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Request: Tileset model and/or texture overrides.


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#1
Master Jax

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Something I've been working on (on and off, depending on real life factors) is a complete overhaul of the original Bioware tilesets. It seems to me most builders work on completely original and isolated tilesets or expansions to original tilesets.... which is great, but for the fact those are seldom used, and usually in Persistent Worlds or very recent modules. This also requires us to download a completely new tileset hak pack and either build modules with it, or wait for some author to include them in their work.

The vast majority of modules in the Vault were created and designed to use the original Bioware tilesets, so it makes sense to me that we work on those, precisely because we can override them with better quality models and textures, and everyone can see the new material right away, without the need to re-build the entire module.

I have been trying to do so for some time now and I believe have made great strides towards my goal, which is to make the game look closer to modern standard graphics.  How do I go about this? Higher polygon models, higher resolution textures and a lot of tweaking. My idea digresses from most other endeavors of the like because it seems to me those are more on the "Blurry, unfocused" look of games like NWN2 or Dragon Age. My approach is for sharper images, more realistic-looking scenarios, very much what Project Q seems to go for as well.

So, after this long introduction, I would like to respectfully ask talented authors to share some work in this respect to give the old tilesets a revamp along these guidelines. I will share both "concept" pictures of what I mean and strive for, as well as actual pictures of how my NWN looks with some of the modifications already made. Hopefully, this will gain momentum and interest in the community, and we can release some new overrides for all to enjoy! 

For starters, the images of what I aim for:

http://files.g4tv.co...68_S/skyrim.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot...-screenshot.jpg

http://www.gamereact...yrim_241522.jpg

http://xbox360media....1901825-000.jpg

Modifié par Master Jax, 19 novembre 2012 - 05:23 .


#2
Bannor Bloodfist

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1: Higher polys on buildings doesn't give much, but does cause the engine to choke.
2) comparing with Skyrim is completely unfair.... Aurora, the Engine that NWN is built with, will NOT support that sort of overlaying composure. Skyrim is built with a HUGE number of overlapping objects, textures, etc. Any single item can have 5 or more textures assigned to it.

NWN can not support it, at all. You can overlay a bit with alpha textures, but you are completely required to have an overlapping object to hold that extra texture, thus doubling the total poly count for truly very little gain. To accomplish what Skyirim does, you would have to have at least 5 overlapping objects in place, and some way of merging/creating the various alpha layered textures so that they line up etc... believe me, you MIGHT accomplish that with a single tile, but an entire tileset would cause the engine to just crash if it ever loaded at all.

Believe me, we ALL want to accomplish something like that with Aurora, and we have searched for years to find a way to do it. So far, we have been able to increase the quality a bit but it costs a great deal of processing to accomplish. NWN was built to work in a Windows 95 environment. Long before things like multi-core, multi-threading, ram over 1 gig etc... NWN has no clue about such things, it can't. The core of Aurora STILL works on Windows 95... that is Ninety Five, not even Win98 or Me. When multi-core cpu's were released, Bioware gave us the ability to single out a single CPU to be used, but it does NOT support multi-core, you are just locked into whatever single CPU you choose. They also boosted the ram options to a certain extent, but the main Aurora engine does NOT recognize anything above 1 gig, in fact, it likely doesn't even use the full 1 gig.

When all of us users requested upgrades to utilize more powerful systems Bioware replied that it would require a complete rewrite of the original code, and that it just was not feasible for that to occur as the cost would be way too high.

They claimed, originally, that Skyrim would not be using speedtree, yet they actually went back to speedtree anyway, which is why Skyrim only has 2 tree types currently. Yes, they are resized throughout the world, but still only two tree types, with minor graphic changes between them all.

Whatever the engine is behind Skyrim (I used to know, but can't remember right now) is very powerful, and has been used/licensed by many companies. Skyrim itself doesn't use the full power of that engine, yet it does accomplish quite a bit of it... water that actually flows and moves the player around, wind that blows and affects the environment etc..

However, even folks that have REALLY powerful computers have already run into problems with increasing graphics loads on the engine that Skyrim uses.

Aurora, doesn't stand a chance of EVER competing with software that was designed to run in 64 bit, multi-core, high ram computers, with Vid cards that carry mutl-gigs of ram themselves.

If you were to take a look at the physical side of things in SKyrim, a single mdl.nif file has selection options for a minimum of 6 different textures that can be applied, simultaneously on that single object. Aurora only allows ONE. They just can not be compared side by side, the power of Skyrim's base engine code far exceeds what is available to us, even using injection systems like nwnx. There is only so much we can accomplish.

You CAN create better looking textures, you CAN increase poly counts on buildings, but that only helps if there is a reason to add the polys, IE bent over sections etc, but aligning a texture to properly match that object is a nightmare. Which is why complicated building shapes typically use multiple, simple, objects to increase the depth looks etc.

Skyrim is really difficult to manage creating new stuff for. Folks are accomplishing it, but the ones that actually accomplish much are rare. It is VERY complicated to have to handle the .NIF file and adjust everything that needs to be adjusted. So far, there really is not a single engine that you can use to do that. You have to create the .NIF in something like 3dsmax or other software, THEN use Nifskope to apply the textures, test, re-edit with Nifskope or 3ds and try again. No simple replacement of textures for complicated objects, you really need to spend a huge amount of time on it.

NWN-Aurora is a whole lot easier to mod with/for, but it is also limited in what can be accomplished. You have a trade off.

For exteriors, Skyrim uses placeables to create everything. Their mountains look great, from a distance, but if you actually walk up the sides of those mountains (no on roads or paths, but just walking around) you can find HUGE gaps between what was intended to be a slope and what actually occurred, you can walk right though bits of the mountains etc...

You can have the same issue with NWN, but it uses tiles, 10x10 meters, and is much easier to find and close those gaps. With Skyrim, using that placeable type of system, it requires a huge amount of time reviewing what you paint, from various camera angles etc.

Interior wise, Skyrim offers a sort-of tile system that has fewer locks on it than NWN, it offers and actually requires, multilevel placement of the various tiles, you MUST have a rise/fall in a long hallway to block view, and set a special feature to block/limit the line of sight. In NWN you don't have as much control, but have much fewer possible issues of gaps or line of sight issues.

They really don't compare very well.

#3
henesua

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As far as replacing tilesets go,
Zwerkules has made some nice ones (biointerior, bioforest, biomines).
Project Q has extended and improved several (TNO being most notable for this)
Six has a nice reskin of the city
Chico did NWNCQ as I am sure you are aware
Helvene worked at extending a good number of tilesets

AND
ShaDoOoW is currently going through the standard tilesets and fixing bugs.

I'd like to see a combo of bugfixing and replacing. Zwerk, Q and Shadow have done the fixing side as well... but more cooperation in that regard would be greatly appreciated by all.

#4
Zwerkules

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henesua wrote...
Chico did NWNCQ as I am sure you are aware


I guess he is aware of that because he said that most aim to create the "Blurry, unfocused" look of games like NWN2 or Dragon Age - which is was NWNCQ tries. Those blurred textures with pseudo-bumpmaps which don't even match the texture is not my cup of tea.
I agree with Jax that sharper textures look far better.

There's one very important thing that people often forget about when retexturing tilesets. You can not just exchange one texture here by a better one you found which looks so good and then replace another one there with a better looking texture. The textures have to match and a texture that looks great on a single rock on the ground can look extremely bad on a whole rockface because it has far too much detail.
Too much detail, especially on ground textures, is actually a problem.

Modifié par Zwerkules, 20 novembre 2012 - 04:52 .


#5
Master Jax

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Wow! So much feedback already! Ok, let's go one by one. Bannor, thanks for that impressive and detailed explanation of how both engines work! I didn't have a single idea of what was going on there! However, I fear I may have not been clear on what my intentions are. You see, I am aware we can't ask much of NWN given its age, but I do believe there are great examples of how it can be overhauled in most beautiful way! Little details like Helvene's override trees, the complete re-texturing of the Cave/Mines tileset by Pste Marie, and the recent update to Toro's Rural Override. I mean... it's incredible what they have achieved! They may be pushing the boundaries of what the Aurora Engine can do, but just look at it!... It's astonishing! Just let me get things ready and I will show you guys what little I have already accomplished by mixing and tweaking all of these great works! Now, I agree that more polys and higher resolution can slow down the game, but given today's processing power and how authors have been able to pull this, I don't think it is really an issue! Just look at Zwerkules's Medieval City! His work alone is awe-inspiring! His textures are top-notch, and I think they show how detail and quality can make up for flat surfaces! In the past, this is how games worked, by simulating detail with textures.

One thing I have been asking for is higher resolution versions of custom textures. The reason, I believe is obvious. the usual 512x512 are great for small patches and really well set models, but they are terrible for larger areas and models. Case in fact, Toro's and Zwerkules's override for grass. I love both of them, so detailed and varied. The issue is they look smeared and pixelated on close up. I thought this was a model issue, given the whole UVW map thingama and such, but after checking Lord Rozencrant's Rocky Mountains, I found a huge hi-res file for grass override. To my surprise, it did the trick. It looks just as good on closer inspection. The downside? It isn't as detailed or varied as the previously mentioned!

Now, Heneshua, thanks for dropping by to share! I have actually checked out all of the contributions you mentioned, and as Zwerkules stated, I actually used NWNCQ's textures as an example of what I am not going for here. I have, however, used a lot of Chico's/Lord of Wormz models and overall changes, along with Project Q's, especially Six's, as he and Pste Marie seem to know EXACTLY what I want. Just look at Sixesthrice's tilesets!... They look sharp, amazing, and they all, IMHO, look so very up to modern standards! The problem is, there is only so much I can do to include bits and pieces here and there, because they are mostly isolated, new tilesets, which brings us back to the topic of the thread!

As I said before, you're right Zwerkules. I think you and I both share the same aesthetic taste here, and I am sure such is to be expected since I just LOVE your tilesets, and actually think you're the best example of what I mean when I speak of clever building. Your work is simply beautiful, and I have incorporated a lot of it into the City Exterior tileset, as well as the Castle Rural and some for Rural. I don't know how you do it, but your textures are something else entirely.

I believe we have discussed your concerns of the later part in some other thread, and I totally agree with you, which is why this work has taken so long for me. I usually go and do very detailed modification on each tile I touch so as to make sure everything seems right. I actually try to even bring variety by applying different textures where Bioware applied a single one. Case in point, trees. I have about... 7 different types of bark I rotate and use on trees in Rural.

Anyway, this message is so long! I will come back once I manage to upload the pics of what some of my tilesets look like so we can go from there! Also, before I forget, I linked the skyrim images more as a reference to color composition and texture. I don't expect NWN to look exactly like that, just as I mentioned before, to follow the general guidelines! Thanks everyone for replying, and let's hope this gains some more attention!

#6
ruadhri10

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I'm watching with interest to see how this turns out.

It would be so awesome if we could get areas built with the default tilesets looking even half as amazing as Seasonal Forest or Medieval City!

Modifié par ruadhri10, 20 novembre 2012 - 11:05 .


#7
s e n

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multiple 1024x1024 textures used in a single area (in my experience, and I think I remember six got the same issue, max you can use is two 1024x1024 textures) cause those textures to pixelate and automatically lower its resolution, resulting in a ugly splotchy texture instead of the high res one you should see. not sure if tweaking txi settings may solve

#8
NWN_baba yaga

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this texture thing always gives me a good headache when working on new things. In close up the details are great to look at but in a zoomed out view it can look plain ugly because of the repeating. Not sure why some go for highres textures when you dont play in a FPS view most of the time anyway. To me the first rule is that every texture of a tileset must coherent, an outstanding sharp texture along with more blurry ones destroys the whole harmony imo.

#9
Zwerkules

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I still got some unreleased work. The forest override that can be found at the vault is rather outdated. I have a different one with 'mountain peaks' at the top of the cliffs instead of the deep black somethings.
I also changed the ground and rock textures and modified more trees. You have to be careful not to raise the fog distance to more than 70 though, because the game gets rather laggy with all the foliage that has to be rendered then.

The other override I haven't released yet, because it's not quite finished is the beholder caves with ceilings.

I never made a rural override because Toro is doing a great job with his override and that combined with Helvene's trees looks really good.

As for the city tileset, retexturing won't help much there IMO. S030363l & Sixesthrice used very good textures which match the TNO tileset and their added buildings look great, but the original buildings are still plain ugly.

The opposite is the crypt tileset. The original one looks better then all the reskins of it I have seen.

Modifié par Zwerkules, 20 novembre 2012 - 04:48 .


#10
NWN_baba yaga

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about the crypt tileset... the only reskin i can recommend is the grey crypts. The texture that replaces almost every piece for the walls is "lowres" how come...:D but with the right environment setup it looks way better as the buah old one... and it´s easy to get the texture and replace it with a cool wall of your own;)

CEP has this one included too. The tileset makes use of the original along with the grey tone option for every terrain, crosser and features.

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 20 novembre 2012 - 06:38 .


#11
Master Jax

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Hey there, Baba! I guess you're right about your concerns on hi-res textures, but I also think you pretty much answered it for me. I don't play the game in first person, but I do so on third person, closer view, so far as to watch the entire PC. You see, I think this is how you really can appreciate the quality of the textures and models. You get to have a broad view of the game, but can also marvel at the detail. This is pretty much how modern RPG's do it. I have never played NWN in isometric view. I mean, that's the whole point of this endeavor. If we played zoomed out and from the top, it all would be irrelevant. As for the Crypts tileset, it's funny, but I believe that's the only one I haven't really worked on. If at all, I have added Hardpoints' ceilings and changed a texture here or there. I agree with you guys on these, I don't like any of the overrides so far, btu maybe once I am done with the others, I will go and try to do something to it.

Zwerkules! Thanks for dropping by again! The news of your unreleased content is great! I was actually just now downloading your Tin tileset override to take a better look at it. I agree in regards to the Rural override, though I still have some issues with the overall composition, especially since I have used lots of TNO models to override it as well. I think much of the Castle Rural tileset by DLA was how Rural should have looked like, so I try and bring all those elements together. There's a little Q, Wormz, NWNCQ, Toro and TNO in here. Right now, what I am still not liking much, as I mentioned before, is the grass texture. As good as Rozencrants's texture is, I still think a little more... well, texture.. would look much better. Your grass for both your exterior tilesets seems much better, same as Toros, but I suffer from the smeary effect with them. I am actually most interested in the texture you used for the tree planters in Medieval. I think you pulled that model/texture from NWN2 conversions, but if you look at the "grassy" part of such, it looks amazing, so texturized and colorful, and it doesn't seem to loose detail on closer inspection. A very sharp image, and I know it probably looks great because it's well set and on a small surface, but maybe something like it could be achieved as a regular grass texture? I don't know, just wondering here!

I am also having a bit of trouble finding the right coloration for dynamic grass. You see, all these values I don't really get, and it's mostly trial and error. I am using Toro's dry grass as a base, but it is so bright and colorful. I had to tone it down. Make it reddish for the forest and a bit yellowish for the Rural and Tno. Still, I am not entirely satisfied. Also, it's heartbreaking to play with grass density and farseeing values. The thing looks amazing when you populate the floor with grass and look over the horizon and see it stretch indefinitely... but the game lags so much... -_________- Need a new videocard... Maybe somene with an NVidia GTX 690 could offer some insight?

#12
cervantes35

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I have been working on a retextured City Exterior which Pstemarie and I started back during the NWN Enhanced days hoping to finish it sometime in the future.Posted Image

This is not the best picture but I have been working on adding many new terrains, overhauling some of the standard features and groups. I hope to get better pictures out here soon if anybody would be interested in seeing this finished.

Her is a list of terrains I have so far I am still building tiles for the terrains to make them play nice together.

Alleys
Barbican
Bridge, Low
Bridge, High
Buildings, Artisan
Buildings, Slum
Castle
Cemetary
Citadel
Cobble
Dock
Eraser
Market
Monastary
Monastary, Upper Floor
Pier
Raise/Lower
Stream
Wall
Water
Wharf

Modifié par cervantes35, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:49 .


#13
T0r0

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". Case in fact, Toro's and Zwerkules's override for grass. I love both of them, so detailed and varied. The issue is they look smeared and pixelated on close up. "

I know I'm not in the category with all those guys but thanks. My thoughts on what I just quoted. I made that grass texture back in 06 I think. IIRC I struggled with making it bigger but decided against it after trying out both ways. Baba touched on it I think, it was too much detail for something that you weren't going to be looking at so closely. Also that whole repeating thing was just a little too much.

#14
Master Jax

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Hey Cervantes! Nice to know you're still around and doing stuff with NWN! Your news on your work on TCN are very well-timed! And I am sure lots of community members would love to see it finished!

Toro! Great of you to drop by! Don't sell yourself short! I am loving your rural overrides! The recent update is breath-taking! The wooden palisades are... just wow, and the previous version? The one with the new area transition aesthetics? Beautiful. I am actually glad you posted here, cause it is a great moment to thank you for the work you've been doing on Rural. You and Six are actually the reason I even started working on it myself. As for your concerns regarding the high-resolution textures, I think it all goes back to how we play the game. I do so in a third person view mode, which brings you closer to the action and the visuals, so attention to detail is greatly appreciated. Actually that's one of the things I loved about your recent textures. The "fencetop" placing you did was very clever! It doesn't look the same, like a repetition of the file, it seems so varied and shaded... And the "dirt"? Great little details going on down there. Hell, why am I even telling you this? You obviously know what you did there!

#15
Rolo Kipp

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<looking in dismay...>

NWN_baba yaga wrote...
about the crypt tileset... the only reskin i can recommend is the grey crypts. The texture that replaces almost every piece for the walls is "lowres" how come...:D but with the right environment setup it looks way better as the buah old one... and it´s easy to get the texture and replace it with a cool wall of your own;)

CEP has this one included too. The tileset makes use of the original along with the grey tone option for every terrain, crosser and features.

Would you happen to know who the author of the grey crypts is?
Can it be found anywhere *before* CEP or is it a CEP original?

I'd like to add something that gets such approval to my nascent tileset list, but credit has to go where it's due, eh?
Besides... I need screenies ;-)

<...at his pile of vague hints>

#16
NWN_baba yaga

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@Rolo
the grey crypts is very old and i dont know who the author is/was. I dont even remember where i found it. But it must be on the vault- my only source for everything;) And i can share it with you guys if you dont find it or it was a included option only of some very big compilation;)

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 21 novembre 2012 - 05:58 .


#17
Rolo Kipp

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<peeking in...>

Well, I'm *hoping* it's on the vault... all of which I have on HD. But *finding* it is another thing :-P
What's the hak name? The actual file?

<...a very big, crowded vault>

#18
s e n

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google it!

#19
henesua

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i tried and failed

#20
NWN_baba yaga

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I added a few details to some tiles (red candles and skeletons in the wall openings as an example), retextured some parts and get the hakpak up as soon i have it independant. Not sure if i got the original of the tileset somewhere so feel free to like /dislike it. It will be released as is and i dont take any credit for anything;)

#21
NWN_baba yaga

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just to clarify that thing. This was only a reskin I´m talking about where the author integrated it into the original crypts tileset and basically desaturated every texture "only" and replaced the wallparts with a 64*64 texture... so what I did was to upgrade it to 256*256, added some details (as mentioned above), fixed errors wherever I noticed any and retextured lots of bad parts. So all in all a more or less bugfree crypt tileset with an option for an advanced retextured set:)

Not to discredit the work but it was nothing of a project... I´ll try to get the name of the author anyway for credits then;)

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:05 .


#22
OldTimeRadio

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Master Jax's comments about Zwerkules/T0r0's grass, T0r0's response and Baba Yaga's comment all seem to have their root in the variable camera zoom.  IMO, having a camera that can zoom in and out that much puts a hefty burden on a CC creator to make a model/texture look good- even at a zoom level which I'd argue is unrealistic and not indicative of how the object is actually going to be viewed most of the time by most of the players. 

Now, obviously Diablo 3 is a game whose models don't just rely on diffuse textures for their detail, but I thought this post was interesting to consider in light of the min/max camera issue I'm talking about.  AFAIK, Diablo 3 only has two levels of zoom and the closest is still way farther away than the close up with NWN.  So if you were creating models for that platform, you have a standard perspective to work with.

Way back when CEP was something rtrifts/Steel_Wind was toying with the idea of, he made an interesting set of guidelines which CC creators could use to keep in mind when making models and which I think serve to shelter CC creators from min/max criticism related to the camera zoom.  Here is the first revised set of guidelines by rtrifts and then, after Eligio Sacateca brought the project back from the dead, there was a poll on the NWVault to get an idea of the video card capabilities of NWNers.  Another revision of the guidelines (taking that new data into account) followed.

Do I think we need to convene an ecumenical council to determine what the guidelines should be in 2012?  Dunno.

Do I think people would pay attention to them?  Double dunno. 

Do I think guidelines in some form help the CC community?  Absolutely.

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:44 .


#23
NWN_baba yaga

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Good points OTR but to be honest in my case i only go my own way of developing things in that stage of nwn. I´m always open to suggestions and feedback but the way i design is no longer open to a change i´m not fully satisfied. The only real motivation left for nwn is to finish my projects fully visualized as I see them and stay true to my always-share-policy;)


And that i realy realy like this community and i would feel a bit empty without you all + thevault you know NWN!!!!

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 22 novembre 2012 - 07:58 .


#24
OldTimeRadio

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No, no- The point wasn't to get you or anyone else to adhere to some specific set of standards. 

I'm saying that criticism of a certain piece of custom content in NWN is justifable...up to a certain point.  And that trying to remedy those criticisms is also justified...up to a certain point.

But passed some point, you have to recognize that both the criticisms and the remedies jump off into an abyss togehter, holding hands.

Having some set of standards in mind (even if they're from 2004) helps keep both sides in check.  It also keeps that harmony you talked about, not just within the content that the custom content creator makes, but with all of the other content that exists in the game.

I'm intentionally being ambiguous, Baba.  :D

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 22 novembre 2012 - 08:50 .


#25
NWN_baba yaga

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I fully understand OTR and i try to keep a balance between my work and others and NWN in general. Thats why i avoid certain things i would like to see but then decide... no that´s nice but doesnt fit in. CEP gave me this lesson to not throw in anything in a hak and make something that looks totaly like a mixmatch of many but nothing of some kind of order;) I seriously have a problem with cep...:D yes precious you do:D

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:48 .