155 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

But if you look at late medevial history it was the nationalisation of 'Inquistions' that lead to abuses, because the crown now had a way nd a pretext to bloodly enforce it's views upon it's enemies, mostly internal ones; Every wonder why it was called the SPAINISH Inquisition or the Dutch Inquisition? It's the names of the nations running it. Like it or not the Chantry did it's job for Thousands of years. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power" . I'd say that the Chantry has done very well with the power it has been given. More so then any king would have.

Perhaps nationalization wouldn't have worked, but that doesn't mean that the Chantry is tolerable. The Circle needs to be a separate but allied force under its own command, that can work with other nations as it sees fit.

[JamesStark]

All I'm going to add is that: Yes. I still find it interesting.

[Huge_Beaver]

If handled properly without making every templar an oppressive **** and without making the mages all blood magic using idiots then yes, i find the issue quite intresting.

[Asch Lavigne]

Still intresting? It was never interesting to me. I was far more into the Quanri plot in 2, and was hoping all the talk of a Qunari invasion was going to be the plot of 3.

[Nefla]

The treatment of mages and elves meant something to me in DA:O but in DA 2 both groups were incredibly shallow and the mages were annoying and illogical it would depend on how it was fleshed out in DA3.

[Aolbain]

Xilizhra wrote...

But if you look at late medevial history it was the nationalisation of 'Inquistions' that lead to abuses, because the crown now had a way nd a pretext to bloodly enforce it's views upon it's enemies, mostly internal ones; Every wonder why it was called the SPAINISH Inquisition or the Dutch Inquisition? It's the names of the nations running it. Like it or not the Chantry did it's job for Thousands of years. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power" . I'd say that the Chantry has done very well with the power it has been given. More so then any king would have.

Perhaps nationalization wouldn't have worked, but that doesn't mean that the Chantry is tolerable. The Circle needs to be a separate but allied force under its own command, that can work with other nations as it sees they fit.

Yes. Turn the mages into a politacal power. That will work out well.

[Swagger7]

I'm not tired of the conflict, but I do hope it ends with DA3. Then we can get back to fighting darkspawn or some new threat.

[BouncyFrag]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

Still intresting? It was never interesting to me. I was far more into the Quanri plot in 2, and was hoping all the talk of a Qunari invasion was going to be the plot of 3.

So much this! Unlike act 3 you can actually effect the outcome in regards to how you deal with the Arishok and Isabella.

[Warden661]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

Still intresting? It was never interesting to me. I was far more into the Quanri plot in 2, and was hoping all the talk of a Qunari invasion was going to be the plot of 3.

So much this! Unlike act 3 you can actually effect the outcome in regards to how you deal with the Arishok and Isabella.

I'm all for a Qunari plot.  

[Sister Goldring]

Yep, it is to me anyway. I'm interested in seeing how the issue will be resolved (particularly since reading Asunder). I think there are some cool stories to be told centring on a resolution between the templars, mages and chantry.

I've never been able to see the situation as black and white. To me the mages wanting the freedom to live their lives with a family, some privacy and a sense of self-determination is something that I can understand. I can also imagine that if I lived in the dragon age world as a non-magical person that I would be aware and very frightened of a subset of the community that had the power and temptations specific to mages. I would understand the need for supervision of these potentially extremely dangerous people particularly in the light of the history of the Tevinter Imperium.

I think this conflict is ripe for further exploration and I'd like to see how the writers attempt a resolution of what I think in the real world would be a fairly unresolvable problem. I imagine that in reality we'd see cycles of restraint, conflict, oppression and supremacy of one group over the other endlessly repeated. Just for kicks, in the Thedus as real world fantasy my money's on the mages 'Imperium style' dominance with non magical citizens in a state of cyclical revolt .

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[GodWood]

It's quite an interesting dilemma (Freedom Vs. Security and all that). The problem is Bioware is likely to explore it with the subtley of a mammoth to the face.

Plaintiff wrote...
Everyone has the right to defend their lives and their freedom with all the tools at their disposal. If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else.

Remember that crypto-social Darwinist mage supremacism you said you didn't advocate.

You're advocating it.

Modifié par GodWood, 21 novembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Vit246]

I don't think the current Bioware writers are capable of delicately handling well the "mage conundrum".

They should use Obsidian Entertainment writers for this.

Modifié par Vit246, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[Nerevar-as]

Ausstig wrote...

But if you look at late medevial history it was the nationalisation of 'Inquistions' that lead to abuses, because the crown now had a way nd a pretext to bloodly enforce it's views upon it's enemies, mostly internal ones; Every wonder why it was called the SPAINISH Inquisition or the Dutch Inquisition? It's the names of the nations running it. Like it or not the Chantry did it's job for Thousands of years. "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power" . I'd say that the Chantry has done very well with the power it has been given. More so then any king would have.  

Any Fereldan old enough would have something to say about that. Teaching the common folk that their mage children are cursed by God isn´t something very nice either. Neither is isolating said children, taking away said children´s own children, and so on.

They have power, and they are afraid. Not the best combination.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

It's quite an interesting dilemma (Freedom Vs. Security and all that). The problem is Bioware is likely to explore it with the subtley of a mammoth to the face.

Plaintiff wrote...
Everyone has the right to defend their lives and their freedom with all the tools at their disposal. If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else.

Remember that crypto-social Darwinist mage supremacism you said you didn't advocate.

You're advocating it.

I very clearly used the word defend.

Please actually read the words I am typing, or refrain from responding.

[Razzandi]

Well OP, just take a look at the thread, that answers your question. As long as you have crazies who are unwilling to compromise this 'conundrum' will continue.

[TEWR]

Bioware's portrayal of it? I'm barely interested anymore.

The actual ideas of a conflict of this type? I'll always admit the conflict has great ideas backing it. But I hold little faith in Bioware's writing being any good.

I'll await DA3 to be proven wrong on that outlook however.

[Sharn01]

It could be interesting.

It wont be interesting if both mages and templars keep being portrayed as insane, evil and who knows what else.

[Warden661]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...

It's quite an interesting dilemma (Freedom Vs. Security and all that). The problem is Bioware is likely to explore it with the subtley of a mammoth to the face.

Plaintiff wrote...
Everyone has the right to defend their lives and their freedom with all the tools at their disposal. If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else.

Remember that crypto-social Darwinist mage supremacism you said you didn't advocate.

You're advocating it.

I very clearly used the word defend.

Please actually read the words I am typing, or refrain from responding.

It was the "If the mages have the best tools, then that's just tough luck for everyone else" that advocates it. Nothing to do with the word defend.

[jkflipflopDAO]

I am so beyond sick of this story. I liked that the chantry was there in the background of the first game. It really helped make the world feel more grounded and realistic. It was more immersive with that noise in the background.

Churches are boring. No one likes people that preach to them. I would have thought they had their fill of this garbage from the putrid DA2, but I guess not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I think there's already a realistic alternative to depriving the mages of their freedom, and that's to stop damn well doing it.

:D:D:D:D
It seems your definition of "realistic" comes from fairy tales.

"If I wish it hard enough, it will come true."


 

There's no "solution", at least, not the kind you're looking for. Even if mages could find an effective way to ward off possession, magic would still be dangerous. People would still want to imprison mages for that fact. Not that humans have ever actually needed an excuse to be jerks.

Humans can be jerks, true.
But locking makes act is an act of prevention. A wise, calculated move. It is a great solution.

[Salaya]

Well, I must say that all the trouble with the mage-templar thig in DA2 bored me to tears. I think it was one of the laziest plot directions the writers could take. This, and a qunari war, are the worst developments DA universe could get.

Instead of trying to do something original in a given context (the context presented in DA:O) they take one of the definitory lore elements and simply destroy it. As many other things, it shows the little respect the new direction of DA has for what Origins had accomplished. It is something like "Hey, Origins had such a boring context, so much equilibrium and political issues... let's add more explosions, yay!". Sigh.

[Lotion Soronarr]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

I respectfully disagree and yet also, in a bizarre way, agree with the OP. The writers have handed us a thorny conundrum; unrestricted mages are a terrible danger. A long painful war was fought to remove them from power; power they once used to dominate the entire continent.

For a thousand (or whatever) years, a way was found to contain them - an answer that the vast majority of mages accepted - though with reservation. This "answer" was founded on a religious system and institution that was universally accepted.

But DAO introduced fractures in the system; the old answers no longer seem to be working. In DA2, a possessed Anders, destroyed the old equilibrium. Now the people of Thedas have to try and find a new answer, or the entire "world" will be engulfed in a vicious war "to the knife."

I do not see any easy answers from the way that the problem has been presented. Therefore from one sense, I would love to see what the writers think would resolve the dilemma - hence my disagreement with the OP.

However, on the other hand, maybe the writers do not want to resolve the problem. After all, a world torn apart from irreconcilable differences provides them a far more interesting setting to tell any number of great stories for the foreseeable future. Maybe they want to keep everyone, mages and "norms" at each others throats just to provide the kind of background to tell those stories?

So yeah, it is quite possible that everything we have seen thus far is simply tilling the soil to tell some really interesting stories. After all, I doubt that any of us actually expect the problems of the blight to be ever resolved, in the game world - the Dark Spawn are just a background menace that gives the PC a reason to struggle. The "Mage-Templar" war may just be serving the same, dramatic function.

Nice post.

But honestly, if DA ends with a happy "everoyne reconciles, mages are free and everything is fine" ending, I'm going to puke. I find goldylocks a more credible story than that.

[fchopin]

Yep, found them boring in DA2 so i hope they show more depth in DA3 or we will die from boredom, or even better create a new enemy that has more life.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drasanil wrote...

On the whole I find the mage 'dilemma' to be rather tedious, in part because circles are actually a rather sensible solution to the problem. It's not their existence or purpose that is actually harmful to mages, rather the contrary they're their to keep both mages and civilians safe. The real heart of the issue is that the circle system is one that lacks proper oversight and therefor lends itself to easy abuse by those that administer it.

The real issue is that the perfect oversight many want is unnatanable.

The oversight we have today - it cannot be recreated in Thedas. The mechanism and the requirements aren't in place.

The oversight the Circles have is actually quite good for the time period. It's not very good by our standards, but our standards aren't directly applicable to TheDas.

Any improvement to the Circle oversight will be minor.

[Herr Uhl]

fchopin wrote...

Yep, found them boring in DA2 so i hope they show more depth in DA3 or we will die from boredom, or even better create a new enemy that has more life.

Do you want aliens? I think Qunari, civil wars, other nations warring, demons, darkspawn and the mage templar thing should suffice at providing antagonists.