155 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Ultimately, the Chantry cannot be involved at any level. The most unbiased source you'll probably find in Thedas, given the political climate, would be the indivdual crowns of each individual country.

While I acknowledge that some templars have indeed abused mages and that allowing some smages into their ranks might help solve this, I disagree with your assesment that the Chantry can't be involved and that the crown is preferable.
I say this because the Chantry has not abused its power. They control the single greatest force in Thedas and what do they do with it? Keep it locked. Send small groups of them and only when it's to fight threats against the entire human race such as the Qunari or the Blight. There are no secret squads of blood mages who serve the Divine and feeding on peasants.
For all the criticism it receives, the Chantry has proved time and again that they mean what they say, they stick by their ideals. "Magic is dangerous and must be contained." and that is what they do.
Place it in the hands of the crown and, suddenly, you have ferelden and orlesian squads of blood mages fighting against each other and using peasants and enemy prisioner to fuel their spells.

Nice speculations mate. But not even in the medieval times they would want a police force like the templars. their flaws are so many i cannot even call them a police force and much more a group of armed thugs.

[Shadow Fox]

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Ultimately, the Chantry cannot be involved at any level. The most unbiased source you'll probably find in Thedas, given the political climate, would be the indivdual crowns of each individual country.

While I acknowledge that some templars have indeed abused mages and that allowing some smages into their ranks might help solve this, I disagree with your assesment that the Chantry can't be involved and that the crown is preferable.
I say this because the Chantry has not abused its power. They control the single greatest force in Thedas and what do they do with it? Keep it locked. Send small groups of them and only when it's to fight threats against the entire human race such as the Qunari or the Blight. There are no secret squads of blood mages who serve the Divine and feeding on peasants.
For all the criticism it receives, the Chantry has proved time and again that they mean what they say, they stick by their ideals. "Magic is dangerous and must be contained." and that is what they do.
Place it in the hands of the crown and, suddenly, you have ferelden and orlesian squads of blood mages fighting against each other and using peasants and enemy prisioner to fuel their spells.

Nice speculations mate. But not even in the medieval times they would want a police force like the templars. their flaws are so many i cannot even call them a police force and much more a group of armed thugs.

You mean the same medieval times that burned folks at the stake for heresy?

[PinkysPain]

Plaintiff wrote...
I would think it was pretty clear by now that Bioware doesn't intend to tell this kind of story in the Dragon Age franchise.

I had no problem with DA:O ...

Modifié par PinkysPain, 20 novembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[iSignIn]

There is a simple, perfect solution. Kill everyone in Thedas. That's completely fair and without bias.

You're welcome.

[Navasha]

Filament wrote...

The qunari side hasn't been explored a great deal. I think they really know the proper way to treat a mage.

Honestly, the Chantry and Qunari treat mages equally.   Both are caged.  Both are heavily controlled.   Both are killed if they break any rules.   Both are brainwashed into aiding their oppressors. 

That was supposed to be the irony you saw in the Qunari mage quest.   Petrice wanted to show how "evil" mages were treated by the Qunari, when in fact it mirrored exactly how the Chantry treats them.

[Sable Rhapsody]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Personally, I think the way the conflict was handled in DA2 muddied the waters so that it is difficult to get a handle on the situation. Both sides were insane - Meredith, literally, and then that completely bizarre decision by the writers to have Orsinio turn into an abomination, immediately after my party had thoroughly defeated the Templars... "Oh, no, there is no hope, let me turn into a disgusting monster composed of dead body guards..." But I just killed all those people, dimwad!

This was my feeling as well.  After getting (relatively) nice and reasonable templars and mages alike in DA:O, we get to see boh at their absolute worst in DA2.  Makes it hard to sympathize or side with either.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but of all the named Kirkwall mages we see for more than a second or two, only three are never caught up in blood magic, possession, or some other form of murderous insanity.  Bethany, Ella, and Emile de Launcet.  That's...a pretty damn short list.  

[The Hierophant]

Navasha wrote...

Honestly, the Chantry and Qunari treat mages equally.   Both are caged.  Both are heavily controlled.   Both are killed if they break any rules.   Both are brainwashed into aiding their oppressors.

That was supposed to be the irony you saw in the Qunari mage quest.  Petrice wanted to show how "evil" mages were treated by the Qunari, when in fact it mirrored exactly how the Chantry treats them.

The Saarebas's lips are stitched shut,  chained up, wear dog collars, and are flat out killed if their Arvaard loses sight of them even for a moment. After playing the mage origin multiple times, reading all collected lore, and multiple playthroughs of DaO & Da2 the comparisons seem forced.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 novembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Navasha wrote...

Honestly, the Chantry and Qunari treat mages equally.   Both are caged.  Both are heavily controlled.   Both are killed if they break any rules.   Both are brainwashed into aiding their oppressors.

That was supposed to be the irony you saw in the Qunari mage quest.  Petrice wanted to show how "evil" mages were treated by the Qunari, when in fact it mirrored exactly how the Chantry treats them.

I got a very different message from the Qunari mage quest, playing both as pro-mage and pro-templar Hawke.  That's the beauty of interpreting a narrative 

"Existence is the only choice.  Asit tal-eb.  It is to be."  

No matter what you do, how high you rise or how low you fall, you cannot change what you are.  If you're a mage, you'll always be a mage.  If you're a Fereldan, you'll always be a Fereldan.  No one will ever let you forget what you are, even after you become Champion, even if you try to forget it yourself.  Given what happens in Acts 2 and 3, I thought of it as a nice bit of tragic foreshadowing.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 21 novembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[CitizenThom]

The problem with the posing of the question... isn't the question itself... it's the limited answers that we're given the ability to make. Surely there are ways to tell a corruptable person from an uncorruptible one. Certianly, any Circle of Mages should be able to strengthen the incorruptability of candidates as well. They're sealed off from the world in the Circle, so they aren't corruptible by contemporary mores outside the Tower's walls.

Instead, we have Circles of Mages, to protect Thedas from Mages, and yet somehow, those very Mages can't be protected from Thedas. The Circle is almost a non-functioning placeholder in order to provide a credible reason for their being friction between Mages and the rest of the world. Either the Mages have always been in complete rebellion, or they have long since made peace. It doesn't make sense that the Circles are the cause of any friction, they're an excuse for whatever pre-existing state already existed.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 21 novembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Navasha wrote...

Filament wrote...

The qunari side hasn't been explored a great deal. I think they really know the proper way to treat a mage.

Honestly, the Chantry and Qunari treat mages equally.   Both are caged.  Both are heavily controlled.   Both are killed if they break any rules.   Both are brainwashed into aiding their oppressors. 

That was supposed to be the irony you saw in the Qunari mage quest.   Petrice wanted to show how "evil" mages were treated by the Qunari, when in fact it mirrored exactly how the Chantry treats them.

That is not Petrice's motivation at all. She doesn't care a bit about either Saarebas or any mage of any kind. All she cares about is to try and paint the Qunari like barbaric heretics. Furthermore, Saarebas is not the only role for a Qunari mage...

[Sable Rhapsody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Furthermore, Saarebas is not the only role for a Qunari mage...

Wait...what other roles are there for a qunari mage?  Other than turning them into that mindless menial laborer thing.

[StElmo]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's interesting to me. All problems related to bigotry and oppression are interesting to me.

I will stop discussing them when all such issues are resolved in real life and in fiction. So, never.

I think there's already a realistic alternative to depriving the mages of their freedom, and that's to stop damn well doing it.

There's no "solution", at least, not the kind you're looking for. Even if mages could find an effective way to ward off possession, magic would still be dangerous. People would still want to imprison mages for that fact. Not that humans have ever actually needed an excuse to be jerks.

Thankyou for an excellent comment, I agree.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Furthermore, Saarebas is not the only role for a Qunari mage...

Wait...what other roles are there for a qunari mage?  Other than turning them into that mindless menial laborer thing.

Unknown. But the writers confirmed that there are mages in Qunari society that isn't Saarebas. They are still watched closely, but apparently they differ enough from Saarebas to warrant distinction.

[Sable Rhapsody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Unknown. But the writers confirmed that there are mages in Qunari society that isn't Saarebas. They are still watched closely, but apparently they differ enough from Saarebas to warrant distinction.

Now THAT is interesting.  Would you mind linking to the dev post/forum entry if you can find it?  I haz a curious 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Unknown. But the writers confirmed that there are mages in Qunari society that isn't Saarebas. They are still watched closely, but apparently they differ enough from Saarebas to warrant distinction.

Now THAT is interesting.  Would you mind linking to the dev post/forum entry if you can find it?  I haz a curious 

The quote is ancient by now. It was on the DA2 story forum I believe, a post by Mary Kirby. It wasn't very specific, it pretty much just said that there are mages in for instance the Ben-Hassrath, and that even they were watched closely by the other Qunari.

[Ausstig]

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Ultimately, the Chantry cannot be involved at any level. The most unbiased source you'll probably find in Thedas, given the political climate, would be the indivdual crowns of each individual country.

While I acknowledge that some templars have indeed abused mages and that allowing some smages into their ranks might help solve this, I disagree with your assesment that the Chantry can't be involved and that the crown is preferable.
I say this because the Chantry has not abused its power. They control the single greatest force in Thedas and what do they do with it? Keep it locked. Send small groups of them and only when it's to fight threats against the entire human race such as the Qunari or the Blight. There are no secret squads of blood mages who serve the Divine and feeding on peasants.
For all the criticism it receives, the Chantry has proved time and again that they mean what they say, they stick by their ideals. "Magic is dangerous and must be contained." and that is what they do.
Place it in the hands of the crown and, suddenly, you have ferelden and orlesian squads of blood mages fighting against each other and using peasants and enemy prisioner to fuel their spells.

Nice speculations mate. But not even in the medieval times they would want a police force like the templars. their flaws are so many i cannot even call them a police force and much more a group of armed thugs.

But if you look at late medevial history it was the nationalisation of 'Inquistions' that lead to abuses, because the crown now had a way nd a pretext to bloodly enforce it's views upon it's enemies, mostly internal ones; Every wonder why it was called the SPAINISH Inquisition or the Dutch Inquisition? It's the names of the nations running it. Like it or not the Chantry did it's job for Thousands of years. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power" . I'd say that the Chantry has done very well with the power it has been given. More so then any king would have.  

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's interesting to me. All problems related to bigotry and oppression are interesting to me.

I will stop discussing them when all such issues are resolved in real life and in fiction. So, never.

I think there's already a realistic alternative to depriving the mages of their freedom, and that's to stop damn well doing it.

There's no "solution", at least, not the kind you're looking for. Even if mages could find an effective way to ward off possession, magic would still be dangerous. People would still want to imprison mages for that fact. Not that humans have ever actually needed an excuse to be jerks.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. As much as I loathe the way some mages are treated, there is no good alternative to the Circles.

Says who? Not me. If the many can't survive without being oppressive bigots, then they don't deserve to live.

Everyone has the right to defend their lives and their freedom with all the tools at their disposal. If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else.

So basically the Templars should have the right to exterminate mages to protect the general populance cause they can?

Is that self-defense? No. Don't be obtuse.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...
Says who? Not me. If the many can't survive without being oppressive bigots, then they don't deserve to live.

Everyone has the right to defend their lives and their freedom with all the tools at their disposal. If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else.

So you think all people who think magic is dangerous and wish to be protected from it should die? This is just pro-magic not anti-bigotry.

[The Six Path of Pain]

No! The way DA2 introduced us to the conflict really bored me.I would rather have a Qunari invasion or another Blight.

[Plaintiff]

BoBear wrote...
So you think all people who think magic is dangerous and wish to be protected from it should die?

This is just pro-magic not anti-bigotry.

Of course not, I specifically used the word "defend", didn't I?

Locking people up for what they might do is not "protection", it's aggression. The Circle is not a defensive measure, it's a pre-emptive attack against people who have committed no crime.

If you lock a random person up in your basement because "I don't want them to punch me in the face", you are the attacker in that situation. If they have to wound or kill you in order to escape, well, then you're just getting precisely what you deserve for infringing on their personal rights in the first place.

A true defensive measure would be getting anti-magic spells installed around your personal property, or taking Templar-style self-defense classes, or learning the Litany of Adralla so you can recite it when you suspect mind control is being used on someone close to you. You have every right to take those measures, they do not infringe on the personal rights of any other individual.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 novembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Herr Uhl]

Navasha wrote...

Honestly, the Chantry and Qunari treat mages equally.

No they don't.  

Both are caged.

One in a literal cage.  

Both are heavily controlled.

Once again, differing degrees.

Both are killed if they break any rules.

This is untrue and you bloody well know it.

Both are brainwashed into aiding their oppressors.

Ok.

That was supposed to be the irony you saw in the Qunari mage quest. Petrice wanted to show how "evil" mages were treated by the Qunari, when in fact it mirrored exactly how the Chantry treats them.

No it wasn't. Petrice wanted you to be caught with the mage and cause a diplomatic incident in order to start hostilities.

[The Elder King]

Navasha wrote...

Filament wrote...

The qunari side hasn't been explored a great deal. I think they really know the proper way to treat a mage.

Honestly, the Chantry and Qunari treat mages equally.   Both are caged.  Both are heavily controlled.   Both are killed if they break any rules.   Both are brainwashed into aiding their oppressors. 

That was supposed to be the irony you saw in the Qunari mage quest.   Petrice wanted to show how "evil" mages were treated by the Qunari, when in fact it mirrored exactly how the Chantry treats them.

The mages in the Circle are not treated in the same way qunari mages are treated.
The qunari mages (at least the type we saw in Kirkwall) had their lips sealed, they were chained and collared. The control the arvaraad exercise on the sareebas is far greater and deeper than the templars exercised on mages (considering that mages, from apprentices to First Enchanters, are able to learn blood magic without the templars knowing it). The mages aren't always killed if they break rules. Anders escaped seven times from the Circle, and he wasn't either locked in Aeonar or tranquilized. Even in Kirkwall, one of the worst Circles, Meredith didn't tranquilized or killed the Starkhaven mages, despite their escape. The sareebas who escaped in the qunari quest in Act 1 should have been killed by the arvaraad, because he was free for a short time. How are those situations similar?
About the brainwashing, I don't agree. Of course the Chantry would like to have their mages all Loyalist. Despite this, the Libertarians was one of the largest factions in the Circle, and they want more freedom and are often against the Chantry's teachings. Anders and Uldred, as well as many mages in the Fereldan Circle, aren't brainwashed, since they want to be free. If they were brainwashed (as the qunari mages are), how can they express opinions completely opposed to the Chantry?
Plus, Sten (maybe the qunari in Kirkwall too, don't remember) clearly said that the mage's treatment in Ferelden was different, and that it wasn't good enough.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Qunari mages are just about as brainwashed as any person who happens to accept his place in life is. The Saarebas believe in the Qun and accept their role, that we find that role abhorrent does not mean the Saarebas are brainwashed. As a matter of fact, since there exist Tal-Vasoth Saarebas, it only serves to prove that Saarebas aren't brainwashed and are fully aware of their situation.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qunari mages are just about as brainwashed as any person who happens to accept his place in life is. The Saarebas believe in the Qun and accept their role, that we find that role abhorrent does not mean the Saarebas are brainwashed. As a matter of fact, since there exist Tal-Vasoth Saarebas, it only serves to prove that Saarebas aren't brainwashed and are fully aware of their situation.

Except 'any person who happens to accept his place in life', whatever the hell that means, is not always having his place dictated to him by a fascist authoritarian power.