1297 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

There are also Mages and Templars telling us in-game that it is not as bad as some try to make it out to be....

All the mages who do so are Tranquil.

[TEWR]

No, there are a few non-Tranquil Mages -- well, really one. Most of the people that say it's not so bad are Tranquil, but not all of the ones that say so are.. 

However, that one is a staunch Loyalist.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, since a Tranquil would have a cold, and entirely ruled by logic, judgement of the entire situation, I would say that Tranquils' opinions also holds merit.
Still if you are going to use the ones complaining about the Gallows, then you must also acknowledge the ones who don't. Otherwise the entire argument is just biased bullcrap, which can't even be used as ferterlizer...

[Adanu]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, since a Tranquil would have a cold, and entirely ruled by logic, judgement of the entire situation, I would say that Tranquils' opinions also holds merit.
Still if you are going to use the ones complaining about the Gallows, then you must also acknowledge the ones who don't. Otherwise the entire argument is just biased bullcrap, which can't even be used as ferterlizer...

Tranquil are also beholden to the status quo, so telling people it is bad might incur Templar wrath.

I wouldn't trust someone like the Tranquil to say whetrher something is good or bad, since both notions are subjective opinion, and they are by nature objective.

[TEWR]

Well, since a Tranquil would have a cold, and entirely ruled by logic, judgement of the entire situation, I would say that Tranquils' opinions also holds merit.
Still if you are going to use the ones complaining about the Gallows, then you must also acknowledge the ones who don't. Otherwise the entire argument is just biased bullcrap, which can't even be used as ferterlizer.

Tranquil are supposed to follow orders. What if they're only saying it's nice because they're ordered to?

We have a few Tranquil also saying that they get beaten just for talking to civilians or if someone stole some wares from them.

The Tranquil get beaten.

That's like beating up the elderly. It's not right. They can't defend themselves. But aside from the Tranquil, we have non-Tranquil Mages saying the Gallows is crap. We have Templars saying the Gallows is crap.

[Daerog]

The Gallows is bad and has always been bad, it is the worst example of a Circle Tower... well, that we really know about anyway.

I would guess that Fereldan's Circle is a much better example of one, before the libertarians and blood mages decided to riot.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
... But aside from the Tranquil, we have non-Tranquil Mages saying the Gallows is crap. We have Templars saying the Gallows is crap.

... And there you go again....  We also got Mages and Templars saying that the Gallows AREN'T crap. So while I am more inclined to believe the ones complaining are closer to the truth, I am not about to accept the whining of some random mage as the absolute truth.

[TEWR]

Aside from the one Loyalist Mage in the courtyard, I can't think of any actual Mages or Templars that say the Gallows isn't crap.

[Lotion Soronarr]

How about Bethany? She seems to be content and sez as much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Of course. But I meant that once a Mage becomes an apostate, he's no longer tied to the Circle by his own being. If he still holds contacts in the Circle and is talking with them, that's another thing.

then those contacts in the Circles are collaborators and thus warrant an investigation.

There isn't anything implicating the Mage Underground as still having connections in the Circle. By Act 3, the remnants' priority is getting those that are already apostates out of Kirkwall, as they no longer have the leadership or manpower necessary to coordinate efforts into the Gallows to rescue more Mages.

There is EVERY evidence implicating there are blood mages in the Circle.
The search is fully justified and rational.

I'm not chastising him. I'm simply saying he does have an extreme view towards Mages during DAII -- which even the game cites as true, as it's the reason Meredith made him Knight-Captain. His views and experiences mirrored her own. Among Kirkwall's Templars, he's a moderate.
Outside, however, he's an extremist.

Cullen is a moderate, period.

The journal is explicitly written in a third person omniscient viewpoint, saying "You have been tasked with killing Meredith's deathsquad, consisting of Templar zealots she hand-picked to "purge" Mage-sympathizers".

Unless you have a dev stating that the journal is omniscent, this claim does not stand.
Third or first person is irrelevant.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Of Meredith calling for a search? She just wants an excuse to get the RoA granted to her. So long as Elthina was refusing, she was stuck trying to find something that would convince Elthina -- no matter what methods she needed to employ. Be it a search with no reasons to justify it, or appealing to the Divine, or whatever.

A search is a fine thing and one I'll back, provided the Templar suggesting it is of a mindset similar to Cullen or Gregoir and they're doing it for the right reasons, not so they can kill the Mages. Provided they make a good case for why they must do so and try to negotiate with the First Enchanter on why they must do so.

Got proof of that?
No?
Unless you do, then your oppinion is as worthless as a condome machine in Vatican.

In fact, most of your oppinions are, since you tend to assume and project far too much, without any actual evidence other than your own dislike for Meredith/Templars/Chantry.

[TEWR]

For all people who said "LOL your idea of Orsino being an unwitting accomplice is wrong", well... apparently Orsino says exactly that just before he offs himself if Bethany was alive.

And dying men do not tell lies, especially those who are about ready to kill themselves. They have nothing to gain by doing so and nothing left to live for.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How about Bethany? She seems to be content and sez as much.

Jesus Christ, a post on Mages and Templars made by Lotion worth responding to? Is hell frozen over? Are flying pigs out in the sky? 

My word, he's actually used events in-game to make a point. This is truly a momentous occasion.

Yes, Bethany is content living there, but she acknowledges it's a ****ty place. What she's content with is that she's living alongside "her people" -- as she calls them IIRC. But she also acknowledges that it's a horrible place IIRC.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bethany does not at all call the Gallows a horrible place...

[TEWR]

Well, she will say that it took her being locked up in the Gallows to understand the necessity of fighting for the Mages.

She will say that she doesn't believe that Mages being locked up for their powers -- which she sees as being Maker-given, something even some non-Mages share like Kester at Lake Calenhad -- is what Andraste or the Maker wanted.

Her own codex says that her support of the Circle system grows less and less with each day Meredith continues her oppression, as Bethany has seen the abuses that can happen when the Templars hold life-or-death power over the Mages.

So maybe not explicitly so will she condemn the Gallows, but she certainly doesn't view the idea of trapping Mages in the Circles -- and more so the Gallows -- as being something worth her support by the end of the game. She despises Meredith by the endgame, and will tell her outright that her insanity drove him to do what he did on a Pro-Templar path.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

By the endgame Meredith has also lost her mind to the idol. Doesn't change the fact that Bethany liked to live in the Gallows just fine for 5-6 years.

[TEWR]

For the Mages and the fact that she didn't have to look over her shoulder to study magic anymore. That she continued to live there doesn't mean she didn't take issue with it. Her own codex says she took issue with it, but enjoyed teaching the Mages.

You can call a place crap for some aspects but enjoy other aspects of it. For Bethany, she continuously views it as increasingly ****ty but always enjoys interacting with and teaching the other Mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And dying men do not tell lies, especially those who are about ready to kill themselves. They have nothing to gain by doing so and nothing left to live for.

Sez who?

Jesus Christ, a post on Mages and Templars made by Lotion worth responding to? Is hell frozen over? Are flying pigs out in the sky? 

My word, he's actually used events in-game to make a point. This is truly a momentous occasion.

And yet I still wait for such a monunmentus occasion to happen to you.
I feel I might die before I witness that.

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How about Bethany? She seems to be content and sez as much.

She doesn't stay content. Things deteriorate rather fast.

[iOnlySignIn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cullen is a moderate

For a Templar.

ZING

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:15 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And dying men do not tell lies, especially those who are about ready to kill themselves. They have nothing to gain by doing so and nothing left to live for.

Sez who?

It depends on the dying man, I suppose. But what reason does a dying man have to lie? Lying takes effort. Letting out a truth you had previously hidden, on the other hand, is easy, unless you are afraid that it will hurt you. Edit: And since he was doing what he did on the grounds that he didn't think the situation could get any worse, why would he care about that?

Jesus Christ, a post on Mages and Templars made by Lotion worth responding to? Is hell frozen over? Are flying pigs out in the sky? 

My word, he's actually used events in-game to make a point. This is truly a momentous occasion.

And yet I still wait for such a monunmentus occasion to happen to you.
I feel I might die before I witness that.

I can vouch for him, if you like.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, since a Tranquil would have a cold, and entirely ruled by logic, judgement of the entire situation, I would say that Tranquils' opinions also holds merit.
Still if you are going to use the ones complaining about the Gallows, then you must also acknowledge the ones who don't. Otherwise the entire argument is just biased bullcrap, which can't even be used as ferterlizer...

Tranquil are not logical. Removing emotion does not equate to "better logic".

Emotions are a chemical reaction to external stimuli. They are necessary information for decision-making, a faculty that the Tranquil barely possess, if they possess it at all.

The Tranquil are incapable of determining whether anything, the Circle system included, is 'good' or 'bad', as they are subjective moral judgements that are entirely tied to emotion.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Of Meredith calling for a search? She just wants an excuse to get the RoA granted to her. So long as Elthina was refusing, she was stuck trying to find something that would convince Elthina -- no matter what methods she needed to employ. Be it a search with no reasons to justify it, or appealing to the Divine, or whatever.

A search is a fine thing and one I'll back, provided the Templar suggesting it is of a mindset similar to Cullen or Gregoir and they're doing it for the right reasons, not so they can kill the Mages. Provided they make a good case for why they must do so and try to negotiate with the First Enchanter on why they must do so.

Got proof of that?
No?
Unless you do, then your oppinion is as worthless as a condome machine in Vatican.

In fact, most of your oppinions are, since you tend to assume and project far too much, without any actual evidence other than your own dislike for Meredith/Templars/Chantry.

Meredith was already trying to get the RoA, she just got rejected by Elthina on the grounds that the Rite wasn't justified. The second she has the legal authority to authorize it herself, she does so. In the interim, she tries to force a search of the tower looking for evidence of illegal activity. She was of course going to punish the mages involved, but do you really think she wasn't also going to use what she found to try and push harder for an anullment?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For the Mages and the fact that she didn't have to look over her shoulder to study magic anymore. That she continued to live there doesn't mean she didn't take issue with it. Her own codex says she took issue with it, but enjoyed teaching the Mages.

You can call a place crap for some aspects but enjoy other aspects of it. For Bethany, she continuously views it as increasingly ****ty but always enjoys interacting with and teaching the other Mages.

And yet she ENJOYED living in the Circle, so obviously it wasn't all that bad for her. All I am saying is that you really should stop using some random mage's comments as an absolute truth, when we got other mages stating the opposite.... So quit your excuses and accept that it is much more nuanced than what you are claiming.

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, since a Tranquil would have a cold, and entirely ruled by logic, judgement of the entire situation, I would say that Tranquils' opinions also holds merit.
Still if you are going to use the ones complaining about the Gallows, then you must also acknowledge the ones who don't. Otherwise the entire argument is just biased bullcrap, which can't even be used as ferterlizer...

Tranquil are not logical. Removing emotion does not equate to "better logic".

Emotions are a chemical reaction to external stimuli. They are necessary information for decision-making, a faculty that the Tranquil barely possess, if they possess it at all.

The Tranquil are incapable of determining whether anything, the Circle system included, is 'good' or 'bad', as they are subjective moral judgements that are entirely tied to emotion.

Emotions are NOT a neccesary part of decission making. It might be for a normal human being, but you can easily install process algorithms into a computer, notably emotionless objects, and have them make decissions based on multiple factors. It will be entirely ruled by whatever algorithms you have installed, and could very well come up with a result unfavorable for you, but it would be ruled by the logic you installed in it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, since a Tranquil would have a cold, and entirely ruled by logic, judgement of the entire situation, I would say that Tranquils' opinions also holds merit.
Still if you are going to use the ones complaining about the Gallows, then you must also acknowledge the ones who don't. Otherwise the entire argument is just biased bullcrap, which can't even be used as ferterlizer...

Tranquil are not logical. Removing emotion does not equate to "better logic".

Emotions are a chemical reaction to external stimuli. They are necessary information for decision-making, a faculty that the Tranquil barely possess, if they possess it at all.

The Tranquil are incapable of determining whether anything, the Circle system included, is 'good' or 'bad', as they are subjective moral judgements that are entirely tied to emotion.

Emotions are NOT a neccesary part of decission making. It might be for a normal human being, but you can easily install process algorithms into a computer, notably emotionless objects, and have them make decissions based on multiple factors. It will be entirely ruled by whatever algorithms you have installed, and could very well come up with a result unfavorable for you, but it would be ruled by the logic you installed in it.

I don't see how this is relevant, since the Tranquil display emotions on occasion, and that's how the Kirkwall Templars keep control. You can't beat a computer until it gives a different answer, which is why it can come up with a result unfavorable to you. A tranquil, on the other hand, can be beaten until it does what you want, which judging by the above posts is how the templars ensure the Tranquil watch their words around normals.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I sincerely doubt that a Tranquil ever display emotion, since they are specifically cut off from their emotion. What they do exhibit is a behavioral pattern reminicent of their previous life. Logic is not universal, and the Tranquil will follow what they thought logical before the Rite. However, while you can't beat a computer, a Tranquil still has nerve centers and can feel pain, so an easy why to teach a Tranquil what to do, and what not to do, is to apply pain. Since if the Tranquil is going to connect something uncomfortable as pain, to specific deeds, then the Tranquil won't keep doing said deed.