds something she will use it as an excuse to hound us all" is a HORRIBLE excuse because:
1) anyone can say that. For any search and for any reason. You can just as easily go "I won't allow the police to search my house because they can plant evidence" It's a blanket handwave to refuse any search...forver

2) refusing is also a great excuse for her to hound them all

Alright.

But does Meredith have any evidence?  I don't care what we know, I care what she knows.

1) This proves nothing.  You do realize we are dealing with the queen of paranoia and hatred for mages here, right?  It's not a horrible excuse because Meredith, with her temperament, is extremely likely to kill one Mage for being associated with blood magic and make tranquil another dozen for sleeping in the same dormitory.  It's an extremely valid concern, don't pretend it isn't.

2) But without proof she can do nothing, so what?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 03 décembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It ain't a cavity search FFS.
Search of a tower. Search of the mages rooms. PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED AND WARRANTED given all the blood mage activiy.
And Orsino throws a fit over that?
If I was in Merediths place I would have b***slapped the guy.

They never clarify that. Besides, I'd be pissed if someone started digging through my things because of a few rogue mages.
I understand the templar point of view, but from the mages' side, they are being punished for the actions of a few.

Well, the problem is, the few rogue mages amongst them can cause a whole lot more problems for them (see the Ferelden Circle).  And, if there was evidence that Anders' faction was working in the Circle (as I believe was alluded to earlier), that should be sufficient reason for a simple room sweep.

[ConquererJim]

I was a blood mage who used my powers all the time. In public. I even supported the templars in getting rid of other mages so that I would be the supreme magic user in Kirkwall. Hell, I even got to be viscount. In my opinion, the templars and chantry put a blood mage on the throne. They had it coming.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there was any chance you were conencted to a crime, the police would also search through your things. It isn't a punishment, it is a safety measure.

...On what are they basing this connection?

[TCBC_Freak]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If there was any chance you were conencted to a crime, the police would also search through your things. It isn't a punishment, it is a safety measure.

...On what are they basing this connection?

Are you asking for a hypothetical reason that hypothetical police might search your hypothetical things because you are connected to a hypothetical crime? I'll give one, why not.

Lets say your brother robs a bank, he's still in hiding and you honestly don't know where. The cops come to your home and you tell them as much, that you are home alone and haven't seen him that day. As they are leaving they hear a noise, sounds like someone in you upstairs attic. That's probable cause and they will search your whole house. Now let us say that he is up, there. He sneaked in and you didn't know, guess what? You're still getting arrested and you better hope your brother admits you didn't know and you have a good lawyer. How's that for freedom in action?

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 03 décembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[Auintus]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Are you asking for a hypothetical reason that hypothetical police might search your hypothetical things because you are connected to a hypothetical crime? I'll give one, why not.

Lets say your brother robs a bank, he's still in hiding and you honestly don't know where. The cops come to your home and you tell them as much, that you are home alone and haven't seen him that day. As they are leaving they hear a noise, sounds like someone in you upstairs attic. That's probable cause and they will search your whole house. Now let us say that he is up, there. He sneaked in and you didn't know, guess what? You're still getting arrested and you better hope your brother admits you didn't know and you have a good lawyer. How's that for freedom in action?

Yessss:D

My brother's not that stupid. I'm to paranoid for anything bigger than a small mouse to get into my house without me knowing.
Alright, alright, I'll play. We'll ignore the section on him actually being there, not really relevent for the metaphor.
Would they have a reason to search my house? Yes, for a living being, which would not involve rifling through anything and everything they choose. Not much like the Mage situation at all. All mages are suspected because some other mages went bad. No blood connection. No real reason to blame them all.
It's like searching the home of every member of The Holy Order of Jenova's Witnesses because one bombed a building. With a familial connection, it makes sense. With something as loose as magical capabilities, not so much.

Modifié par Auintus, 03 décembre 2012 - 02:12 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Auintus wrote...

Yessss{smilie}

My brother's not that stupid. I'm to paranoid for anything bigger than a small mouse to get into my house without me knowing.
Alright, alright, I'll play. We'll ignore the section on him actually being there, not really relevent for the metaphor.
Would they have a reason to search my house? Yes, for a living being, which would not involve rifling through anything and everything they choose. Not much like the Mage situation at all. All mages are suspected because some other mages went bad. No blood connection. No real reason to blame them all.
It's like searching the home of every member of The Holy Order of Jenova's Witnesses because one bombed a building. With a familial connection, it makes sense. With something as loose as magical capabilities, not so much.

Touche.

Perhaps this then? You fit the description of the person who committed a crime, say, murder. They could search your home for the murder weapon and any evidence, such as bloody close or shoes that match foot prints they found.

It's flimsy I know, but it lacks the blood connection and is based solely on appearance and nothing you did, kind of how mages are not connected beyond all being mages. Sort of like the Templar checking all the mages in a Circle after finding a blood magic summoning circle in the basement, they'd check them all right?

[Auintus]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Touche.

Perhaps this then? You fit the description of the person who committed a crime, say, murder. They could search your home for the murder weapon and any evidence, such as bloody close or shoes that match foot prints they found.

It's flimsy I know, but it lacks the blood connection and is based solely on appearance and nothing you did, kind of how mages are not connected beyond all being mages. Sort of like the Templar checking all the mages in a Circle after finding a blood magic summoning circle in the basement, they'd check them all right?

Where did the description come from? On-site witnesses usually aren't very good descriptors. Too much adrenaline messing with perception. Heh, sorry.
But yeah, that's closer. I think it's more of basing the group on an individual. Like checking every black individual, or every gun-owner, based on the actions of a few. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Orsino is a moron.

Blood Mage activity is high, there are blood mages among the cirlce (we seen it ourselves) and you think it isn't justified?

Orsinos "if she finds something she will use it as an excuse to hound us all" is a HORRIBLE excuse because:
1) anyone can say that. For any search and for any reason. You can just as easily go "I won't allow the police to search my house because they can plant evidence" It's a blanket handwave to refuse any search...forver

That's why it's just good sense to refuse all police searches unless they have a warrant.

[TEWR]

And, if there was evidence that Anders' faction was working in the Circle (as I believe was alluded to earlier), that should be sufficient reason for a simple room sweep.

By Act 3, Anders is working alone. Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground, and those who survived turned to blood magic -- and Anders hates blood mages and does not want to work with them. The only one he'll work with is Merrill, and he despises even that.

Plus, the Mage Underground was composed of apostates and civilians rescuing more Circle Mages -- thus making them apostates, where it's unfair to punish the Circle Mages even more for the actions of apostates. Especially since the Mages were driven to escape from the Circle because of the increasingly harsh treatment.

Continuing harsh measures when that was the very reason people escaped is just going to continue the cycle.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And, if there was evidence that Anders' faction was working in the Circle (as I believe was alluded to earlier), that should be sufficient reason for a simple room sweep.

By Act 3, Anders is working alone. Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground, and those who survived turned to blood magic -- and Anders hates blood mages and does not want to work with them. The only one he'll work with is Merrill, and he despises even that.

Plus, the Mage Underground was composed of apostates and civilians rescuing more Circle Mages -- thus making them apostates, where it's unfair to punish the Circle Mages even more for the actions of apostates. Especially since the Mages were driven to escape from the Circle because of the increasingly harsh treatment.

Continuing harsh measures when that was the very reason people escaped is just going to continue the cycle.

Having your room searched is not a harsh measure.  It may be seen as harsh here, but in Thedas, that's less than a slap on the wrist.  That Meredith needs permission from the First Enchanter to do it is baffling as well, if I am to believe some.  

But that isn't the point.  If there was evidence that the Mage  Underground had a contact inside the Circle, it is Meredith's duty to investigate it.  That would almost certainly include an investigation of the mage's quarters.