155 réponses à ce sujet

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Aolbain wrote...

If some people goes of like a tactical nuke in a moment of weakness they need to controlled. The Circles needs to be reformed but are unfortunately necessary.

Say what you will about their morals, especially their treatment of elves, but the Tevinter Imperium manages to remain a functioning and thriving society in which mages are the ruling class. Even with blood magic and deals with demons, and seemingly every Tevinter mage we've met being chaotic evil, their civilization is hardly tearing itself apart; slowly rotting apart from the inside, perhaps, but not actively in a state of great turmoil. The flipside can also be true, even if I find the Imperium more fascinating than actually admirable.

On the question of reformation, you might have a point. I think allowing them to organize into self-governed Circles, making them in essence like the Jedi Order in Star Wars, could work. Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

With good leadership and guidance under strong-willed, experienced mages they could be less prisoners and second-class citizens and more an elite force working in the interest of the greater good. Not every Jedi will fall and not every mage will become an Abomination or blood mage.

[goofyomnivore]

I'm still interested in it. It creates a moral dilemma for me. I think The Circle needs to exist. Something needs to keep the mages in check, but restricting the freedoms of someone because they exist in a different way is unsettling to me. I don't know how to fix it, so I'm interested to see/hear solutions for fixing it.

[MichaelStuart]

The mage conundrum never interested me.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

PinkysPain wrote...

snip

If the problem of the mage conundrum is adequately resolved in Inquisition then I believe it will be time to move on to other issues. I'm certainly hoping that the story being told with be contained within a single game, but that's a somewhat different issue.

I'd like to see a future DA game where I can play as an elf slave living in the Tevinter Imperium and either leading or at least getting heavily caught up in a wide-spread slave revolt while a greater threat looms on the horizon.

I'd also like to see a game that explores the idea of what happens when the Grey Wardens get caught up in politics and find themselves in the midst of a struggle where they are dealing with a problem other than Darkspawn or a Blight. I think the Anderfels would be the ideal setting for such a scenario, since the cold, single-mindedness of Weisshaupt Fortress' Wardens would make them ideal for a portion of the order getting involved in something that isn't traditionally in their job description; it would make for a rift in their ranks, I would think, adding to the problem of dealing with the greater threat in much the same way the Fereldan Civil War made uniting against the Blight so problematic in Origins.

So there you have it. Do I think the mage issue is important? Yes. Do I think it should hijack the rest of the series and be the front and center issue forever after? Hell no. Even if it's never properly resolved (and I suspect it may not be, especially with mages being a playable class and all; I can't foresee any kind of final, permanent solution, like mortal access to magic being forever cut off), I would like it to take a back seat at some point to other issues/ storylines/ plots/ themes.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 19 novembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[MisterJB]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
On the question of reformation, you might have a point. I think allowing them to organize into self-governed Circles, making them in essence like the Jedi Order in Star Wars, could work. Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

Please, ask the elves of Denerim or Kirkwall how allowing humans to police their own kind has worked out for them.

[Inquisitor Arc]

MisterJB wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
On the question of reformation, you might have a point. I think allowing them to organize into self-governed Circles, making them in essence like the Jedi Order in Star Wars, could work. Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

Please, ask the elves of Denerim or Kirkwall how allowing humans to police their own kind has worked out for them.

That and jedi or sith do not risk demonic possessio, and thus unleashing even more demons into the world. The mages of Thedas are more similar to the psykers of 40k, and that setting is far worse.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
On the question of reformation, you might have a point. I think allowing them to organize into self-governed Circles, making them in essence like the Jedi Order in Star Wars, could work. Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

Please, ask the elves of Denerim or Kirkwall how allowing humans to police their own kind has worked out for them.

But also ask the Circles how the templars being the only police force worked out for them.

We need both. I know the mage conundrum still interests me. I understand the threat of abominations and how dangerous they are, but I also fully expect every templar to be held accountable for his or her own actions. If the templars are the ones pushing mages into desperate acts, then the templars share the blame as well.

That's not saying that templars are only to blame. But they share it with the mages who are guilty.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
On the question of reformation, you might have a point. I think allowing them to organize into self-governed Circles, making them in essence like the Jedi Order in Star Wars, could work. Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

Please, ask the elves of Denerim or Kirkwall how allowing humans to police their own kind has worked out for them.

But also ask the Circles how the templars being the only police force worked out for them.

Not "but", "and". That example works equally well.
If the mages are allowed to police themselves, many will ignore crimes commited against mundanes or commit those crimes themselves.

[Drasanil]

On the whole I find the mage 'dilemma' to be rather tedious, in part because circles are actually a rather sensible solution to the problem. It's not their existence or purpose that is actually harmful to mages, rather the contrary they're their to keep both mages and civilians safe. The real heart of the issue is that the circle system is one that lacks proper oversight and therefor lends itself to easy abuse by those that administer it. It's a question of degrees not outright good or bad, and both fan camps are prone to taking it to that extreme. What's truly tedious about the mage debate is that it's driven by both extremes of the spectrum and results in nothing but circular arguments and head banging.

Now what I do find interesting about the mage problem in Thedas, is that contrary to most other settings, the real threat mages pose are not those fireball tossing psychos or possessed monsters, they're eventually found out and rooted out. The real threat is the much more subtle enemy with in vibe which concerns perfectly sane and rational mages doing what any one else would do 99%+ of the time; look out for number one.

The true danger is having an otherwise perfectly normal mage decide that using a bit of magic to charm or beguile his way to a better life. The inherent slippery slope and much wider societal damage that could cause is huge, combined with the fact that if he/she is even reasonably subtle or competent it could take ages for it to be discovered if ever.

[MisterJB]

Drasanil wrote...
Now what I do find interesting about the mage problem in Thedas, is that contrary to most other settings, the real threat mages pose are not those fireball tossing psychos or possessed monsters, they're eventually found out and rooted out. The real threat is the much more subtle enemy with in vibe which concerns perfectly sane and rational mages doing what any one else would do 99%+ of the time; look out for number one.

The true danger is having an otherwise perfectly normal mage decide that using a bit of magic to charm or beguile his way to a better life. The inherent slippery slope and much wider societal damage that could cause is huge, combined with the fact that if he/she is even reasonably subtle or competent it could take ages for it to be discovered if ever.

Agreed. Bioware seems overly concerned with Abominations and Tevinter when the real danger is the potential the mages possess to condemn mundanes to the lives of second class citizens through completely legal means.

[hexaligned]

I got enough of it in DAO, DA2 sort of just beat you over the head with it, and the concept itself into the ground, at least imo. I wasn't thrilled to see it was going to be the major focus yet again for DAI. Thats gut reaction sight unseen though, I know Bioware has the talent to pull something interesting out of it, just remains to be seen if they will.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

In DA2 something was at work that was only hinted at (Enigma of Kirkwall codices) and Legacy. Kirkwall, one of the more stricter, and eventually abusive Circles, had one of the highest instances of blood mages. Why? And not only mages were possessed. Did somebody deliberately set it up for some sort of catastrophic failure? Or was somebody just so incredibly stupid as to think that putting a Circle in a former prison for slaves was actually an intelligent thing to do? Whatever was going on that we couldn't see, I think the Qunari were affected by it.

Also, when the Circles were originally formed they may not have been the prisons they are today. Safe places for young mages to learn to control their powers with checks to keep things friom getting out of hand is logical. A safe place for dangerous studies is also logical. You wouldn't want the dwarf from Awakening to experiment in the middle of the Denerim marketplace, would you?

There are already some tools to protect against magic and blood magic. Remember the basement door in the Mage origin? It was somehow warded so that magic wouldn't work. Then there's the Litany of Adralla to protect against blood magic. And my non-mage wardens could use it. If these tools were more widely disseminated mages wouldn't have to be so rabidly feared. And as Alistair proved, many more non-Templars could be taught the skills to at least counter your average mage run amok.

Why hasn't the Chantry or some other organization been looking into an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility? Something a bit less drastic. Certainly many mages and templars would be willing to work together towards that goal. Maybe the Chantry wouldn't like it, but if the templars are supposed to protect mages then many of them should be willing.

As far as the Grey Wardens are concerned, well they still have centuries to worry about no more darkspawn. Even if there are no more Archdemons as long as the darkspawn create broodmothers and sometimes beings like the Architect arise then the Grey Wardens are needed. What if there are more Corypheus types imprisoned somewhere?

BTW, yes the conflict is still interesting to me. No, I don't think it will be resolved in one game, and I'm fine with it as background. This does not mean some of the quests couldn't address some of the questions which arise out of the conflict.

Modifié par QueenPurpleScrap, 19 novembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[Nerevar-as]

Tiger Ace 32 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
On the question of reformation, you might have a point. I think allowing them to organize into self-governed Circles, making them in essence like the Jedi Order in Star Wars, could work. Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

Please, ask the elves of Denerim or Kirkwall how allowing humans to police their own kind has worked out for them.

That and jedi or sith do not risk demonic possessio, and thus unleashing even more demons into the world. The mages of Thedas are more similar to the psykers of 40k, and that setting is far worse.

Falling to the Dark Side is the SW equivalent of Demon possession. And the consequences? It looks you can´t go an asari lifetime without the Sith reducing half the galaxy to ashes and enslaving their inhabitants.

[Twisted Path]

relhart wrote...

I got enough of it in DAO, DA2 sort of just beat you over the head with it, and the concept itself into the ground, at least imo. I wasn't thrilled to see it was going to be the major focus yet again for DAI.

Gotta agree with this. Honestly I never had much interest in the chantry/mage dynamic even in Origins. Then DA2 had all that horrible ham-fisted stuff like "The Tranquil Solution." Blech.

[PinkysPain]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
Say what you will about their morals, especially their treatment of elves, but the Tevinter Imperium manages to remain a functioning and thriving society in which mages are the ruling class.

That mages lead collectively doesn't mean they are free individually ...

Allowing mages to deal with their own kind who've gone bad in the same way the Jedi deal with Sith and other dark-siders by creating an enforcement organization within theCircles could work rather than having religious fanatics like the Templars holding a sword at their throats at all times.

Still not an interesting story to me, replace one form of fasciscm with another ... meh.

I want to be a hero, vanquish antagonists and save the innocent ... if the grim dark stuff has to be there I'd like it to be relatively easily ignored.

[Plaintiff]

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's interesting to me. All problems related to bigotry and oppression are interesting to me.

I will stop discussing them when all such issues are resolved in real life and in fiction. So, never.

I think there's already a realistic alternative to depriving the mages of their freedom, and that's to stop damn well doing it.

There's no "solution", at least, not the kind you're looking for. Even if mages could find an effective way to ward off possession, magic would still be dangerous. People would still want to imprison mages for that fact. Not that humans have ever actually needed an excuse to be jerks.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. As much as I loathe the way some mages are treated, there is no good alternative to the Circles.

Says who? Not me. If the many can't survive without being oppressive bigots, then they don't deserve to live.

Everyone has the right to defend their lives and their freedom with all the tools at their disposal. If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

After DA2 I see no reason not to support the templars 100 percent. 99 percent of the mages in DA2 turned out to be blood mages, or psychotics.

99% of the mages we met in quests were blood mages or psychotics. That does not account for every mage living in the Gallows or Anders who is a spirit-possessed terrorist.

Quite right. But I can`t really comment on stuff thats not included in the game, can I?

So if I get mugged by the first and only black man I've ever met, that means it's okay to hate and fear black people indiscriminately?

[Plaintiff]

PinkysPain wrote...
I want to be a hero, vanquish antagonists and save the innocent

I would think it was pretty clear by now that Bioware doesn't intend to tell this kind of story in the Dragon Age franchise.

[Direwolf0294]

I'm still interested in it. So many fantasy games, books and movies seem to ignore that, holy heck, there are people who can throw around fire balls and lightning like nothing, how are normal people meant to deal with that? It's nice to have a game that actually deals with it.

[BouncyFrag]

Not. One. Bit. I find the Tevinter Imperium, the Qunari, and even the political scene of Orlais to be more compelling as well as what Morrigan and her 'mother' are up to. Sure, there may be elements of the game related to the mage conflict, but IMO, less would most definitely be more in regards to this.

[nightscrawl]

PinkysPain wrote...

... I hope it gets put in the background again in DA3.

I highly doubt it...

As far as "interesting" goes, I've never really thought it was interesting, nor is it a conundrum to me. No matter which side you're on, you have to see that the current system is unsustainable. However, I am curious to see where Bioware is going to go with it in DA3, and I do have a hope that after that we can move onto some other things.


[edit]
I suppose I should add that by "not interesting" I don't mean to imply that I find it boring, only that the conflict is not of particular interest, enough to set it apart from any of the other myriad conflicts we have to deal with in Thedas. I like the issue as a story element, in the same way that I like the Wardens and darkspawn. These are all just a part of Thedas to me, with all of those things having an equal weight in my mind.

By comparison, I find the Qunari to be very interesting, probably because their way of life is so foreign to me, making me want to learn more about them.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 20 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm still interested in it.

[Drasanil]

Plaintiff wrote...
So if I get mugged by the first and only black man I've ever met, that means it's okay to hate and fear black people indiscriminately?

Yeah, maybe if black men had the ability to control your thoughts or literally turn people inside out by looking at them funny. This is a perfect example of what I meant by' extremes' in my previous post. Some people are simply incapable of recognising the difference between between a racial/sexual/cultural minority which pose no actual reasonnable threat to any one in any way, shape or form and a fictional minority that have the literal power to make a person's brain melt out of their ears with a mean look.

Have you considered that video game issues aren't necessarily the same thing as IRL politics/issues? 

[Plaintiff]

Drasanil wrote...
Yeah, maybe if black men had the ability to control your thoughts or literally turn people inside out by looking at them funny.

And why should I assume that any mage is going to do those things? 

This is a perfect example of what I meant by' extremes' in my previous post. Some people are simply incapable of recognising the difference between between a racial/sexual/cultural minority which pose no actual reasonnable threat to any one in any way, shape or form and a fictional minority that have the literal power to make a person's brain melt out of their ears with a mean look.

I'm perfectly capable of recognising the difference. The comparison is no less apt.

The fact that mages and magic pose a threat is irrelevent. Simply posing a threat by the mere fact of your existence is not a crime. Locking people up for things they might do is a gross perversion of justice.

Have you considered that video game issues aren't necessarily the same thing as IRL politics/issues?

If the writers didn't want the comparison made, then they shouldn't have marketed the game to a modern audience.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Is the mage conundrum still interesting to anyone?

Nope. Not me. I do not favor mages. In PVP, I prefer to wrestle those weaklings with brute force but they would always run away, kite like a chicken and drive me nuts. It's a good things templars could drain their mana so they could understand how hopeless their magic are. But then again, I despise religious fools who abuse power in the name of their nonsense faith, spread lies for their own greed and poison people mind into obedient dogs. Oops! I mean heretics.

I would be interested to purge the mages, templars and the chantry followers if they disturb my peace, my good wine and my fine mistresses in Thedas.