1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

Second, Meredith's annulment was illegal. The Divine didn't authorize it.

No, according to Gaider she had the legal authority. The Divine would have come down on Meredith for abusing this authority had Meredith lived, but with Elthina's office unfilled, Meredith's office came with the legal power to do it.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yes they should have striked.

Which would have accomplished...nothing.
So, basically, your stance is that thinking things are bad but not changing them in any way is enough to be worthy of living? Therefore, the priests in the Chantry did not deserve to die.
Nevermind the fact that the Circle is necessary, of course, and nowhere near as bad a punishment as most pro-mages try to make it seem.

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.  Yes they should have striked.  If they still wanted to be Andrastian, they should have separated from the Chantry in Orlais and done the right thing like how Martin Luther founded Protestantism.  They did not.  They are therefore guilty of supporting slavery.

Whether something is right or wrong is up to ones own opinion and really depends on the victor in any conflict, peaceful or otherwise. Hitler, for example, thought that Jews were bad and that killing them was the right thing to do. If he won who knows what the popular view of what is right and wrong would be today. Of course there will always be people who disagree with the popular world view (You can never kill an idea). That's really what I think DA3 will be about, winning this conflict between the mages and the Templars and shaping the Thedas' view of right and wrong.

Also, what Gaider say does matter. He is, of course, the lead writer of this fictional world we are arguing about.

[Warden661]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

How long had she had it by Act III? I've only ever read the wikia on DA2, so I'm not 100% on the timeline. Anyway, I'd just assumed she'd tried for the Annulment over one of the several year long timeskips, hence that "wanted to for years" argument.

There are three year gaps in between the acts and I want to say the acts are close to a year long themselves. Meredith bought the idol from Bartrand in act 2 ( maybe a little while before act 2). I assume that she had it made into a sword not long after act 2, exactly when I don't know. So I can't say for sure but I think she's had the thing for at least a couple years before act 3 and of course all of act 3 as well. The only thing I know for a fact is that she had it for at least act 3. I could be wrong but I do think the Idol is to blame for her Extremist behavior.

Modifié par BoBear, 19 novembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Except I got my definiton from Merriam Webster dictionary and you got your definition from thin air.  Also, it doesn't matter what David Gaider thinks.  This is the same guy who initially ignored the can we be atheist in the game by saying that they never had that option in any game and weren't going to put it in DAI before people gleefully poured in evidence to the contrary.  Gaider is fallible.

Wikipedia, actually.
And I gave you examples of rights mages have and how their treatment compares to other practices we don't consider slavery. Which you chose to not approach.
Gaider is fallible but he is right in this. the Circle is not slavery.

And your reasoning for Meredith is exacltly why the Chantry should be destroyed.  They spent preaching how mages are evil so when one mage who had nothing to do with the circle blew up the Chantry, average Kirkwallers would be demanding blood from all mages as to opposed to THE GUY WHO DID IT.  When you have made a system where a whole group of people can be "legitimately" targeted because of the actions of one person, you are are doing it wrong.

First, the Chantry preaches mages are dangerous, which they are, not evil. Their stance is "pity them for they are cursed" and not "hate them".
Second, Meredith's annulment was illegal. The Divine didn't authorize it.
Third, blaming the many for the actions of the few is a staple of mankind. It has happened millions of times in our history and will continue to happen again and again with out without religions.

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.

Limited people's right because they were born dangerous, just like our democracy does.
Do you believe the laws for owning 9mm guns and nuclear bombs should be the same?

1) I didn't address your issue because it is a non issue.  If the United States, everyone can have a gun unless it is an outlawed gun (for everyone) or you are individually deemed to be be incapable of having one due to mental illness or whatever.  In places like Britain, no one can have a gun.  The law is applicable to everyone.  That is not slavery.  Slavery is when it gets specific.  Namely, when some people have their liberty taken away.  By liberty I mean all there freedoms are subject to whims.  They have no guaranteed rights.  You have guaranteed rights more than likely if you are on this board.  No one can arbitrarily take away one of your rights without some due process or changing the law for everyone.

And no Gaider is not correct.

2. By your admission about the Kirkwallers demanding blood I would say you are wrong.  It may be doctrine that they are just merely dangerous but in practice they teach to fear them because they are evil. 

3. The Knight Commander has the right to the Rite of Annulment.  It was not illegally used.  The Divine does not  issue it.  Any time the Knight Commander feels the circle has gotten out of hand, they can do it.

4.  But it this case we have a religion that actively encourages that.  Stuff like the Spanish Inquisition will happen again without Renaissance Catholicism but Protestants curbing the Catholic power was very welcome.  There is no reason to support bad policy.

5. People are not born with 9mm or nukes.  If some people were born with Sith lightning bolts in the real world, I would expect them to be treated the same way the rest of us are.  Innocent until proven guilty.  When you use lightning bolts to commit crime, you lose your liberties and possibly life with due process like everyone else.  Pre-emptively taking away peoples rights because they could cause a crime is not justified.

[silentassassin264]

MisterJB wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yes they should have striked.

Which would have accomplished...nothing.
So, basically, your stance is that thinking things are bad but not changing them in any way is enough to be worthy of living? Therefore, the priests in the Chantry did not deserve to die.
Nevermind the fact that the Circle is necessary, of course, and nowhere near as bad a punishment as most pro-mages try to make it seem.

Way to ignore most of my post to get something out of context.  So I will just ignore the rest of yours.

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...
And no Gaider is not correct.

Some one phone David Gaider! Apparently he's wrong about the world he wrote!

[silentassassin264]

BoBear wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.  Yes they should have striked.  If they still wanted to be Andrastian, they should have separated from the Chantry in Orlais and done the right thing like how Martin Luther founded Protestantism.  They did not.  They are therefore guilty of supporting slavery.

Whether something is right or wrong is up to ones own opinion and really depends on the victor in any conflict, peaceful or otherwise. Hitler, for example, thought that Jews were bad and that killing them was the right thing to do. If he won who knows what the popular view of what is right and wrong would be today. Of course there will always be people who disagree with the popular world view (You can never kill an idea). That's really what I think DA3 will be about, winning this conflict between the mages and the Templars and shaping the Thedas' view of right and wrong.

Also, what Gaider say does matter. He is, of course, the lead writer of this fictional world we are arguing about.

You are right.  Morality is completely determined by the victor.  I sided with the mages so Anders won.  I suppose we could go all Schroedinger's cat but my game is likely different than yours so yeah.  

And no what Gaider says does not matter like that.  He was wrong before, he was wrong on this, and he can be wrong again.  If he writes something horribly distasteful like raping a desire demon to force it to tell you something and then says it is okay because it is a desire demon and not a person I am going to have to disagree.  He is free to have his opinion on matters but we have established definitions of words and concepts and if he wants to believe contrary to that, he can do it.  He would be wrong but he can do it.  By the dictionary, what the circle consists of is slavery.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

silentassassin264 wrote...

5. People are not born with 9mm or nukes.  If some people were born with Sith lightning bolts in the real world, I would expect them to be treated the same way the rest of us are.  Innocent until proven guilty.  When you use lightning bolts to commit crime, you lose your liberties and possibly life with due process like everyone else.  Pre-emptively taking away peoples rights because they could cause a crime is not justified.

It's a little more dangerous than Dark Side Lightning. In terms of destructive power, you can imagine it as certain people being born with cruise missles, (I used the plural on purpose) who are also at increased risk of suddenly and permanently losing their minds.  How would people like that be treated? I should think they'd merit at least some scrutiny.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
1) I didn't address your issue because it is a non issue.  If the United States, everyone can have a gun unless it is an outlawed gun (for everyone) or you are individually deemed to be be incapable of having one due to mental illness or whatever.  In places like Britain, no one can have a gun.  The law is applicable to everyone.  That is not slavery.  Slavery is when it gets specific.  Namely, when some people have their liberty taken away.

A system needs a lot more than specification to be considered slavery. Many laws in our world only apply to a certain percentage of the population. For instance, maternity laws. A new mother can take a leave from her job to take care of her child. The father has no such right. This happens because there is an intrisicate difference between the biology of a man and a woman.
It is easy to prove that there is an intrisicate difference between mages and mundanes. A difference that makes one group much, much more dangerous than the other.
Laws can be equally apllied to all if all are equals. Mages and mundanes are not equal and will never be. Thus, there must be laws specific to each group in order to preserve the well being of all, not just the mages.

By liberty I mean all there freedoms are subject to whims.  They have no
guaranteed rights.  You have guaranteed rights more than likely if you
are on this board.  No one can arbitrarily take away one of your rights
without some due process or changing the law for everyone.

My rigths are as much guaranteed as that of mages. No one can arbitrarily take away their rights without due process. If it happens, the templars are breaking the law.
A police officer can break the law as well.

And no Gaider is not correct.

You don't know more about the world of Thedas than its author.

2. By your admission about the Kirkwallers demanding blood I would say you are wrong.  It may be doctrine that they are just merely dangerous but in practice they teach to fear them because they are evil.

 
There is no practice here. The Chantry teachs that mages are dangerous and should be feared which is a fact.
Fear can easily lead to violence but the Chantry also shouldn't pretend there is nothing to fear regarding magic and mages.

3. The Knight Commander has the right to the Rite of Annulment.  It was not illegally used.  The Divine does not  issue it.  Any time the Knight Commander feels the circle has gotten out of hand, they can do it.

The Knight Commander has to request either the Grand Cleric or the Divine. Normally, only they have the power to declare it.
"Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to
prevent further incidents, granted all the grand clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable." Another example. In DAO, Gregor has to send word to Denerim requesting the Rite.

It can be temporarelly given to the KC but only in extreme cases such as the Grand Cleric being murdered by an apotaste.

4.  But it this case we have a religion that actively encourages that.  Stuff like the Spanish Inquisition will happen again without Renaissance Catholicism but Protestants curbing the Catholic power was very welcome.  There is no reason to support bad policy.

I'm not going to approach real world religions and politics.
I am however, going to say that telling the people to fear those who can kill them with their minds is neither a bad policy nor encouraging violence. It's only common sense.

5. People are not born with 9mm or nukes.  If some people were born with Sith lightning bolts in the real world, I would expect them to be treated the same way the rest of us are.  Innocent until proven guilty.  When you use lightning bolts to commit crime, you lose your liberties and possibly life with due process like everyone else.  Pre-emptively taking away peoples rights because they could cause a crime is not justified.

I am a good person, honest. Why is my right to own a firearm being pre-emptively taken away just because I might hurt someone?
My freedoms are limited exactly because I might commit a crime, not because I commited one. Since the mages have the potential to cause much greater destruction, their freedoms must be even more limited.
You can not look at a mage and a mundane and say they are equals. This is, objectivelly, not true. You are defending the right for people to own nuclear bombs and telling those who don't to trust they will never explode. This is ridiculously naive.

[silentassassin264]

Cruise missles would be an exaggeration. Mages have control of the elements to some degree, entropy and curses, and whatever spirit would be. They are dangerous but not even a rebelling circle could destroy an entire city. It also takes stamina (well mana or blood) to cast so it is not like they can sit there spamming power forever. And the best case scenario would be to integrate the superpowered people into society so you can have your Justice League on the side of good to work with and enforce the law rather than enslave everyone. I am not saying the superpowered people are not a threat but branding them all basically criminals for being born is expecting them to go rogue by doing the bullying a dragon trope. The proposed mutant registry in the X-Men movie for example, would be a good idea. I am not saying to ignore the potential threat but encouraging it with hostile policy is insane.

[MisterJB]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Way to ignore most of my post to get something out of context.  So I will just ignore the rest of yours.

I adressed the rest of your post in my previous one. I had simply forgotten this little thing and thus chose to create a new one.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...

BoBear wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Innocent people who supported a system that removed people's rights because they were born a wrong way.  Yes they should have striked.  If they still wanted to be Andrastian, they should have separated from the Chantry in Orlais and done the right thing like how Martin Luther founded Protestantism.  They did not.  They are therefore guilty of supporting slavery.

Whether something is right or wrong is up to ones own opinion and really depends on the victor in any conflict, peaceful or otherwise. Hitler, for example, thought that Jews were bad and that killing them was the right thing to do. If he won who knows what the popular view of what is right and wrong would be today. Of course there will always be people who disagree with the popular world view (You can never kill an idea). That's really what I think DA3 will be about, winning this conflict between the mages and the Templars and shaping the Thedas' view of right and wrong.

Also, what Gaider say does matter. He is, of course, the lead writer of this fictional world we are arguing about.

You are right.  Morality is completely determined by the victor.  I sided with the mages so Anders won.  I suppose we could go all Schroedinger's cat but my game is likely different than yours so yeah.  

And no what Gaider says does not matter like that.  He was wrong before, he was wrong on this, and he can be wrong again.  If he writes something horribly distasteful like raping a desire demon to force it to tell you something and then says it is okay because it is a desire demon and not a person I am going to have to disagree.  He is free to have his opinion on matters but we have established definitions of words and concepts and if he wants to believe contrary to that, he can do it.  He would be wrong but he can do it.  By the dictionary, what the circle consists of is slavery.

If you actually look at the history of the circles you would find that they are not meant to enslave mages. They are meant as a sanctuary to protect the outiside world from mages as well as mages from the outside world. The Templars were not put there to controll mages but to watch over them so they don't use their magic to take power like in Tevinter (where I would like to point out real slavery is LEGAL). The only reason mages are forced into the Circles is to learn how to control their power.The US government forces kids to go to school too. Yes they don't take away our ability to feel if we don't understand math but then again we don't have deamons trying to posses us 24/7. Mages in the circle have the right to learn how to control their power so they don't get made tranquil whereas slaves in Tevinter have no freedom to do anything, ever.

Now Tranquil mages are a different story, Gaider even says so. They don't have anymore will to do what they want so that could be seen as slavery. However, the Harrowing could also be seen as due process so taking away their rights in that manner could be argued.

So Besides living in the the Circle and  learning about magic, mages aren't forced to do any real work for the chantry. Yes the circle at Kirkwall was an extreme case were Templars abused their power but like Gaider said, it varies from Circle to Circle. So the mages in the circles have rights unlike slaves in Tevinter which have none. The Circle mages are not slaves. They aren't exactly free, but they're not slaves.

Edit: Gaider also said that this matter is up for opinion. He agrees that everyone has a right to think what they will about the circles. I tend to take what he says into account when I shape my opinion because, again, he's the lead writer which makes me confident that he knows what he's talking about when he says something about the DA universe.

Modifié par BoBear, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[silentassassin264]

Some southern slave owners treated their slaves pretty well even counting them as part of the family. Many were incredibly surprised when the slaves ran away or turned to the Union. It has something to do with basic human dignity. It doesn't matter how well you treat someone if they are treated like less of a human. A prize winning animal is still an animal. I hats typing on mobile devices.

[Dave of Canada]

Oh hey, a meta-gamer using real-world events to support their freedom of mages rather than creating any justifiable in-game reasoning. Big surprise.

[Warden661]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Some southern slave owners treated their slaves pretty well even counting them as part of the family. Many were incredibly surprised when the slaves ran away or turned to the Union. It has something to do with basic human dignity. It doesn't matter how well you treat someone if they are treated like less of a human. A prize winning animal is still an animal. I hats typing on mobile devices.

Fair point but Circle mages are not bought and sold unlike slaves in Tevinter and even slaves from our world. They are treated as a danger to Thedas because there is a danger they pose since they are born. Just because you are being treated like a danger doesn't make you a slave.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Cruise missles would be an exaggeration. Mages have control of the elements to some degree, entropy and curses, and whatever spirit would be. They are dangerous but not even a rebelling circle could destroy an entire city. It also takes stamina (well mana or blood) to cast so it is not like they can sit there spamming power forever. And the best case scenario would be to integrate the superpowered people into society so you can have your Justice League on the side of good to work with and enforce the law rather than enslave everyone. I am not saying the superpowered people are not a threat but branding them all basically criminals for being born is expecting them to go rogue by doing the bullying a dragon trope. The proposed mutant registry in the X-Men movie for example, would be a good idea. I am not saying to ignore the potential threat but encouraging it with hostile policy is insane.

Okay, maybe the cruise missle thing is a better description of abominations (the Codex describes them as being essentially walking natural disasters, and a number of the ones in-game qualify) than ordinary mages. But I don't see that you've addressed the argument that they can become abominations in yours. That is the main difference between a mutant and a mage, unless we're talking about Jean's Phoenix personality. I'd also like to point out that even Professor X thought that Phoenix was dangerous enough to abandon some of his moral principles regarding it. This is movie Professor X, too, as opposed to the (from what I understand) slightly amoral comics Professor X.

As for the idea that they could be something like the Justice League? Ideally, that is what the Circles would be. It never works exactly like that in practice, but they are meant to work with the government, the Chantry, and the Templar order. The Codex even states that templars bring them along when dealing with sufficiently powerful magical threats.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

silentassassin264 wrote...

 I hats typing on mobile devices.

Whereas me? I shoes it.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, a meta-gamer using real-world events to support their freedom of mages rather than creating any justifiable in-game reasoning. Big surprise.

It's a perfectly valid argument. The use of "in-game reasoning" is not required, this is not a roleplay.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, a meta-gamer using real-world events to support their freedom of mages rather than creating any justifiable in-game reasoning. Big surprise.

It's a perfectly valid argument. The use of "in-game reasoning" is not required, this is not a roleplay.

For what? For mages wanting freedom?
I am not surprised mages want freedom and power. I would want freedom and power were I in their position.

That doesn't affect the reasoning behind the Circle and the problem with using real world examples is that we never had to deal with magic or demons.
Quite frankly, the people of Thedas are far more lenient that I expected them to be. Were these things real in our world, I expect we would have commited genocide on the first week.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, a meta-gamer using real-world events to support their freedom of mages rather than creating any justifiable in-game reasoning. Big surprise.

It's a perfectly valid argument. The use of "in-game reasoning" is not required, this is not a roleplay.

For what? For mages wanting freedom?

Yes.

I am not surprised mages want freedom and power. I would want freedom and power were I in their position.

Okay.

That doesn't affect the reasoning behind the Circle and the problem with using real world examples is that we never had to deal with magic or demons.

It doesn't need to affect the reasoning of the CIrcle, the Circle is flawed regardless.

Yes we have. The Salem Witch Hunts were expressly a crusade against magic and demons. They did not actually exist, but that's completely beside the point. The people of Salem believed that they did.

Quite frankly, the people of Thedas are far more lenient that I expected them to be. Were these things real in our world, I expect we would have commited genocide on the first week.

And it would still be inexcusable. So what?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, a meta-gamer using real-world events to support their freedom of mages rather than creating any justifiable in-game reasoning. Big surprise.

It's a perfectly valid argument. The use of "in-game reasoning" is not required, this is not a roleplay.

For what? For mages wanting freedom?
I am not surprised mages want freedom and power. I would want freedom and power were I in their position.

That doesn't affect the reasoning behind the Circle and the problem with using real world examples is that we never had to deal with magic or demons.
Quite frankly, the people of Thedas are far more lenient that I expected them to be. Were these things real in our world, I expect we would have commited genocide on the first week.

Well, a specific enough analogy could be valid, whether taken from Real Life or from another fictional setting. (More likely a fictional setting.) As for the leniency... well, the first known human civilization, iirc, is ruled by mages. So maybe they tried or maybe they didn't, but either way the mages seemed to have proven themselves resistant to genocide. Then there was the Inquisition, which the fan consensus seems to hold was a scary, bigoted bunch. Even today in Thedas, there are probably people who would like to lynch any mage they find if it weren't for the difficulty in finding anyone dense enough to try putting the noose on. In fact, my impression is that that's part of the reason the Templars exist: to scare off anyone trying to lynch a mage.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
It doesn't need to affect the reasoning of the CIrcle, the Circle is flawed regardless.

No, it isn't. At least, not in the way you mean.

Yes we have. The Salem Witch Hunts were expressly a crusade against magic and demons. They did not actually exist, but that's completely beside the point. The people of Salem believed that they did.

Crusades against magic and demons in our world is idiotic.
In Thedas, where magic and demons are real, taking the necessary steps to protect the population from both is simply common sense.

And it would still be inexcusable. So what?

Credit where its due. The people of Thedas have acted much more humanely than we would have.

[Dabrikishaw]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, a meta-gamer using real-world events to support their freedom of mages rather than creating any justifiable in-game reasoning. Big surprise.

Haven't both sides become guilty of this?

[Warden661]

Fictional worlds are based on ideas from the real world, that's the only place we can get inspiration for our ideas from. So using real world events to help with your arguement against or for a situation in a fictional world is reasonable.

Modifié par BoBear, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:30 .