300 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True. I find the Andrastian religion to be repellant and I don't want my character to have anything to do with it.

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Hardly. The only alternative is the Imperial Chantry, and even that isn't that great.

I'm against monotheism, I'm against religion that makes conversion a priority, I'm against politically powerful organized religion, and I'm really against religion-based bigotry. Andrastianism is 4 for 4.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 novembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

All I want is for my character to think that the Chantry has their explanation for how things are, the elves have theirs, and the dwarves probably believe in something too and that he's yet to see the evidence that any of those explanations is correct.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't get this line of reasoning.

People claim to want proof of the supernatural.
Yet then they claim anything they can see and work with (ghost, spirits) is not supernatural (since it exists).

By that logic, the second you can "prove" supernatural it ceases to be supernatural. How then can one demand proof?

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't get this line of reasoning.

People claim to want proof of the supernatural.
Yet then they claim anything they can see and work with (ghost, spirits) is not supernatural (since it exists).

By that logic, the second you can "prove" supernatural it ceases to be supernatural. How then can one demand proof?

We want proof of supposed higher powers. Which we don't have in any conclusive sense.

[Lotion Soronarr]

If you select a non-believer response, the game should format your storage drives...and e-mail your porn collection to your family.

[Wulfram]

I hope we have the option to not express religious belief, as was very nearly present in DA2. I don't need the ability to express a lack of religious belief.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hardly. The only alternative is the Imperial Chantry, and even that isn't that great.

I'm against monotheism, I'm against religion that makes conversion a priority, I'm against politically powerful organized religion, and I'm really against religion-based bigotry. Andrastianism is 4 for 4.

Not what I meant.

Baby = belief in the Maker
Bathwater = Chantry

Still too monotheistic for my tastes. I have no affection for or desire to participate in any belief in the Maker.

[ObserverStatus]

oh god, not this thread again. :'(

Modifié par bobobo878, 19 novembre 2012 - 07:26 .

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Still too monotheistic for my tastes. I have no affection for or desire to participate in any belief in the Maker.

I'd love to follow this rabbit hole, but I feel we're straying already, so I'll stop.

PM me if you like. I'm receptive.

[CaptainBlackGold]

I find this an interesting question; how accommodating should the in-game world be to our "real" world beliefs? It has been framed in the context of "atheism" but the same dynamic applies to real world "theists."

For example, any "real world" Theist would find many aspects of the "Maker" to be blasphemous - the "Maker" of Thedas is certainly not the God of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. "He" most closely resembles the "god" of Deism, not Theism. But theists are never given the opportunity to refute this "false" view, in game.

So, if someone wants atheists' beliefs to be accommodated, how about providing options in-game for real world theists to be able to say something like, "I believe in the Maker, just not the one the Chantry talks about. I believe in a Maker who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, who fills every point of time and space with the entirety of His Being. I believe that He is intimately involved in every aspect of that creation..."

Do you see the issue here? Some people react to the Chantry and the Andrestrian religion as if somehow, the mere mention of any religion is forcing them to go against their core beliefs. But real world Theists have exactly the same problem because the"Maker" is certainly not the God of Theism, and the Chantry is certainly not the Christian church (or any other one).

So if atheists get to express their real world views in game, when it differs from the setting, why should Theists not be given the same opportunity? See the can of worms we are opening up here?

FWIW, when I play the DA games, I have to head canon in order to stay consistent with my own strongly held beliefs. I have to say, "These poor benighted pagans are only fumbling after some dark, distorted image of the Ultimate. Maybe this is like the world before the Incarnation..." But I do not expect the game itself to reflect my beliefs here. Most would be offended if I insisted that the game must accommodate my beliefs.

Therefore, the atheist has the same option: they too can head canon, "These poor benighted primitives who have no concept of the real nature of the Ultimate. Maybe this is what it was like to be a scientific man before the age of science..."

Sauces, gooses and ganders people...

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

When push comes to shove, though, I'm really glad that we can all safely remain agnostic when it comes to the existence of the Maker. I somehow have the feeling that were the Maker to appear and be confirmed to exist without a doubt, that a conversation with such a being might be a letdown for a lot of us akin to our infamous encounter with a certain child of the stars in another popular BioWare franchise.

BTW, I'd like to go on the record to say that while I have no problem with the concept of the Catalyst per se or it operating on twisted, inhuman reasoning and guiding the Reapers based on such reasoning (I think of it as a very cruel and callous Prime Directive of sorts), the actual presentation of that character, both visually and in terms of voice-acting was frankly, for lack of a more dignified term, kind of...



adj. derpy

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 19 novembre 2012 - 07:39 .

[addiction21]

Galvanization wrote...

I should hope so, we could be Atheists in Origins after all. :|

Not really. It was a line in a single origin story thats ambiguous. A few have declared that it is a absolute declaration of atheism for everyone and anyone that maybe chose it.

Now to decide to close this window or watch the same couple people go around in the same circles they have a hundred times before.

[Xilizhra]

So, if someone wants atheists' beliefs to be accommodated, how about providing options in-game for real world theists to be able to say something like, "I believe in the Maker, just not the one the Chantry talks about. I believe in a Maker who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, who fills every point of time and space with the entirety of His Being. I believe that He is intimately involved in every aspect of that creation..."

Leliana says something approaching that already.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, if someone wants atheists' beliefs to be accommodated, how about providing options in-game for real world theists to be able to say something like, "I believe in the Maker, just not the one the Chantry talks about. I believe in a Maker who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, who fills every point of time and space with the entirety of His Being. I believe that He is intimately involved in every aspect of that creation..."

Leliana says something approaching that already.

But that is the point, Leliana says this, not the PC. I thought the point of the OP was that they wanted the PC to be able to express agnosticism/atheism?

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Is Morrigan really an atheist? Yeah she denied the afterlife but she believes in the old gods, unless she doesn't believe them to be literal gods as the Tevinter Imperium worshiped them.

Also inb4lockdown.

In Xil's thread, Gaider said that Morrigan is not an atheist as we use the term.

He didn't elaborate, but he did say that.

Well Morrigan states outright that she doesn't believe in any higher power, but that doesn't necessarily make her an atheist.

Technically speaking, agnostics don't believe either, they're waiting for confirmation one way or the other.

But Morrigan might just be trolling Leliana.

Very likely.  They don't particularly care for one another.  Besides, Morrigan on a few occasions expressed belief in (or "knowledge of" might be more accurate) a variety of "higher powers."  She just didn't have any particular reverence for any of them.

Modifié par General User, 19 novembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...
So if atheists get to express their real world views in game, when it differs from the setting, why should Theists not be given the same opportunity? See the can of worms we are opening up here?

It is not about expressing real world views to me, it is about having a believable world in which there are a number of different philosophical worldviews, some of which should be (semi-)materialistic. It is quite frustrating to be unable to play an educated character.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
People claim to want proof of the supernatural.
Yet then they claim anything they can see and work with (ghost, spirits) is not supernatural (since it exists).

You do not seem to understand what "supernatural" even means. Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Supernatural

[Xilizhra]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, if someone wants atheists' beliefs to be accommodated, how about providing options in-game for real world theists to be able to say something like, "I believe in the Maker, just not the one the Chantry talks about. I believe in a Maker who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, who fills every point of time and space with the entirety of His Being. I believe that He is intimately involved in every aspect of that creation..."

Leliana says something approaching that already.

But that is the point, Leliana says this, not the PC. I thought the point of the OP was that they wanted the PC to be able to express agnosticism/atheism?

PC: "I prefer your beliefs to those of the Chantry."
Done and down.

[General User]

Atheism in the 21st century is virtually inseparable from either a highly politicized philosophy or a highly philosophized series of policies (depending on how you look at it).

Virtually no one in Thedas is an "atheist" because both the philosophy and the politics we associate with the term all but don't exist there.

Modifié par General User, 19 novembre 2012 - 08:05 .