108 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

Ishbo wrote...

I also disagree that Bioware went for the best story, they pretty much
had 'token' characters of each race, aka Zevran, Oghren and Sten, with
Zevran fulfiling the role of token and elf and token Antivan.  As much
as I like Oghren, he is pretty much unnecessary storywise once you have
completed the Deep Roads.

That's what I mean though, token elf Zevran is used to represent elves, the Antivans and mercenaries/spies. If he was a mage there would be redundancy with Wynne, who you would then have to redesign, and you wouldn't get all the information about Zevran's world.

I'm guessing Bioware probably crafted out Alistair (who needs to be a templar, storywise), Leliana (who needs to be a bard, storywise) and Morrigan first (who needs to be a shapeshifter, storywise), then made all the other characters afterwards, which then kind of fill the missing spots. There are redundancies, like Sten and Oghren, but both are supposed to be mean, tough guys, they can't really be rogues or mages.
You could go all the way, and say why not have a female Alistair and a male Leliana, but that's just the way it is.

I don't even know why I'm defending Bioware.

Zevran and Leliana are fine as is, they are both rogues and with them the rogues are covered gender-wise.  As for Oghren, he is too much the stereotypical dwarf from other fantasy games so switching the gender of him and Branka around could actually work well, and put a nice spin on it.  Oghrena, the foul-mouthed battleaxe...

[Ishbo]

I want lady tank without having to play one.

SPOILER



There's always Shale!

Modifié par Ishbo, 04 janvier 2010 - 01:23 .

[Callie K]

I do have to admit that the running thread of sexism in the game is frustrating to me.  I played a male character the first playthrough and a female the second and was forced for the entirity of the game to hear snippy little comments like "I didn't expect a FEMALE Gray Warden there are no FEMALE Gray Wardens" and one of my female party members marveling over the fact that I was apparentlya  tough, competent female character. 

Eventually this did tick me off somewhat.  35 hours in, WHY YES, I DO STILL HAVE BREASTS, THANKYOUFORNOTICINGSHUTUP.

So, in this case the mage/mage/rogue bit does sort of enforce this running thread of persistant sexism in the game which, I mean, I don't know, is something the writers chose to put in there.  They could've created gender equality in Fereldan, or at least some sort of female warrior order, so at least I did not repeatedly have to hear about the marvel of my own breasts.  As the sort of lesbian that varies from season to season between butchy and lipstick, I gotta say I get good and enough of that in real life, thank you.

"Oh look, I'm playing an escapist fantasy game and people still say 'durh...boobs' every two hours.  Lovely!"

Modifié par Callie K, 04 janvier 2010 - 01:29 .

[Ishbo]

To be fair I think most of those comments are from macho guys like Sten and some dwarves... so I guess it fits their stereotype.

[Knal1991]

The silent sisters in Orzammar are woman warriors, though you cannot talk to them, obviously...>_>

[Callie K]

Ishbo wrote...

To be fair I think most of those comments are from macho guys like Sten and some dwarves... so I guess it fits their stereotype.

Honestly the in-party comments I'm thinking of are from Alistair (Apparently better known as Alistair "Will there be girls there?" B. Templar) and Morrigan, not the people I expected them from at all!  There was also the comments from Sten, though, yes.

[Cybercat999]

Ishbo wrote...

I want lady tank without having to play one.

SPOILER



There's always Shale!

I said a lady, not a bunch of rocks

[Cybercat999]

Ishbo wrote...

To be fair I think most of those comments are from macho guys like Sten and some dwarves... so I guess it fits their stereotype.

I am actually a female irl and I really like to see women in massive armor with big swords (or guns, depends what I play). I like to see them undecent too, in one of my games my character wears a thong and t-shirt only (and a big gun).
Guess I am weird huh?

[FlintlockJazz]

You know, a reverse-world would be interesting. One where if you play a male warrior all the other characters look down on you as some sort of sissy-boy since only women do that, real men become mages! I mean, have you seen the latest fashions from Orlais regarding Mage-wear?! No man would want to miss out on that!

[Baalzie]

Yep, they made Thedas after Medieval Europe in many ways, although oifcourse not even CLOSE to the point as it really was back then.... Jeanee d'Arc anyone? She got burned as a witch because sha dared to dress and act as a man, even if totally straight and all... Poor girl!



They COULD have kept the whole atmosphere of medieval Europe and still made Ferelden a genderequal place, as a staunch opposition of the very unequal society in Orlais...



I think they SHOULD have done so, would have made Ferelden actually WORTH something rather than being a pile of wet dogdung as it now stands...



But You can't expect trans-atlantics to know how to treat European history *Just as little as westerners at ALL get asian culture and history* unless they have especially focused on it in schooling ofc...

Sometimes quite funny to see how different Transatlanteans and European views on "old" and "ancient" is... I mean Medieveal buildings are FAR from ancient in most europeans view while they call the Liberty bell ancient in US...*Kinda laughed when I read that at said bell*

With only 400+ years of history, compared to 1500+, the word "history" get different meanings ofcourse^^



Anyhow, yes IMO they should have been less sexist in this game, no matter how much it fits whatever sexist stereotypes in the game, they choose what stereotypes to put IN afterall, doh!

[FlintlockJazz]

Ishbo wrote...

I want lady tank without having to play one.

SPOILER



There's always Shale!

Fook Shale, it's a pile of rock!

[phordicus]

dbl

Modifié par phordicus, 04 janvier 2010 - 02:04 .

[Callie K]

I like you, Baalzie.  Well said.

[phordicus]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yet somehow they have managed to go with the stereotypes still, and done it in several games now.  Of all the NPCs in BG2 the only male mage out of the whole lot was Edwin, an evil mage, while the rest were female and the closest you could get to a warrior woman was Jaheira, a druid.

be fair.  you're forgetting mazzy completely and jaheira was a multiclassed fighter/druid that BW broke the rules with to allow metal armor.  as for mages, jan was one.
your point is still somewhat valid but there's never a need for omissions and misrepresentations.
on second thought, you've no credibility with these mistakes so crucial to your point.

Modifié par phordicus, 04 janvier 2010 - 02:03 .

[FlintlockJazz]

phordicus wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yet somehow they have managed to go with the stereotypes still, and done it in several games now.  Of all the NPCs in BG2 the only male mage out of the whole lot was Edwin, an evil mage, while the rest were female and the closest you could get to a warrior woman was Jaheira, a druid.

be fair.  you're forgetting mazzy completely and jaheira was a multiclassed fighter/druid that BW broke the rules with to allow metal armor.  as for mages, jan was one.
your point is still somewhat valid but there's never a need for omissions and misrepresentations.
on second thought, you've no credibility with these mistakes so crucial to your point.

You're right, I completely forgot about Jan and Mazzy (who was one of my favourite NPCs, dunno how I could have forgotten her), however you chose to be malicious in your last line for no reason since I was not being malicious to you, so I suppose now we're gonna have to argue the point now in order for me to defend myself now.  There was still a massive slant towards female mages, and Jan was not good-aligned but chaotic neutral, and Mazzy was the only female fighter (yes, Jaheira was a fighter/druid, but that essentially meant that she was a druid with some combat skill due to the way AD&D 2nd ed worked with multi-classing), oh and Jan was a gnome.

We all make mistakes, I freely admit I made one, but that doesn't mean you have to be a prat about it.

[Thunderbolt56]

Paksenarrion...

[Abriael_CG]

Cybercat999 wrote...
Yes. Please.
I really love to play mage and my Morrigan is a great healer and Leli is just too good to miss for romancing. Only that stupid Alistair sticks like a sore finger in my all girls group. I want lady tank without having to play one.

Actually i thought it over, and turning alistair in a lady would cause problems with the story towards the end of the game (not saying where to avoid spoilers, but you probably know what I mean).

It's probably safer to make a completely new companion, but being in my first playthrough, I still have to throughly explore the toolset to see what can and cannot be done. I have a lot of experience in creating companions in Oblivion, but given the potential for companion dialogue and romance in DA:O making a really good companion with spoken dialogue, personal quest and romance options (yes, including sex, why not) is quite another kind of undertaking. Maybe my long past experience as a voice acting director would prove useful... we'll have to see.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Baalzie wrote...

Anyhow, yes IMO they should have been less sexist in this game, no matter how much it fits whatever sexist stereotypes in the game, they choose what stereotypes to put IN afterall, doh!

That's a load of bull. The same stupid argument is being used to forcibly put black characters into every movie and TV series, rather than letting the creative process flow naturally.

What, no black guy on the main cast? OMG RACIST LOLOLOLOL.

No. Racist would be having a black guy serve in the kitchen as a slave. Not including a character of a certain gender, or skin colour, isn't racism or sexism.

[Callie K]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

Anyhow, yes IMO they should have been less sexist in this game, no matter how much it fits whatever sexist stereotypes in the game, they choose what stereotypes to put IN afterall, doh!

That's a load of bull. The same stupid argument is being used to forcibly put black characters into every movie and TV series, rather than letting the creative process flow naturally.

What, no black guy on the main cast? OMG RACIST LOLOLOLOL.

No. Racist would be having a black guy serve in the kitchen as a slave. Not including a character of a certain gender, or skin colour, isn't racism or sexism.

When the creative process "flows naturally" by allowing creators to remain unaware of the expression of white (and often "white male") privilege in their games, movies, novels and television shows then, um, well, no, it's not a "load of bull." 
 
Overt racism is far more rare than institutionalized racism.  Institutionalized racism includes the systematic exclusion of non-Caucasians from the American media industry, exclusion both from representation in stories and through hiring practices.  Institutionalized sexism produces similar effects.

Peggy McIntosh has an excellent article on the assumptions ingrained by institutionalized racism here.

[Cybercat999]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...
Yes. Please.
I really love to play mage and my Morrigan is a great healer and Leli is just too good to miss for romancing. Only that stupid Alistair sticks like a sore finger in my all girls group. I want lady tank without having to play one.

Actually i thought it over, and turning alistair in a lady would cause problems with the story towards the end of the game (not saying where to avoid spoilers, but you probably know what I mean).

It's probably safer to make a completely new companion, but being in my first playthrough, I still have to throughly explore the toolset to see what can and cannot be done. I have a lot of experience in creating companions in Oblivion, but given the potential for companion dialogue and romance in DA:O making a really good companion with spoken dialogue, personal quest and romance options (yes, including sex, why not) is quite another kind of undertaking. Maybe my long past experience as a voice acting director would prove useful... we'll have to see.

I was (half) joking of course.
Being on my 11th playthrough, I dont pay attention to a story anymore, I am just playing with different combat options now. Since I do like to have one solid group I am used to, Alistair is inevitable tank for me.
And being racist and sexist , I like to keep my party human, and I would even more so like to have it female only. Especially after *esc*-ing Alistairs whining in 10 games, somebody new would be a refreshment.
But I am happy with the game as it is really, I think I got most out of my money and I am still having fun

[Ambaryerno]

YEAH! Let's interject twenty-first century morality into a MEDIEVAL fantasy world.



I'm not at all sexist, but if you're going to roleplay, then ROLEPLAY. It's a simple fact of the Frankish-derived Western Medieval culture these games draw from: women were treated as second-class, if THAT. As long as you're drawing from Western Europe as your primary inspiration it SHOULD be abnormal, noteworthy or outright shocking and scandalous for a female character to be attempting to exercise any sort of equality to males. You most CERTAINLY should not be seeing rank-and-file women soldiers.



Now if you're basing a game or culture around the Celtic or Germanic societies that would be something else entirely since women under those systems had a far greater degree of equality. For example, women in Anglo-Saxon England had CONSIDERABLY greater power and autonomy than a woman of the same period in continental Western Europe. After the Norman Conquest this was stripped from them by the--you guessed it--Frankish-descended culture of the Norman French.



DAO is set in a world that very obviously draws from the state of Western Europe of the 14th and 15th centuries. There's little to no racial or gender equality in the game because there was no racial or gender equality in the world from which it was derived.

[FlintlockJazz]

Ambaryerno wrote...

YEAH! Let's interject twenty-first century morality into a MEDIEVAL fantasy world.

I'm not at all sexist, but if you're going to roleplay, then ROLEPLAY. It's a simple fact of the Frankish-derived Western Medieval culture these games draw from: women were treated as second-class, if THAT. As long as you're drawing from Western Europe as your primary inspiration it SHOULD be abnormal, noteworthy or outright shocking and scandalous for a female character to be attempting to exercise any sort of equality to males. You most CERTAINLY should not be seeing rank-and-file women soldiers.

Now if you're basing a game or culture around the Celtic or Germanic societies that would be something else entirely since women under those systems had a far greater degree of equality. For example, women in Anglo-Saxon England had CONSIDERABLY greater power and autonomy than a woman of the same period in continental Western Europe. After the Norman Conquest this was stripped from them by the--you guessed it--Frankish-descended culture of the Norman French.

DAO is set in a world that very obviously draws from the state of Western Europe of the 14th and 15th centuries. There's little to no racial or gender equality in the game because there was no racial or gender equality in the world from which it was derived.

In which case there shouldn't be any female mages either.  Oh and Ferelden is partially based on anglo-saxon culture but mainly on FANTASY: in the lore itself it presents women as being more equal than perhaps modern day civilisation, and can hold positions that men are not allowed into (high rank in the priesthood).  There is plenty of equality in the game, perhaps too much already as the elves are not mistreated enough ingame to reflect the lore but that is a different discussion.

[Schneidend]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yet somehow they have managed to go with the stereotypes still, and done it in several games now.  Of all the NPCs in BG2 the only male mage out of the whole lot was Edwin, an evil mage, while the rest were female and the closest you could get to a warrior woman was Jaheira, a druid. 

Jan was a Chaotic Neutral Illusionist/Thief, providing a male mage. Jaheira was a Fighter/Druid and could therefore wear heavy armor and fight with swords and shields. Also, you forgot Mazzy, the halfling pure-class Fighter.

Ambaryerno wrote...

<Rant Snipped.>

Except that it's fairly obvious women are allowed to fill infantry roles in the Dragon Age
universe without people raising a stink? There's quite a few women at
the Ostagar battle, Sophia Dryden was the commander of the Grey Wardens and had the respect and admiration of her dominantly male peers, and Ferelden's history has a great many warrior women like Andrastae, Moragain'nae(sp?), and the Rebel Queen whose name I've forgotten.

Modifié par Schneidend, 04 janvier 2010 - 04:56 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Schneidend wrote...

Jan was a Chaotic Neutral Illusionist/Thief, providing a male mage. Jaheira was a Fighter/Druid and could therefore wear heavy armor and fight with swords and shields. Also, you forgot Mazzy, the halfling pure-class Fighter.

Yeah, I think my memory's going in my old age.   Considering that Mazzy was one of my favourites you'd think I'd remember her at least.  I still hold that Jaheira doesn't count since she was more a druid than fighter, but that's pretty much irrelevant due to Mazzy still being there.  I'm gonna go and hide under my desk now and hope no one else notices my mistake.

[Schneidend]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Yeah, I think my memory's going in my old age.   Considering that Mazzy was one of my favourites you'd think I'd remember her at least.  I still hold that Jaheira doesn't count since she was more a druid than fighter, but that's pretty much irrelevant due to Mazzy still being there.  I'm gonna go and hide under my desk now and hope no one else notices my mistake.

No worries, Jazz. I must, however, disagree vehemently on the subject of Jaheira. She always ended up being the tankiest member of my melee squads when I brought her along due to Iron Skin and full plate mail. Even Korgan with a tower shield can't compete with Jaheira completely shrugging off a claw swipe from a dragon.