300 réponses à ce sujet

[Statulos]

berelinde wrote...

David Gaider has confirmed that we will not be required to play characters who work for the Chantry nor will our characters be forced to express belief in the Maker. Our characters may still reference religion casually in conversation, but this will be restricted to times when an English-speaking person might say things like "What the hell are you waiting for?" I'm not sure if Andraste and the Maker will be evicted from our combat barks, but it's unlikely that our non-believer characters will be forced to tell their lovers that deceased relatives are "with the Maker."

I cannot count the real world examples of people using expressions as "oh my God" or "Jeeeeeesus" being atheists. So I guess it´s the same as "Maker´s breath" in Thedas: many atheists use simply because it´s a common popular expression.

[TheBlackBaron]

Has "can I be atheist?" become the new "romance Tali please?" threads from the ME1 days?

[esper]

xsdob wrote...

Silcron wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I think in the dragonage universe, where darkspawn, archedemons, actual demons, spirits, ghost, the spirit world, and all this other spiritual occurrences are not one shot events with no proof but actual physically observable occurrences that everyone knows about and can prove exist, that being atheist and proclaiming that nothing supernatural or spiritual exist in the world is a very illogical choice.


Atheist: I don't belive in the maker or in demons.
Normal person: But theres a demon attacking your villiage right now.
*Rage demon burns down house*
Atheist: Nope, doesn't exist. That's just more of your peoples mumbo jumbo religious bs.

Atheist means you don't believe in a supreme being, or several. In DA you would know demons are real, but there's no real proof the Maker exists. You just wouldn't believe the maker or whoever religion's god exists.

Why not just say can we choose to not believe in the maker? That would be a much easier, less charged, less massive conotations to it implication that the term atheist.

I'm agnostic myself, not enough things to convince me but there are some stuff that's a little too strange to just chalk up to cooincidence, so I'm on the fence about god and what type of god or gods there are.

That said, atheism from what I've seen has pretty much been against anything that can't be proven either scientifically or empirically, and that incluces the afterlife, magic, demons, spirits, the supernatural, and all of that.

It just seems much easier to say "let us be able to not believe in the maker" than to use the word associated with disbelieving all these things and working to prove they don't exist.

It's just a gripe, but I feel a different word would work better in this instance than the term atheist, but that's just me. Espically since you kinda prove the existence of jesus in this game back in dragon age 1.

When people say they want to play an atheist they often mean: I want to say that I don't believe in the Maker.

Nobody wants to deny anything magical in Thedas. Magic is emperically and scientifically proveable in Thedas, hence no need for atheisim to deny it. In fact I say that magic should logically encourage atheism since any miracle can be explained with: Magic did it. Forexample, anything Andraste did. It would have been possible if she or someone in her army was a mage and knew some ancient elven ritual/weapon/ some fade being.

We don't prove the existance of anything in da:o, though. All knew that Andraste existed. Denying her existence would be like denying that the bible exist. She is not proven to be the Maker's chosen one though. I am still leaning towards Andraste was a (blood) mage (an quite possible possessed by a faith spirit).

Personally I am happy with the denyability we have had. My warden didn't care, quite frankly. So I guess she was a culture andrastian. And my Hawke lost faith after an ogre squashed her little sister. I don't find that any of those stances was contradicted, and I doubt Thedas have developed the word atheism yet.

Modifié par esper, 18 novembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Eh, atheism is good and all, but I would be OK with at least being apathetic about random fictional religion X.

[Jonata]

Atheism in a fantasy universe is kinda weird, though. It's like being an atheist during the Middle Age... sounds out of place.

[Eternal Phoenix]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

No.

[Flamingdropbear]

Wow, was not expecting this level of response. The reason I brough it up was how well I thought it was handled in the other games, but since we will be agents of the chantry i wondered how much this would affect the roleplaying in the theistic elements amongst other things.

Modifié par Flamingdropbear, 19 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Ophir147]

Can I ask why people equate atheism in Thedas to atheism IRL?

Because as I recall, the RL variety of atheist don't believe in something that has been shown to have no proof to exist, while also knowing that the atheist movement hadn't gained much credibility until we began answering questions we once thought unanswerable with facts.

Being an atheist in Thedas wouldn't make you enlightened, it would make you ignorant or stubborn, while the case is not the same pertaining to your real life values.

Modifié par Ophir147, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:15 .

[Thrillian]

Flamingdropbear wrote...

Wow, was not expecting this level of response. The reason I brough it up was how well I thought it was handled in the other games, but since we will be agents of the chantry i wondered how much this would affect the roleplaying in the theistic elements amongst other things.

We aren't going to be agents of the chantry.  David Gaider says so here...

http://social.biowar...ndex/14614580/4

[Battlebloodmage]

I remember somewhat that David Gaider stated you can denounce the Chantry if you so wish in DA3.

[AshenShug4r]

They have stated they'll give you that option, though as an atheist myself, I'm really not too bothered. Who is to say in a time and place like the setting of dragon age 3, I wouldn't be a believer? That said, it's always nice to have the option, I just wouldn't want it to become a focal point of the game itself. There's too much religious-atheist conflict in real life, I don't want to see it spill over to my favorite games.

[The Six Path of Pain]

The choice would be really nice,that way it can add replay value to the game.One playthrough I play as a devout(but reasonable)Andrastian,one a crazy Chantry Zealot,One where I express a little doubt in the makers existence,and one where I just say F#%K the Chantry and F@#K the Maker >...Combine this with the backgrounds they are going to give us and it will be a pretty damn good reason to buy the game.

[DragonAgeLegend]

No! I love the religion the way it is in DA, being an atheist in the game would be unethical. Let's remember our character will work in the chantry, they will be an inquisitor.

[The Six Path of Pain]

wesam987 wrote...

No! I love the religion the way it is in DA, being an atheist in the game would be unethical. Let's remember our character will work in the chantry, they will be an inquisitor.

David Gaider already said that you won't work for the Chantry if you don't want to.

[DragonAgeLegend]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

No! I love the religion the way it is in DA, being an atheist in the game would be unethical. Let's remember our character will work in the chantry, they will be an inquisitor.

David Gaider already said that you won't work for the Chantry if you don't want to.

Even better, an option. I think I'll allow my character to work for the chantry. 

[The Six Path of Pain]

wesam987 wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

No! I love the religion the way it is in DA, being an atheist in the game would be unethical. Let's remember our character will work in the chantry, they will be an inquisitor.

David Gaider already said that you won't work for the Chantry if you don't want to.

Even better, an option. I think I'll allow my character to work for the chantry. 

EXACTLY!...Now hopefully that choice comes with a zealot,doubtful,and atheist option(and hopefully a few more)and we already got a great sounding RPG

[Nefla]

If I have to be a human, you have to be a devout follower of the maker.

[DragonAgeLegend]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

wesam987 wrote...

No! I love the religion the way it is in DA, being an atheist in the game would be unethical. Let's remember our character will work in the chantry, they will be an inquisitor.

David Gaider already said that you won't work for the Chantry if you don't want to.

Even better, an option. I think I'll allow my character to work for the chantry. 

EXACTLY!...Now hopefully that choice comes with a zealot,doubtful,and atheist option(and hopefully a few more)and we already got a great sounding RPG

Completely agree, Haha. I don't want to wait till next year to hear more information.  

[SeptimusMagistos]

Ophir147 wrote...

Can I ask why people equate atheism in Thedas to atheism IRL?

Because as I recall, the RL variety of atheist don't believe in something that has been shown to have no proof to exist, while also knowing that the atheist movement hadn't gained much credibility until we began answering questions we once thought unanswerable with FACTS

and atheism in Thedas would require believing in some rational cause and source for, check 'em,

-- Magic!!
-- Darkspawn!!
-- Demons!!
-- Mages!!
-- Dragons!!
-- The Fade!!

for which none canonically exist in any state to which your character could possibly know.

Being an atheist in Thedas wouldn't make you enlightened, it would make you ignorant or stubborn, while the case is not the same pertaining to your real life values.

Magic exists, just as matter exists. That doesn't imply a Maker.

[Plaintiff]

Ophir147 wrote...
and atheism in Thedas would require believing in some rational cause and source for, check 'em,

-- Magic!!
-- Darkspawn!!
-- Demons!!
-- Mages!!
-- Dragons!!
-- The Fade!!

Um, no, they would not be required to do any such thing. As Morrigan herself says: "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure". If the Chantry wants people to believe that the Maker did it, then it's up to them to prove he exists.

We still have no idea how our universe came to be, or why it works the way it does, but that does not mean that the answer is automatically "God did it".

Magic is not antithetical to science. In a hypothetical world where magic exists, magic and science would be one and the same. Magic can be studied the same way that science can. The people of Thedas dont understand much about it yet, but that just means further study and experimentation is needed.

[Auintus]

I believe Gaider once said that we would not be forced to profess belief in the Maker. Dialogue options indicating this would be present as appropriate.
Now to see if I can find the source...
EDIT:

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, so. Without going into specifics on the plot of DA3, because I can't do that, I will say the following:
You aren't going to be forced to serve the Chantry or even think it's a good thing. You aren't forced to express belief in the Maker. I said previously we would try to allow options to actively express doubt, if that's your thing, so long as it works in context. You of course will also have the option to do the opposite.
Ultimately, the ability to determine the personality and/or feelings on your own character is one of the fundamental strengths of an RPG, and one that DA is sticking with. Yes, it must also work within the context of the setting and the plot-- you can't do anything-- but that's always been the case with any game, and in the case of DA3 it is not required that you be forced into a certain set of beliefs in order to make it work.

From here.
So there you have it.

Modifié par Auintus, 19 novembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Zobo]

xsdob wrote...

I think in the dragonage universe, where darkspawn, archedemons, actual demons, spirits, ghost, the spirit world, and all this other spiritual occurrences are not one shot events with no proof but actual physically observable occurrences that everyone knows about and can prove exist, that being atheist and proclaiming that nothing supernatural or spiritual exist in the world is a very illogical choice.

xsdob wrote...

That said, atheism from what I've seen has pretty much been against anything that can't be proven either scientifically or empirically, and that incluces the afterlife, magic, demons, spirits, the supernatural, and all of that.

Exactly!
In Dragon Age, in contrast to the real world, magic is a fact that indeed can be proven either scientifically or empirically, so magic is in fact more scientific than supernatural.
You understand in the Middle Ages for many people lightings from the sky were as supernatural as magic for people in Thedas, right? Yet now we know exactly how the lighting works. Who to say the same kind of knowledge can't be gathered about magic in Thedas in the next 1000 years of progress? Maybe in the end Midi-chlorians are the answer.

xsdob wrote...

Atheist: I don't belive in the maker or in demons.
Normal person: But theres a demon attacking your villiage right now.
*Rage demon burns down house*
Atheist: Nope, doesn't exist. That's just more of your peoples mumbo jumbo religious bs.

Funny thing is, it seems demons themselves do not believe in the Maker, check up DAO for this.

Jonata wrote...

Atheism in a fantasy universe is kinda weird, though. It's like being an atheist during the Middle Age... sounds out of place.

Common mistake. There were atheists in the Middle Age. There were even atheists long before the Middle Age. Also with some pretty big names amongst them.

[Blight Nug]

As a religious person myself, I actually prefer to play an agnostic character in the DA universe because the Maker is not the God I believe in IRL. However, I feel no need or desire to denounce the Maker or give some speech or argument against him. The game simply hasn't given us enough information to warrant a logical and conclusive opinion beyond gamer's role playing preference.

I see the Bioware has put effort into keeping us in the dark about the existence of the Maker, for the purpose of allowing us to role play different religious views.

This whole thread has no purpose because OP falsely assumed we would be churches muscle with chantry beliefs forced upon us.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Ophir147 wrote...

Can I ask why people equate atheism in Thedas to atheism IRL?

Because as I recall, the RL variety of atheist don't believe in something that has been shown to have no proof to exist, while also knowing that the atheist movement hadn't gained much credibility until we began answering questions we once thought unanswerable with FACTS

and atheism in Thedas would require believing in some rational cause and source for, check 'em,

-- Magic!!
-- Darkspawn!!
-- Demons!!
-- Mages!!
-- Dragons!!
-- The Fade!!

for which none canonically exist in any state to which your character could possibly know.

Being an atheist in Thedas wouldn't make you enlightened, it would make you ignorant or stubborn, while the case is not the same pertaining to your real life values.

Atheism does not mean disbelief in magic, darkspawn, demons, mages, dragons, or the Fade. First of all evidence for these occurences clearly exist and are integral to reality and the observable universe in which Thedas is set.

Secondly, atheism, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, atheism is defined as "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods." and not as a disbelief in real, observable phenomena.

Since the existence of the Maker or of other divine creators has never been conclusively proven within the DA universe (NB: The Old Gods are not believed to be creators and their actual nature is incredibly vague). It seems perfectly plausible, if not necessarily likely, for someone to acknowledge the self-evident existence of magical phenomena but to believe that they arose through natural processes rather than being created by divine powers.

The Chantry and its faith are built on belief not fact. However the nature of the Maker, if indeed it exists, may be revealed in future games.

To summarize, the existence of magic does not necessarily require the existence of a creator deity. There is no reason someone in Thedas might not reach this conclusion.