1297 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

Wifflebottom wrote...

Why do people keep creating threads asking the devs something about the game? They said they wouldn't say anything about it until 2013.

I think this has long since devolved from asking the devs something (that wouldn't get answered) to another mage vs. templar debate...largely because of me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

What.

Are you confused?

Slightly. Though it's more that I can't think how else to react to that post. (Other than wondering if you're trolling, but no, I think you were probably serious.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...

Why do people keep creating threads asking the devs something about the game? They said they wouldn't say anything about it until 2013.

I think this has long since devolved from asking the devs something (that wouldn't get answered) to another mage vs. templar debate...largely because of me.

No, I think this question had already been answered.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

What.

Are you confused?

Slightly. Though it's more that I can't think how else to react to that post. (Other than wondering if you're trolling, but no, I think you were probably serious.)

I am serious. Worth is a human concept, and a subjective one at that. It only has meaning and relevance for as long as humans continue to exist. The universe doesn't care if we live or die. Or at least, there is no evidence that it cares.
 
The Circles are constructed to protect mundane society from the ravages of magic, so they are based on the assumption that mundane society deserves to be preserved. More than that, it assumes that mundanes are more deserving of preservation than mages are.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

After reading this I believe ethier you are trolling, stupid  or just a psychopath.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


Are you confused?

Slightly. Though it's more that I can't think how else to react to that post. (Other than wondering if you're trolling, but no, I think you were probably serious.)

I am serious. Worth is a human concept, and a subjective one at that. It only has meaning and relevance for as long as humans continue to exist. The universe doesn't care if we live or die. Or at least, there is no evidence that it cares.

One could argue that this makes it more important that we care. Not in terms of video game characters, of course, but in terms of actual people. If we don't adknowledge human worth, what incentive is there to keep the species around?

 
The Circles are constructed to protect mundane society from the ravages of magic, so they are based on the assumption that mundane society deserves to be preserved. More than that, it assumes that mundanes are more deserving of preservation than mages are.

The Circles also do a bit to preserve mages. They're as much a way to keep bigots out as to keep mages in. Besides, once a mage turns abomination, they become a danger to everyone. Not to mention that as bad as the White Chantry is, the Tevinter system is worse... oh, wait, forget it. My argument for this stems from life having value, which is merely subjective.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

So...the game make the player want to support Templar and become pro Templar, all the way to the end there is no reason to side Mages except Circle Mage is innocent and Meredith is wrong.

I can say developer want us to become pro Templar, and making us not seeing the truth in the end, because it is so little to see

One important thing to point out is that it's possible to be pro-Templar without liking the way the Circle is run under Mere-death. Bioware has done an excellent job of making magic dangerous enough to merit harsh restrictions, and an equally good job making the restrictions used more horrible than is neccesary.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[Melca36]

I will always be Pro Mage...

I don't think all mages are evil and I think mages should sign some sort of oath...if they want more freedom then they have to be willing to turn in (or kill if the need arises) mages who are evil

I wish mage haters would realize that mages are needed...

How many physicians are there in Thedas?

There are people who support mages.....you see it in the game. Not everyone hates them

[Mello]

Melca36 wrote...

I will always be Pro Mage...

I don't think all mages are evil and I think mages should sign some sort of oath...if they want more freedom then they have to be willing to turn in (or kill if the need arises) mages who are evil

I wish mage haters would realize that mages are needed...

How many physicians are there in Thedas?

There are people who support mages.....you see it in the game. Not everyone hates them

This.

[Warden661]

I will agree that the Circles of the Dragon Age are more, i guess we can use biggoted, then they were intended to be when they were created. I will not say that the abuse that some mages suffer under some Templars is justified because it's not. Although I will not say that mages deserve to live like the mundane. They are not mundane and you can't say they are just because they look like everyone else. They have Magic which makes demons stalk them constantly. If they are possessed then they are not only a danger to the mundane but other mages as well.

Whether a mage is good or bad doesn't matter in the big picture. The demons will try to possesse them regardless of their morals. Take Connor for example; he tried to do good but he was possessed by a demon. The real threat is the demons, not the mages. It's unfortunate, but true, that mages are like a gateway for demons to enter the world. So again they cannot live like the mundane.

Now should they be treated like a person? Yes. They are living creatures that have feelings. They are able to love, hate and laugh like everyone else. They should be treated with just as much respect as a mundane. But, again, they can't live like the mundane. There is only one place in Thedas where they can live like that and that and that is Tevinter, but there is no way you can say that the only slave owning country in all of Thedas is the way to go.

So in order to make sure that doesn't happen, the Templars are supposed to watch over them. However, some Templars have taken to very narrowed minded views on mages. They have become abusive and oppresive. They have strayed from their intended purpose. They have made the Circles even more imperfect than they already were.

This leads me to conclude that both sides are wrong. No, Templars can't use their power to abuse mages and treat them like dirt, this just adds more fuel to the fire that ignites mages' reasoning to use bloodmagic. Likewise mages can't use bloodmagic saying that it's their only option to fight for their rights, this just adds fuel to the fire that ignites Templars' reasoning to be abussive and oppressive.

I think Templars are neccessary but they abuse their power (Kirkwall's Circle for example). Mages are neccessary and they deserve to be treated like a person but they to have shown that they abuse power as well (Tevinter).

Modifié par BoBear, 20 novembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BoBear wrote...

This leads me to conclude that both sides are wrong. No, Templars can't use their power to abuse mages and treat them like dirt, this just adds more fuel to the fire that ignites mages' reasoning to use bloodmagic. Likewise mages can't use bloodmagic saying that it's their only option to fight for their rights, this just adds fuel to the fire that ignites Templars' reasoning to be abussive and oppressive.

It might be blood magic or dying. It's hard to fault a blood mage who chooses life in such a circumstance.

[Warden661]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BoBear wrote...

This leads me to conclude that both sides are wrong. No, Templars can't use their power to abuse mages and treat them like dirt, this just adds more fuel to the fire that ignites mages' reasoning to use bloodmagic. Likewise mages can't use bloodmagic saying that it's their only option to fight for their rights, this just adds fuel to the fire that ignites Templars' reasoning to be abussive and oppressive.

It might be blood magic or dying. It's hard to fault a blood mage who chooses life in such a circumstance.

I wouldn't fault them if it was in fact their only option. It's not however. They have other forms of magic that they can use. Forms that aren't forbiden.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BoBear wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BoBear wrote...

This leads me to conclude that both sides are wrong. No, Templars can't use their power to abuse mages and treat them like dirt, this just adds more fuel to the fire that ignites mages' reasoning to use bloodmagic. Likewise mages can't use bloodmagic saying that it's their only option to fight for their rights, this just adds fuel to the fire that ignites Templars' reasoning to be abussive and oppressive.

It might be blood magic or dying. It's hard to fault a blood mage who chooses life in such a circumstance.

I wouldn't fault them if it was in fact their only option. It's not however. They have other forms of magic that they can use. Forms that aren't forbiden.

Is the fact that it's forbidden the reason they shouldn't be using it?

Besides, according to the lore, blood magic is supposed to increase a mage's power to the point that they can do things they oughtn't be capable of. It can make battles that would otherwise be unsurvivable survivable.

[Warden661]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BoBear wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BoBear wrote...

This leads me to conclude that both sides are wrong. No, Templars can't use their power to abuse mages and treat them like dirt, this just adds more fuel to the fire that ignites mages' reasoning to use bloodmagic. Likewise mages can't use bloodmagic saying that it's their only option to fight for their rights, this just adds fuel to the fire that ignites Templars' reasoning to be abussive and oppressive.

It might be blood magic or dying. It's hard to fault a blood mage who chooses life in such a circumstance.

I wouldn't fault them if it was in fact their only option. It's not however. They have other forms of magic that they can use. Forms that aren't forbiden.

Is the fact that it's forbidden the reason they shouldn't be using it?

Besides, according to the lore, blood magic is supposed to increase a mage's power to the point that they can do things they oughtn't be capable of. It can make battles that would otherwise be unsurvivable survivable.

When you want the world to think of you as someone they can trust with a power that not everyone has using a forbidden form of magic is counterproductive.

It's not the fact that it's forbidden, it's the reason it's forbidden that they shouldn't use it. Yes blood magic can help a mage become capable of power that he/she is otherwise incapable of doing on their own or without the help of lyrium. But at what cost? Lore also says that blood magic opens the veil allowing demons the opportunity to pass into the physical world. Plus in modern day Thedas, sometimes the only way to learn blood magic is contact a demon directly risking possession.

It's a tool that they can use but not their only option. I'd say using blood magic at any time could be more life threatening as using magic that is forbidden against Templars for self-defense.

Modifié par BoBear, 20 novembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[VanDraegon]

Taritu wrote...

They did everything they could to make us be pro-templar in DA2, and it still didn't work in most cases. They didn't seem to be too happy about that.

  wut?  That is quite the leap.

Modifié par VanDraegon, 20 novembre 2012 - 05:45 .

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Our society if full of different kinds of bigotries, and millions (if not billions) of people live without rebelling. Should they all die?

Possibly. The real question is: on what basis do you determine that we deserve to live?

I don't know if it's a good reason, but I'm against death and murder. I don't think anyone should be killed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't really give a crap about the civilians of Thedas, since they're content to live in a society swarming with fifty different kinds of bigotry.

Wow..the amount of bigotry and hypocrisy here is...beyond measure.

You call out the templars, Cirlces and their supporters, and demonstrate to be far, far worse.
You condemn others for not caring about the mages enogh (even tough you cannot prove it, as they clearly do care about mages - the Cirlces are there for their protection as well)

You clealy say you don't care about 99% of the population, and the only ones that matter are the 1% special snowlakes you do care about.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Even if this was a universal truth, (I'm quite sure its not) how does this justify killing them? Or, by inaction, allowing their deaths?

There's nothing to "justify". Even were they not bigots, there is no inherent worth to human life or society that makes it deserving of preservation.

By that logic, the lives of mages are not worth preserving either.

Good to know you support a world-wide RoA then.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I am serious. Worth is a human concept, and a subjective one at that. It only has meaning and relevance for as long as humans continue to exist. The universe doesn't care if we live or die. Or at least, there is no evidence that it cares.
 
The Circles are constructed to protect mundane society from the ravages of magic, so they are based on the assumption that mundane society deserves to be preserved. More than that, it assumes that mundanes are more deserving of preservation than mages are.

Actually no.
It assumes that 99% of the population and 1% of the mages have to be protected.
And since those 1% present a danger to everyone, they are the ones to be segregated.

So no. The only thing it does assume is that 100 lives take priority over 1 life.

[Rawgrim]

Wooha! Plaintiff is really digging himself into a hole today.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

i don't think Bioware did a good job in that, DA2 mages are negatively portrayed. Most of our quests are dealing with crazy mages, crazy blood mages, mages who become crazy, mages who turn into abomination, mages who use blood magic for personal gain and a mage who doing terrorism

What bad side of Templar in DA2?
- Sir Alrik who is ASSUMED a rapist
- RUMORS about Templar killing recruit
- RUMORS about Templar lobotomize many mages
- RUMORS about the Circle condition is bad
- Cullen beat a recruit, but later that recruit is an abomination
- Group of Templars who want to kill run away mages, but if you hand over the mages, none get killed
- Meredith character

I find no reason not to side with Templar except the Last Straw like i already mentioned.

The game is designed for player prone to become pro Templar, except if they see the very little thing in the end that is "the Circle Mage is innocent and it is not right for Meredith to kill them all while the one who is guilty for the crime that is terrorism is in front of her and that guy can walk away freely depend on Hawke decision"

Eh? Not quite correct there.

We do see mages complaining about rape.
We do see at least 3 templars that abuse their power.

Meredith....she was OK in the begining. Kirkwall was strict, but she was a good Knight-Commander. It's not untill the idol that she start going screwy.

But the majority of mage supporters rally agaisnt the templars and Circles on the principle that mages are segregated. For many (as redicolous as it seems) that in itself is enough.


What is funny is that if you are right and DA2 was made to show people the templars are right, then it backfired spectacularly. 
If the polls are anything to go by, mage supporters are still in the majority and if anything have become more zealous.

[Welsh Inferno]

I really don't see how DA2 was made to show the Templars are right. Both seemed almost equally bats**t crazy to me. Which I hate about the game.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

I really don't see how DA2 was made to show the Templars are right. Both seemed almost equally bats**t crazy to me. Which I hate about the game.

Same here.  I suppose one way to portray both sides equally is to portray the worst of both, but by Act 3, I was facepalming each time a mage or templar asked me for help.  Chances were good that I'd end up fighting templars, blood mages, abominations, or some combination of the three with nary a sane person in sight.

Add that all up, and I'm kind of hoping that in DA3, I can just toss them all into a big pit of death somewhere and let them murder each other.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:03 .