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[Ophir147]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Atheism does not mean disbelief in magic, darkspawn, demons, mages, dragons, or the Fade. First of all evidence for these occurences clearly exist and are integral to reality and the observable universe in which Thedas is set.

Secondly, atheism, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, atheism is defined as "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods." and not as a disbelief in real, observable phenomena.

Since the existence of the Maker or of other divine creators has never been conclusively proven within the DA universe (NB: The Old Gods are not believed to be creators and their actual nature is incredibly vague). It seems perfectly plausible, if not necessarily likely, for someone to acknowledge the self-evident existence of magical phenomena but to believe that they arose through natural processes rather than being created by divine powers.

The Chantry and its faith are built on belief not fact. However the nature of the Maker, if indeed it exists, may be revealed in future games.

To summarize, the existence of magic does not necessarily require the existence of a creator deity. There is no reason someone in Thedas might not reach this conclusion.

I was pointing out the fact that there are many things in Thedas that completely defy all laws of reason that exist in our world, that could have no seeming origin save for one from a supernatural/omnipotent entity.

Our atheists have a foundation of belief made of hundreds of years of curiosity and experimentation, which, at its very roots, was created by the religious searching for anwers. A notable example includes my superhero Isaac Newton, who was a devout orthodox christian. As more and more was discovered about the inner workings of the world--what we intially thought was the magic work of an omniscient space god--we no longer had to rely on mythology in order to explain everything that goes on around us.

In Thedas, of course, there has been no scientific revolution, no genesis of logic, and unless something is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, it won't be happening for a while. In fact, there are many more things in Thedas than in Our World that would suggest some intelligent origin of all of the fantastic things that happen in the setting. 

Of course, someone could still reach the conclusion of disbelief in Thedas. However, the implications are much different from what constitutes disbelief IRL; your character would be stubborn and content to wallow in ignorance for the rest of his life, which was, of course, never my point in the first place. 

My point is that atheism IRL would be entirely different from atheism in Thedas. Atheism in the latter would require ignorance and complacence.

Besides, it is human nature to wish to believe in something, and whether your are atheist or religious, you don't deny the existence of the matter and forces around you, as well as their origin. Except people like Isaac Newton didn't have the luxury of a robust supply of scientifically proven reasoning, laws, and facts, and Newton was by no means an ignorant man.

A lot of people need to check their preconceptions of the religious as "ignorant" and the atheists as "logical" at the door when they start talking about the Dragon Age setting.

[Xilizhra]

Magic, spirits, etc. are empirically observable phenomena in DA and wouldn't be covered by atheism. All one would need to be atheist in this universe is to not possess an active belief in specific higher powers, or perhaps acknowledge that they exist but not believe them to be true gods (as is the case for most people with the Old Gods). Hence, atheism would never require ignorance.

[Plaintiff]

Ophir147 wrote...
I was pointing out the fact that there are many things in Thedas that completely defy all laws of reason that exist in our world, that could have no seeming origin save for one from a supernatural/omnipotent entity.

Our atheists have a foundation of belief made of hundreds of years of curiosity and experimentation, which, at its very roots, was created by the religious searching for anwers. A notable example includes my superhero Isaac Newton, who was a devout orthodox christian. As more and more was discovered about the inner workings of the world--what we intially thought was the magic work of an omniscient space god--we no longer had to rely on mythology in order to explain everything that goes on around us.

I'm not sure you know what atheism is. It has no basis in science. Science does not disprove faith, science and faith (or the lack thereof) are not connected in any way.

In Thedas, of course, there has been no scientific revolution, no genesis of logic, and unless something is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, it won't be happening for a while. In fact, there are many more things in Thedas than in Our World that would suggest some intelligent origin of all of the fantastic things that happen in the setting.

Nothing in Thedas suggests anything. You think it does because you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who lives in a different world, where such things do not exist. But in Thedas they are just facts of existence.

Science is just "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural".

Every time a mage casts a spell, they are using science.

Of course, someone could still reach the conclusion of disbelief in Thedas. However, the implications are much different from what constitutes disbelief IRL; your character would be stubborn and content to wallow in ignorance for the rest of his life, which was, of course, never my point in the first place. 

My point is that atheism IRL would be entirely different from atheism in Thedas. Atheism in the latter would require ignorance and complacence.

No it wouldn't. The religious institutions in Thedas are the ones that require the populace to be ignorant and complacent, demanding that they except everything simply as the "will of the Maker", rather than searching for alternative explanations. Just like they have in our own history.

Besides, it is human nature to wish to believe in something, and whether your are atheist or religious, you don't deny the existence of the matter and forces around you, as well as their origin. Except people like Isaac Newton didn't have the luxury of a robust supply of scientifically proven reasoning, laws, and facts, and Newton was by no means an ignorant man.

"Human nature" is a vague phrase that could be used to justify virtually anything, even things that contradict each other.

Atheists don't deny the existence of matter and forces because they can be perceived. If deities can't be perceived, then the question of their existence is irrelevent, because there is no answer to be found.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not sure you know what atheism is. It has no basis in science. Science does not disprove faith, science and faith (or the lack thereof) are not connected in any way.

Specifically because "faith" isn't falsifiable, and as such science can't really do anything with it. Science can, however, more or less disprove a lot of claims of various religions.

[Ophir147]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not sure you know what atheism is. It has no basis in science. Science does not disprove faith, science and faith (or the lack thereof) are not connected in any way.

If one's atheism has no basis in science, then how is that any different from religion accepted from blind faith?

Also, I changed my first post because it seemed to be confusing my point too much.

Modifié par Ophir147, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Xilizhra]

Ophir147 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not sure you know what atheism is. It has no basis in science. Science does not disprove faith, science and faith (or the lack thereof) are not connected in any way.

If your atheism has no basis in science, then how is that any different from religion accepted from blind faith?

Also, I changed my first post because it seemed to be confusing my point too much.

The point is that "atheism" isn't a thing; it's the lack of a thing, namely the lack of belief in a higher power. Atheism has no basis because atheism needs no basis; it's theism that needs one.

[esper]

Ophir147 wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Atheism does not mean disbelief in magic, darkspawn, demons, mages, dragons, or the Fade. First of all evidence for these occurences clearly exist and are integral to reality and the observable universe in which Thedas is set.

Secondly, atheism, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, atheism is defined as "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods." and not as a disbelief in real, observable phenomena.

Since the existence of the Maker or of other divine creators has never been conclusively proven within the DA universe (NB: The Old Gods are not believed to be creators and their actual nature is incredibly vague). It seems perfectly plausible, if not necessarily likely, for someone to acknowledge the self-evident existence of magical phenomena but to believe that they arose through natural processes rather than being created by divine powers.

The Chantry and its faith are built on belief not fact. However the nature of the Maker, if indeed it exists, may be revealed in future games.

To summarize, the existence of magic does not necessarily require the existence of a creator deity. There is no reason someone in Thedas might not reach this conclusion.

I was pointing out the fact that there are many things in Thedas that completely defy all laws of reason that exist in our world, that could have no seeming origin save for one from a supernatural/omnipotent entity.

Our atheists have a foundation of belief made of hundreds of years of curiosity and experimentation, which, at its very roots, was created by the religious searching for anwers. A notable example includes my superhero Isaac Newton, who was a devout orthodox christian. As more and more was discovered about the inner workings of the world--what we intially thought was the magic work of an omniscient space god--we no longer had to rely on mythology in order to explain everything that goes on around us.

In Thedas, of course, there has been no scientific revolution, no genesis of logic, and unless something is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, it won't be happening for a while. In fact, there are many more things in Thedas than in Our World that would suggest some intelligent origin of all of the fantastic things that happen in the setting. 

Of course, someone could still reach the conclusion of disbelief in Thedas. However, the implications are much different from what constitutes disbelief IRL; your character would be stubborn and content to wallow in ignorance for the rest of his life, which was, of course, never my point in the first place. 

My point is that atheism IRL would be entirely different from atheism in Thedas. Atheism in the latter would require ignorance and complacence.

Besides, it is human nature to wish to believe in something, and whether your are atheist or religious, you don't deny the existence of the matter and forces around you, as well as their origin. Except people like Isaac Newton didn't have the luxury of a robust supply of scientifically proven reasoning, laws, and facts, and Newton was by no means an ignorant man.

A lot of people need to check their preconceptions of the religious as "ignorant" and the atheists as "logical" at the door when they start talking about the Dragon Age setting.

You either don't know what atheism means or you purposely ignore the meaning. Atheism means a disbelief in gods/ a creator. Not a disbelief in the supernatural and even if it meant a disbelief in the supernatural, magic is natural in Thedas. Magic does not defy the laws of Thedas universe, it is part of these laws.

There is scientific studies in Thedas, Tevinter forexample have studied mage-genelogy, it is likely they have a better study on demonolgy/magic in general as well from the time where they where followers of the 'old gods' (which was never believed to be gods in the creature sense, but simply very powerfull being that was word following). Orlais have a university (what they study I don't know), the Qunari have extensive philosofal studies which led to the forming of the Qun and dabbles in firearms as well (Which some dwarves do to, they just base their study on lyrium).

Atheism is not denying that magic exist, so it is not ignorant. Morrigan was an atheist, she just didn't know because such a stance on the matter is not widespread enough that Thedas need a term for the word yet. 

[esper]

Ophir147 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not sure you know what atheism is. It has no basis in science. Science does not disprove faith, science and faith (or the lack thereof) are not connected in any way.

If your atheism has no basis in science, then how is that any different from religion accepted from blind faith?

Also, I changed my first post because it seemed to be confusing my point too much.

Atheism is not different than blind faith. It is the faith that no creator exist and govern our lives. 
- Of course my stance for saying so is that I am agnostic (a true agnostic) and believe that it is impossible to know.

An atheist believe there is no god.
An religious person believe that a divine existence of some form exist. (And must religion also believe that divine will govern them in some way after death)
An agnostic believe that you cannot know what you haven't experienced, thus you cannot know what comes after you am irredeemble death and the answer to wherever a divine existence exist is unanswerable.

[Plaintiff]

Ophir147 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not sure you know what atheism is. It has no basis in science. Science does not disprove faith, science and faith (or the lack thereof) are not connected in any way.

If your atheism has no basis in science, then how is that any different from religion accepted from blind faith?

Also, I changed my first post because it seemed to be confusing my point too much.

Well, for starters, I'm not an atheist. I neither deny nor accept the existence of any deity or deities until sufficient evidence can be brought forth to confirm one way or the other.

You said that science replaces mythological explanations for physical phenomena, and in some respects, that is true, but it cannot prove if there are any gods or not. Science can only be applied to observable phenomena. Until such time as deities become observable, the question of their existence is irrelevent to science.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Is Morrigan really an atheist? Yeah she denied the afterlife but she believes in the old gods, unless she doesn't believe them to be literal gods as the Tevinter Imperium worshiped them.

Also inb4lockdown.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:36 .

[esper]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Is Morrigan really an atheist? Yeah she denied the afterlife but she believes in the old gods, unless she doesn't believe them to be literal gods as the Tevinter Imperium worshiped them.

The old gods exist. But the way Thedas uses the word 'gods' here it is highly discussable if they mean divine being or really powerfull dragon that we don't know what is, but grant us power.

I am not sure that even the ancient Tevinters believed them to be gods in the terms creatorers as much as they believed them to be worth following because of the raw power.

[esper]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Is Morrigan really an atheist? Yeah she denied the afterlife but she believes in the old gods, unless she doesn't believe them to be literal gods as the Tevinter Imperium worshiped them.

Also inb4lockdown.

To be really fair to Morrigan she would properly be closer to an agnostic or a 'I don't give a damn why is this relevant'.

Modifié par esper, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ophir147 wrote...

If your atheism has no basis in science, then how is that any different from religion accepted from blind faith?

Also, I changed my first post because it seemed to be confusing my point too much.

The point is that "atheism" isn't a thing; it's the lack of a thing, namely the lack of belief in a higher power. Atheism has no basis because atheism needs no basis; it's theism that needs one.

Atheism is a belief in no higher power.

It requires faith just like religions do.

The real middle party here are the skeptics who say "I don't know."

 by esper.

That's antitheism. It's a common misconception. Those who say "I don't know" are themselves atheists, merely "weak" agnostic ones.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's antitheism. It's a common misconception. Those who say "I don't know" are themselves atheists, merely "weak" agnostic ones.

I think you'd find a lot of self-proclaimed atheists in that group.

Quite possibly, but I don't personally know anyone who denies all possible existence of any and all higher powers. I do know several who deny the Abrahamic god, but that's not antitheism across the board, only against one religion (and every strongly religious person who isn't Unitarian or similar is an antitheist against all religions except their own).

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ophir147 wrote...

If your atheism has no basis in science, then how is that any different from religion accepted from blind faith?

Also, I changed my first post because it seemed to be confusing my point too much.

The point is that "atheism" isn't a thing; it's the lack of a thing, namely the lack of belief in a higher power. Atheism has no basis because atheism needs no basis; it's theism that needs one.

Atheism is a belief in no higher power.

It requires faith just like religions do.

The real middle party here are the skeptics who say "I don't know."

 by esper.

That's antitheism. It's a common misconception. Those who say "I don't know" are themselves atheists, merely "weak" agnostic ones.

Actually, those that say 'I don't know' a undecided and falls to whatever that is the cultural default in their society. Most danes for example are culture christian which means they are bapitised, marries in the church and gets buried in holy ground and various other religious activities, but when if asked if they really believe they would likely change the subject, because they won't like to discuss it and simply don't know the answer.

But as an agnostic, I do admit that yes, that to is a belief. It is the belief that it is impossible to know. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

Magic, demons and ghosts are not intrinsically supernatural, so there's really no reason why there shouldn't be materialistic philosophies in Thedas.

Sadly, it seems there is no such thing as an intelligent person in Theads. Given the lack of philosophers and mathematicians in general, a lack of atheism is not suprising.

I hope we'll see some evidence of people like Plato and Democritus in the next game.

Edit:

esper wrote...
But as an agnostic, I do admit that yes, that to is a belief. It is the belief that it is impossible to know. 

You do realize that knowledge is a subset of belief?

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:54 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

EntropicAngel wrote...
And odd how you have mathematicians and philosophers and chemists, armchair anyway, who aren't atheists.

Did I ever say otherwise? Please read what people write instead of just inserting what you expect.

[esper]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's antitheism. It's a common misconception. Those who say "I don't know" are themselves atheists, merely "weak" agnostic ones.

I think you'd find a lot of self-proclaimed atheists in that group.

It is also a matter of langue nuances. I look up atheism in my langues wordbook, I get (directly translated): A view of life that deny the existence of a divine power.

Antitheisme means (in my langue) dirictly oppossing the belief that a religous power exist. Which in practical context means oppossing orgnized religiousity and in a theisme copntext mean oppossing a specific god/gods.

[Ophir147]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, for starters, I'm not an atheist. I neither deny nor accept the existence of any deity or deities until sufficient evidence can be brought forth to confirm one way or the other.

Sorry! Didn't mean to imply that you were Atheist. To be fair, I didn't think anyone else could be arguing for its own sake like myself. I edited my above post.

Also, the subject has seemingly twisted into something unrelated to my point and to DAIII, so I'll leave with my thoughts on the OT before the thread gets locked.

I like the idea of more choices always, and with Bioware's fanbase being in the state that it's in, I honestly don't think we have anything to worry about. What I would like to see is a separation between Diplomatic/Nice Guy answers and being religious, as if the only reason you could be a good person is fear of the Maker. Doing the opposite for Aggressive dialogue would also work well.

I believe the way Mass Effect handled religion is would be worth trying, with one conversation allowing the PC to establish their religion to a companion, perhaps a religious companion like a templar or seeker. 

However, seeing how much more religion factors into the Dragon Age series, I have to wonder if they would really be able to pull it off to the same effect.