1297 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Yes.

The decrees of the state must give the people what they wish but only to a certain extent.
The danger mages pose is too great to give them the same freedoms of mundanes. Thus, we limit them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]That doesn't affect the reasoning behind the Circle and the problem with using real world examples is that we never had to deal with magic or demons.[/quote]
It doesn't need to affect the reasoning of the CIrcle, the Circle is flawed regardless. [/quote]

I remember a Codex set as a letter from the Grand Cleric of Starkhaven to one of the premier nobles (possibly a member of the Vael family, don't remember) admitting that the Circle is flawed. She lists the problem as more not being able to think of a better solution, since she's not a person of ill will herself and would act on any better solution she could think of. She also lists the problem with freedom for mages as the mages having enough power to basically force everyone else to bow their cruelest whims. Me? I think that's a big one, though not insurmountable if they are taught from basically Day One to... well, basically if their taught to act the way Malcom Hawke swore to act. The problem is that this requires some form of mandatory education, even if it doesn't require lifetime confinement.

The real problem, however, is as I've said several times, mages can turn into abominations. As MisterJB has noted, it really is hard to come up with a proper analogy for them, but I think my Phoenix analogy works as a description. And abominations are legitimately dangerous. Connor can end up wiping out Redcliffe, if you let him.
[/quote]

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:34 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
Crusades against magic and demons in our world is idiotic.

Says you.

Perception is everything. To the people of Salem, witches and demons were a real and credible threat. By your logic, their actions were perfectly justified. We can only pass judgement on them now, because we are secure in our superior "knowledge" that there are no witches or demons, and there never were.

In Thedas, where magic and demons are real, taking the necessary steps to protect the population from both is simply common sense.

Cruelly tearing people away from their families and subjecting them to emotional and physical abuse is far from necessary. In fact, from what we know about how demons work, it's actually harmful to the Circle's stated goal.

Credit where its due. The people of Thedas have acted much more humanely than we would have.

There is no credit due. You either behave humanely or you do not. "That guy over there is even worse than me" is not a defense.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Thedas, where magic and demons are real, taking the necessary steps to protect the population from both is simply common sense.

Cruelly tearing people away from their families and subjecting them to emotional and physical abuse is far from necessary. In fact, from what we know about how demons work, it's actually harmful to the Circle's stated goal.

Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Thedas, where magic and demons are real, taking the necessary steps to protect the population from both is simply common sense.

Cruelly tearing people away from their families and subjecting them to emotional and physical abuse is far from necessary. In fact, from what we know about how demons work, it's actually harmful to the Circle's stated goal.

Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

Forgive me if I don't put "Easier to murder children" in the Circle's woefully short 'pro' column.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Says you.

Perception is everything. To the people of Salem, witches and demons were a real and credible threat. By your logic, their actions were perfectly justified. We can only pass judgement on them now, because we are secure in our superior "knowledge" that there are no witches or demons, and there never were.

No amount of perception can justify the need to defend oneself from something that is not real and has no possibility of being real such as magic.
A better example would be the internment camps of japanese-americans. Something that I do believe was necessary at the time.

Cruelly tearing people away from their families and subjecting them to emotional and physical abuse is far from necessary. In fact, from what we know about how demons work, it's actually harmful to the Circle's stated goal.

Altough I suspect we would disagree on what constitutes as abuse, I can say that I do not see it as necessary.
Segregation and isolation are, however. I'm 100% in favor of, for instance, a group of both templars and mages who explain to newly discovered mages why they must be separated from their families with kind and logical words.
However, the separation must still be made.

There is no credit due. You either behave humanely or you do not. "That guy over there is even worse than me" is not a defense.

The world is not black and white, the behavior of humans can't be classified in such simplistic terms as "good and evil".

[MisterJB]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

A child is much less likely to become an abomination if they remain in the Circle, in fact. There they are taught how to resist the demons and if they begin to have nightmares, like Feynriel, they have Senior Enchanters nearby who can even enter the Fade to deal with the creatures and templar wards which I imagine help keep demons out.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:50 .

[silentassassin264]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]That doesn't affect the reasoning behind the Circle and the problem with using real world examples is that we never had to deal with magic or demons.[/quote]
It doesn't need to affect the reasoning of the CIrcle, the Circle is flawed regardless. [/quote]

I remember a Codex set as a letter from the Grand Cleric of Starkhaven to one of the premier nobles (possibly a member of the Vael family, don't remember) admitting that the Circle is flawed. She lists the problem as more not being able to think of a better solution, since she's not a person of ill will herself and would act on any better solution she could think of. She also lists the problem with freedom for mages as the mages having enough power to basically force everyone else to bow their cruelest whims. Me? I think that's a big one, though not insurmountable if they are taught from basically Day One to... well, basically if their taught to act the way Malcom Hawke swore to act. The problem is that this requires some form of mandatory education, even if it doesn't require lifetime confinement.

The real problem, however, is as I've said several times, mages can turn into abominations. As MisterJB has noted, it really is hard to come up with a proper analogy for them, but I think my Phoenix analogy works as a description. And abominations are legitimately dangerous. Connor can end up wiping out Redcliffe, if you let him.
[/quote][/quote]
My solution would be replace the current circles with just like a Police Station/School with mages and templars and each town/city along with the chantry (or attached to the Chantry).  Little mage childrens can get their education there and return home to their families after classes.  The Templars and Enchanters can work together to investigate and counteract magical crime.  Abominations will not be much of a threat with a team of Templars and Enchanters to deal with any demon problems (mana clash and holy smite for the win).  It would cause much less hostility if you were not pre-emptively taking people rights.  

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]silentassassin264 wrote...

 I hats typing on mobile devices.[/quote]

Whereas me? I shoes it.

[/quote]

I had to stop playing Skyrim to let you know how much I hats you.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

Forgive me if I don't put "Easier to murder children" in the Circle's woefully short 'pro' column.

I'd say it's not easier to murder a child abomination in the Circle then outside. Mages and/or templars would surely suffer wounds or be killed by the abomination. The "pro" in the situation would be that no civilian would be killed by the abomination. Which is a goal that should always be considered, regardless if you're pro-mage, pro-templar, pro-Chantry or neutral. Otherwise the mages (since you're pro-mage) will never gain their freedom. You can't expect common folks to not go against the mages if the mages doesn't have methods (like the Circles and the templars were for the Chantry system) for preventing abomination to annihilate a village.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
No amount of perception can justify the need to defend oneself from something that is not real and has no possibility of being real such as magic.

That's easy to say when you don't believe in magic.

A better example would be the internment camps of japanese-americans. Something that I do believe was necessary at the time.

Hahahahahahahaha.

Oh lord.

Altough I suspect we would disagree on what constitutes as abuse, I can say that I do not see it as necessary.

Luckily for all of us, you don't get to define what constitutes abuse.

Segregation and isolation are, however. I'm 100% in favor of, for instance, a group of both templars and mages who explain to newly discovered mages why they must be separated from their families with kind and logical words.
However, the separation must still be made.

There's no way to be "logical" about it, the argument for the Circle stems from a flawed premise.

Kind words are meaningless, the Circle should devote its energies to being kind in practice.

The world is not black and white, the behavior of humans can't be classified in such simplistic terms as "good and evil".

I never said it was. I was never talking about good and evil, I was talking about "humane" and "inhumane", which is a separate concept.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

A child is much less likely to become an abomination if they remain in the Circle, in fact. There they are taught how to resist the demons

Since when? I've never seen anything to suggest that this is the case. If anything, the Harrowing appears to be many mages' first and possibly only demonic encounter.

If mages are regularly encountering and repelling demons from a young age, then the Harrowing, along with many of the Circle's other preventative measures, are even more unnecessary than I've previously claimed.

and if they begin to have nightmares, like Feynriel, they have Senior Enchanters nearby who can even enter the Fade to deal with the creatures and templar wards which I imagine help keep demons out.

And yet if you send Feynriel to the Circle, it falls to a Dalish apostate to provide the ritual that will allow Hawke and friends to combat the demons harassing him. The Circle is no help there at all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

hhh89 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

Forgive me if I don't put "Easier to murder children" in the Circle's woefully short 'pro' column.

I'd say it's not easier to murder a child abomination in the Circle then outside. Mages and/or templars would surely suffer wounds or be killed by the abomination. The "pro" in the situation would be that no civilian would be killed by the abomination. Which is a goal that should always be considered, regardless if you're pro-mage, pro-templar, pro-Chantry or neutral. Otherwise the mages (since you're pro-mage) will never gain their freedom. You can't expect common folks to not go against the mages if the mages doesn't have methods (like the Circles and the templars were for the Chantry system) for preventing abomination to annihilate a village.

Well, every single mage in the country is there. A weak enough abomination might not even see a templar. Not to mention that it provides a priority target for the Templars to harden; instead of spreading forces all over the country, the Templars can just station their entire abomination killing force in a single tower, minus a few hunters and scouts to bring in or kill apostates. (I can only imagine they bring in backup where needed.)

Not to mention the argument that civilians are safer this way, which is a major plus.

[Plaintiff]

hhh89 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

Forgive me if I don't put "Easier to murder children" in the Circle's woefully short 'pro' column.

I'd say it's not easier to murder a child abomination in the Circle then outside. Mages and/or templars would surely suffer wounds or be killed by the abomination. The "pro" in the situation would be that no civilian would be killed by the abomination. Which is a goal that should always be considered, regardless if you're pro-mage, pro-templar, pro-Chantry or neutral. Otherwise the mages (since you're pro-mage) will never gain their freedom. You can't expect common folks to not go against the mages if the mages doesn't have methods (like the Circles and the templars were for the Chantry system) for preventing abomination to annihilate a village.

I don't really give a crap about the civilians of Thedas, since they're content to live in a society swarming with fifty different kinds of bigotry.

The writers have stated that they wanted the mages out of the Circles, simply for the sake of writing convenience, so I suspect that the mages are going to stay free regardless of how the populace feels about them.

[The Elder King]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Well, every single mage in the country is there. A weak enough abomination might not even see a templar. Not to mention that it provides a priority target for the Templars to harden; instead of spreading forces all over the country, the Templars can just station their entire abomination killing force in a single tower, minus a few hunters and scouts to bring in or kill apostates. (I can only imagine they bring in backup where needed.)

Not to mention the argument that civilians are safer this way, which is a major plus.

You should consider that the child mage could become an abomination when the templars aren't watching. He could then kill or harm people in the Tower. Of course, in a tower it'd be easier for the templars to find and kill him, but a child abomination outside the Circle would probably be easy to kill for a group of templars. What changes is that an abomination in a village unprotected could kill a lot more people than in the Circle (where mages and templars are a lot more prepared). Which is what I said that the pro/plus in my post.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

silentassassin264 wrote...


My solution would be replace the current circles with just like a Police Station/School with mages and templars and each town/city along with the chantry (or attached to the Chantry).  Little mage childrens can get their education there and return home to their families after classes.  The Templars and Enchanters can work together to investigate and counteract magical crime.  Abominations will not be much of a threat with a team of Templars and Enchanters to deal with any demon problems (mana clash and holy smite for the win).  It would cause much less hostility if you were not pre-emptively taking people rights.

One of the problems with this is that it involves untrained mages going back to their families. Mages should be allowed to do this, yes, but not before the Templars are pretty sure they won't turn abomination and develop a taste for civilians. Not to mention that it would be cheaper to build just one school, and easier to man it with templars. Other than this, I think this is a pretty interesting idea. Certainly having battlemages in every city to put down magical crime would be a nice touch.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

 I hats typing on mobile devices.

Whereas me? I shoes it.

I had to stop playing Skyrim to let you know how much I hats you.

I wanted to sarcastically respond to this, but I don't know of any article of clothing that starts with "L." (Well, one, but the name's too long and I'm not 100% on how to spell it. Edit: And it's somewhat creepier than I'm willing to get on this forum.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 novembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Not neccesarily. A child is more likely to become an abomination if they are forced to remain in the Circle; on the other hand, if they're in the Circle when it happens, they can more easily be neutralized.

Forgive me if I don't put "Easier to murder children" in the Circle's woefully short 'pro' column.

I'd say it's not easier to murder a child abomination in the Circle then outside. Mages and/or templars would surely suffer wounds or be killed by the abomination. The "pro" in the situation would be that no civilian would be killed by the abomination. Which is a goal that should always be considered, regardless if you're pro-mage, pro-templar, pro-Chantry or neutral. Otherwise the mages (since you're pro-mage) will never gain their freedom. You can't expect common folks to not go against the mages if the mages doesn't have methods (like the Circles and the templars were for the Chantry system) for preventing abomination to annihilate a village.

I don't really give a crap about the civilians of Thedas, since they're content to live in a society swarming with fifty different kinds of bigotry.

Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

The writers have stated that they wanted the mages out of the Circles, simply for the sake of writing convenience, so I suspect that the mages are going to stay free regardless of how the populace feels about them.

I hope we get to choose. I can't think of any two of my Wardens who made the exact same combination of important choices offhand, and that's part of the replayability of the game.

[Avatiach]

Mary Kirby wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 This better not be the case... The one thing Bioware let us choose our stance on in DA2...

In every single conversation throughout the game, you will be forced to express your undying love of waffles.

No. No, you won`t.

we still get the option to do so right? (i love waffles )

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
That's easy to say when you don't believe in magic.

And to believe in magic in our world is idiotic.

Luckily for all of us, you don't get to define what constitutes abuse.

And
luckily for all of us, those in power are more willing to make the hard
decisions than most Pro-Mages I've seen in these forums.

There's no way to be "logical" about it, the argument for the Circle stems from a flawed premise.

So you keep saying. It's still not true.

Kind words are meaningless, the Circle should devote its energies to being kind in practice.

Which I did not deny. You simply took it as an opportunity to spew more senseless hatred.

I
never said it was. I was never talking about good and evil, I was
talking about "humane" and "inhumane", which is a separate
concept.

Do I really need to explain how the concept of
treating someone in a compassionate manner can be interpreted in a
thousand different ways depending on the person?

Plaintiff wrote...
Since when? I've never seen anything to suggest that this is the case. If anything, the Harrowing appears to be many mages' first and possibly only demonic encounter.

If mages are regularly encountering and repelling demons from a young age, then the Harrowing, along with many of the Circle's other preventative measures, are even more unnecessary than I've previously claimed.

There is something called "studying the theory". Ever heard of it?
It's much better preparation than apostates who've never been in the Circle and whose parents are mundanes have.

And yet if you send Feynriel to the Circle, it falls to a Dalish apostate to provide the ritual that will allow Hawke and friends to combat the demons harassing him. The Circle is no help there at all.

The Circle under Meredith. The Circle under Greagoir performed an actual exorcism, a much more difficult operation.
That Connor was the son of a noble helped, of course.

I don't really give a crap about the civilians of Thedas, since they're
content to live in a society swarming with fifty different kinds of
bigotry.

Ah, so there is no point in continuing talking to you. Good to know.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...



I don't really give a crap about the civilians of Thedas, since they're content to live in a society swarming with fifty different kinds of bigotry.

The writers have stated that they wanted the mages out of the Circles, simply for the sake of writing convenience, so I suspect that the mages are going to stay free regardless of how the populace feels about them.

Our society if full of different kinds of bigotries, and millions (if not billions) of people live without rebelling. Should they all die?
Beside, you're talking like the common folks are living happy lifes. They're not. A lot of them struggle for living, and have to suffer their own injustices (by the nobles). How could they help mages, when they problems in their own lives?
Plus, by the logic of your post (and others in this threads), meaning people that live in a society full of injustices wthout rebelling=people who oppress mages, is the logic that lead to the Circle system after what happened with the Tevinter Imperium.
I'm not saying that mages will not be outside the Circles in the next games. I'm saying that conflicts will be present even if the mages gain their freedom, if method to prevent them for becoming abominations and abusing their magic. Which will happen again without methoda and rules. And will lead to a situation similar either to the Imperium or the Chantry.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 novembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

[Plaintiff]

hhh89 wrote...
Our society if full of different kinds of bigotries, and millions (if not billions) of people live without rebelling. Should they all die?

Possibly. The real question is: on what basis do you determine that we deserve to live?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

What.

[Wifflebottom]

Why do people keep creating threads asking the devs something about the game? They said they wouldn't say anything about it until 2013.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

What.

Are you confused?