70 réponses à ce sujet

[Kileyan]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

Remind me what it even was? Was it the find resource nodes, in order to be able to buy potions?

Find recipes. Find resources. Go to crafting bench and buy potions, bombs, and runes.

Ahh I wasn't sure, it is as I remembered. So you like the less clutter part, just find a node and you are set, no reason to open every chest and collect 400 elf roots and dozens of other plant and animal parts? I kinda liked that part to. I just found that it was a bit strange to find the ingredients, find or pay heavily for the recipes, and in the end still pay for the potions. It was an odd system since in most cases you found more heal potions that the timer would let you use, and the other items were so expensive that you would only do it for a playthrough where you guy was an expert potion tosser, which the game didn't really support.

I'm all for less clutter though, a good point of the system.

[Chromie]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

DA2 has a worst crafting system than WoW. It's like Bioware had that in mind when creating it. It's a shopping list and nothing more. Bioware should talke a look at Arcanum's and Vagrant Story's crafting system. Well maybe not Vagrant Story I think the people here who actually thinking DA2's crafting is good would probably **** and maon at Vagrant Story's complex system. Knights of the Old Republic 2 had a decent crafting system that improved upon the original which would also be a major upgrade from DA2.

Just going to copy something from Obsidian's forum...

Arcanumwrote...
We're approaching the Crafting & Enchanting stretch goal, so I thought it'd be a good time to discuss mechanics.  Arcanum, in my humble opinion, had one of the best crafting systems out of cRPGs I have played. For those who haven't played this title, here's a quick recapitulation :  The general concept was simple - characters acquired various item schematics by spending of character points in the appropriate discipline. However, some had to be found - either in shops or in various locations in the game (some would be notoriously hard to locate). It was then simply a matter of finding ingredients to create the desired item :




But here's where it got interesting :

1) Lots of variation

There were eight disciplines (Herbology, Chemistry, Electric, Explosives, Gun Smithy, Mechanical, Therapeutics and Smithy) in the game, with each discipline having seven degrees within it. And that's not counting found schematics.

2) Not limited to equipment upgrades

While some of the disciplines offered just that (i.e. better armour), it was not a general rule. That brings us to the next point.

3) Consumables and utility equipment

That, I feel, was the strongest part of this system. Most of the schematics were of various consumables or other assorted amenities. For an instance, the player could craft :

a) various grenades (stun, flash, fire, acid, smoke etc.), 
substances that could benefit the player (buffs : combat and non-combat) or harm their foes (poisons),
c) traps,
d) various useful gadgets (better lockpicks, lanterns, projectile reflecting shields, trap detectors etc.),
e) resources (bullets, batteries etc.)
f) even pets (automatons).

In short - all sorts of useful (or somewhat less so) items, with wildly different combat and non-combat applications.

4) Mixed crafting

Some found schematics required having an expertise in two disciplines - e.g. machined plate required advanced knowledge in the fields of Smithy and Mechanical.

Arcanum you also couldn't just buy grenades you could only find them which made crafting a great source various grenades. Dragon Age could do the same with certain explosive flask or such items.


Kotor 2 allowed us to break down intem into basic components which we could then turn into other or improved items, the amount of components and the types of items available were dependent on the crafter's level in the respective skill. It was a simple but much better system because it allowed us take all our useless junk, gear and weapons and salvage them and create items we couldn't buy or create crystals, alloys and such. It didn't distract from the core gameplay or required us to hunt down materials all over the place. DA2 tried to do this and was terrible imo. DA2 and Origins for that matter had not only alot of junk loot but also a ton of useless gear that dropped from enemies having a crafting system that alllows us to break down the items in basic components and creating items, potions, gear, weapons on rune from them would give an alternate way to get such gear. It would also make junk loot useful in some capacity.

Modifié par Skelter192, 20 novembre 2012 - 05:50 .

[Anomaly-]

DA:O style, without a doubt. I made a thread about this months back. http://social.biowar...ndex/11161755/1

Ultimately, what I really didn't like about DA2's system was that it required no skill investment on the character's part, meaning that it did absolutely nothing to contribute to defining that character and their strengths/weaknesses; and it was really just a glorified vendor system, meaning that it did nothing to offer any gameplay that differs in any way from an archer buying arrows, or any other class buying healing/lyrium potions. It was redundant and largely pointless.

Realmzmaster wrote...

I prefer the system in DA2. The system in DAO got to be tedious. Once the gamer knew where the unlimited resources were it did not matter. For example the Circle has unlimited lyrium dust. Ruck has unlimited deep mushrooms. Other vendors have unlimited other ingredients.

That's simple to fix. They just need to figure out how to balance a system of respawning containers in various areas, under various conditions. Also do more to make the finding of recipes and discovery of formulas more interesting. This may be more viable if DA3 has more of an adventure element, as has been hinted.

I would then set one companion I rarely used to make potions (max that companion in Herbalism).

Having the potency of a crafted potion be affected by the user's skill in them would alleviate that.

A real crafting system would allow for trial and error. The ability to discover potions and increase their potency.

I'm with you here, and that's why I feel that DA:O was much closer to being on the right track, as you could at least invest skill points into the craft. The system just needs to be expanded and refined. Have investment affect potency. That's one of the first things I changed when modding DA:O.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think alchemy in Skyrim is a good benchmark for all crafting in games, period. It allows any potion to be crafted with the right ingredients, but it requires the player to experiment, either by actually ingesting the ingredients or by just
making potions with them. In addition, the strength and the amount of negative effects are determined by skill, so even a walk through with all of the alchemy traits can't help a low-level potion brewer.

Completely agree. The vast majority of my Skyrim playthroughs have gone the alchemy route, and I modded the perk tree to have about 6 times as much investment potential (so that you can truly specialize in it), and include some added functionality.

What I really appreciate about investing in alchemy in Skyrim, is that the gameplay differs enough from other routes to make you feel like an actual alchemist. In addition, it gives the character clear strengths and weaknesses. Because I've invested so much in potion making, I've neglected other skills. Therefore, I do exceptionally well against creatures and humanoids, but I struggle more with undead who are immune to poisons. This actually contributes something to my character. It gives meaning and justification to my choices. DA2's "crafting" didn't allow for any of that.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 20 novembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

Skelter192 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

DA2 has a worst crafting system than WoW.

Best.

Crafting.

EVER.

Alternatively, both Arcanum and WoW subscribe to the 'gather fifty pieces of worthless crap' syndrome. Boy, I really enjoyed digging around garbage cans in Arcanum for scrap metal and springs. That's some deep role-playing there.

[Melca36]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

DA2 has a worst crafting system than WoW.

Best.

Crafting.

EVER.

Alternatively, both Arcanum and WoW subscribe to the 'gather fifty pieces of worthless crap' syndrome. Boy, I really enjoyed digging around garbage cans in Arcanum for scrap metal and springs. That's some deep role-playing there.

For $60 I dont want things handed to me in a game. I want to work for it. Im not a lazy gamer.   Hopefully they will come up with a reasonable compromise,

[Doctoglethorpe]

I'd like to see skill based crafting return and improved.  It was rather pointless in DA2 but I loved leveling up characters in DAO to have certain job roles in the camp.  I mean really the only truly useful one was the herbalist.  Poison maker was only good for rogues, and traps were plain useless.  But like I said, improved. 

They should do a system like SWTOR's crew skills (but of course not limited to just picking a few, all would be available).  Could have the old three skills (and make traps more useful this time) but could also have more things like enchanting and smithing (armor, weapons, trinkets all seperate specializations).  Each companion would have their speciality and the more they use it they level up their skill and are able to make or augment higher tier items.  Crafting would all be done at the castle and take actual in-game time rather then an instant button click that can be done anywhere (this could also be made dynamic by showing the companion actually working their craft, like say the smith working a forge or a herbalist tinkering with a chemistry set).  Companions can be left doing these jobs while your out adventuring.  While were at it there could be gathering jobs too that you send your unused companions on to gather extra mats for later use in all these crafts.  Say you assign them to go gather herbs.  The longer you leave them out before you recall them to the castle the more they are able to gather.  Maybe you could tell them what kind of herbs you want and different tier herbs take longer to get.  So a simple tier 1 elfroot would only take a couple minutes a piece but some high tier herb for stronger potions might take a solid half hour a piece to collect.  I'd prefer a system where you either just let them stay out gathering until recalled or give them a specific ammount to get before returning rather then SWTORs system where you have to send them back out for each individual mat.  But either way it would be a great addition to the game.

Just some ideas I'd love to see implemented to some extent... You reading Bioware?

[Asch Lavigne]

I dislike having to craft in order to get better weapons and armor throughout the game. Its a huge turnoff for me.

[Chromie]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Alternatively, both Arcanum and WoW subscribe to the 'gather fifty pieces of worthless crap' syndrome.

Kotor 2 does not. Which is still simple enough for players like you who can be bothered to invest time into crafting or rtfm but still more depth than the shopping list crap that DA2 has while making junk/old loot somewhat useful.

Modifié par Skelter192, 20 novembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[Shevy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

DA2 has a worst crafting system than WoW.

Best.

Crafting.

EVER.

Alternatively, both Arcanum and WoW subscribe to the 'gather fifty pieces of worthless crap' syndrome. Boy, I really enjoyed digging around garbage cans in Arcanum for scrap metal and springs. That's some deep role-playing there.

Collecting a huge amount of different materials and then finding recipes to build weapons/armor may not be "deep role-playing" as you put it, but at least it's fun and you can do something besides your quests. Way better than the not existing crafting in DA II.

I would love to see a mix of KoA's and WoW's systems.
From KoA:
-Being able to combine gems to get higher tiered gems which depend on which lower tiers you mixed ( or runes in the case of DA )
-Dismantle all no-unique weapons/armor into the raw materials
From WoW:
-Gain level in your profession through building things
-Drops of common/rare/very rare recipes which are profession level depending

Since we are very likely getting a multiplayer part this could be a good way to include some of the recipes. The builded things should be usable in the singleplayer but clearly don't better than the things you find there. But they could provide  some cool aesthetics.

To summarize: I want a crafting system with depth in which you can lose time and have fun with it. If this isn't possible or not the way you want to do it BioWare, than I would like to see the resources be put in other categories and scrap crafting at all. For me, the loss of DA II's "crafting" wouldn't have made any difference.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 20 novembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Roflbox]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

DA2 has a worst crafting system than WoW.

Best.

Crafting.

EVER.

Alternatively, both Arcanum and WoW subscribe to the 'gather fifty pieces of worthless crap' syndrome. Boy, I really enjoyed digging around garbage cans in Arcanum for scrap metal and springs. That's some deep role-playing there.

Sounds like it's too much for your mind to handle which if so I understand. Man, I'd hate to see you try Everquest 2 crafting.

And yea finding crap all over the place and making stuff out of them can make for some fun roleplay. People do it in Elder Scrolls all the time. Hell check the Elder Scrolls thread in the offtopic section with people showing off their collections of only food or ingots. I collect everything to craft because my character is too poor and is trying to make gold without having to kill anyone or maybe my character is seeking to improve their smithing ability. My mageesque character is going around soul trapping people to improve her magical abilites. Why should crafting not be considered a part of roleplay?

Modifié par Roflbox, 20 novembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[Cyberarmy]

Second SS is a bit distrubing Roflbox


On topic, anything better than DA2s so called crafting. Its just a boring shoplist...

[Maria Caliban]

Shevy_001 wrote...

... but at least it's fun...

Yes, some people find it fun. I am not one of those people. If I thought it was fun, I wouldn't advocate a completely different system.

Roflbox wrote...

Sounds like it's too much for your mind to handle which if so I understand.

That you consider opening crates and hitting 'loot all' a strenuous mental activity is actually quite sad.

[Emzamination]

I have no opinion on the subject. I never crafted anything besides health/mana potions in both games.

Modifié par Emzamination, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, some people find it fun. I am not one of those people. If I thought it was fun, I wouldn't advocate a completely different system.

I think you may enjoy a scenario where you can find ingredient sources for a potion vendor, then. While I, personally, would prefer, having the option to use the ingredients myself. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

You could find ingredients and give them to a vendor, who expands their stock and offers more potions for you to spend gold on. I, on the other hand, could invest money in equipment and invest skill points in alchemy (or have a suitable companion do so) and create my potions for free (or, at least, cheaper... again, having to pay for potions when you've gathered the ingredients, equipment and receipes is... odd...). This approach can have two venues for handling that element of gameplay (SHOCK! AMAZEMENT!) and let those who don't want to collect and experiment simply pay for their items/potions or spend skill points and let's those who really enjoy crafting and creating a character who is entrenched in that style. Its a win-win.

That you consider opening crates and hitting 'loot all' a strenuous mental activity is actually quite sad.

Its not the looting, Maria. Its knowing which items have intrinsic worth off the top of your head. Its the thrill of throwing items into a mix and creating a potion you can't even fully identify without drinking it. Its knowing that there are tons of recipes out there, but that some potions are best created and discovered by yourself.

I think you know this is true for some players, just not for you. If I plopped in every romance thread saying "Skyrim had the best romances in a game ever" and my reason why was because it was the most minimalist attempt at romances I'd ever seen, because I hate the emphasis being put on romances recently in games, I'd get heckled out in a heartbeat. 

I think you'd be better advocating strongly for an alternative to crafting in the form of recipe gathering/resource gathering for a vendor. Which, I think, is a really strong, valid option that should be considered and implmented right alongside a strong crafting system.

[vortex216]

I hated the crafting system in Skyrim. I liked Origins because in the middle of the battle, you could switch to Zevran or Morrigan... and BLAM 20 more potions/bombs! However, most of the recipes were not needed. I only made bombs and Health/Lesser Health potions (I play on nightmare too).

You kinda have to "spam" with potions on dao. Enemies did more damage because they attacked at the same speed as you did, more or less. The potions also gave less health than in da2.

[shirespartan]

Poisons, traps, herbalism and crafting all need to be included and ofcourse optional

[Realmzmaster]

I like crafting in games. What I do not like is tedium. For example the rune crafting in Awakenings was a nice idea. The execution was mind numbing. Creating a paragon rune was not fun the way the system was implemented (imho). IYou could not just create a grandmaster rune without making all the other runes first in that regards the DA2 system was an improvement.

There is also no way to experiment with creating a rune with different effects or potency. The Dragon Age system of crafting does not allow for failure or attempting to create a potion or any item above your level. Other games had a possibility of success based on how close the PC was to the actual level. There was a chance of failure and having the potion or trap etc kill the PC or severely injure them. That would at least take out the tedium.

The character could try to create a potion above their current level of expertise and be awarded xp if successful. This also could alleviate the tedium.

The DAO way is the PC find or buy the recipe. Find or buy the ingredients then craft (or have a companion) the potion or item.

The DA2 way is find or buy the recipe. Find the resource (you do not have to buy it. In fact you can only buy it if the Black Emporium is installed which has the ones your character missed). Pay to have the item crafted.

Not that much different between the two except your have one of the companions or PC take points in Herbalism.

[Fast Jimmy]

It showcases a non-combat skill. That says, to me, volumes in the game design.

DA2 only requires leveling up combat. That's it. And that, by extension, is how the game felt - everything was determined and resolved by combat.

That's a poor RPG game design, in my opinion.

[Todd23]

Roflbox wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dragon Age 2. Best crafting system in any game. Ever.

DA2 has a worst crafting system than WoW.

Best.

Crafting.

EVER.

Alternatively, both Arcanum and WoW subscribe to the 'gather fifty pieces of worthless crap' syndrome. Boy, I really enjoyed digging around garbage cans in Arcanum for scrap metal and springs. That's some deep role-playing there.

Sounds like it's too much for your mind to handle which if so I understand. Man, I'd hate to see you try Everquest 2 crafting.

And yea finding crap all over the place and making stuff out of them can make for some fun roleplay. People do it in Elder Scrolls all the time. Hell check the Elder Scrolls thread in the offtopic section with people showing off their collections of only food or ingots. I collect everything to craft because my character is too poor and is trying to make gold without having to kill anyone or maybe my character is seeking to improve their smithing ability. My mageesque character is going around soul trapping people to improve her magical abilites. Why should crafting not be considered a part of roleplay?

Note to self:  Do this to my house.

[CrazyRah]

I really hope there's a decent crafting system in DA:I. The one in DA2 got to be the worst system i've encountered in a game so far. Lackluster isn't even good enough to cover it. I would be really pleased if they at least here learned from Skyrim on crafting systems. It's for me engaging and fun, finding materials and then using them to craft my own stuff and even experiment to find out new stuff. That was just so good

[wsandista]

I'm in the middle of an Arcanum playthrough and I have to say I love the crafting system. Actually being able to use the random loot is a great concept. IIRC KOTOR2 also had an excellent system that allowed you to salvage parts from items you no longer use, which is a great idea.

Anything but the DA2 "crafting", which was more of a special order system than crafting.

[Realmzmaster]

Crafting is fine as long as Bioware provides a system where the gamer does not have to craft if the gamer chooses not to craft. The PC finds the recipe and resources and pays to have the actual work done. As Fast Jimmy stated a vendor system.

If the gamer has to craft to progress in the game that to me shows poor rpg design. If that is the case then I would prefer DA2 system of crafting or none at all. As I stated in a post above one of the optional quests (Crafting the King Killer antidote) in DAO required 4 points in Herbalism to complete the quest along with getting the ingredients. As long as the quest is optional it is fine. A quest like that in the main story would not be fine unless there is another way to solve it. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 21 novembre 2012 - 02:43 .

[ashesandwine]

I never liked any form of crafting in any Dragon Age games. Just let me buy and find potions.

[Dabrikishaw]

Origins crafting was tedious until you knew where the unlimited ingredients were, then it becomes a matter of wanting to go back to each vender for some.

I much preferred Dragon Age 2's system.