103 réponses à ce sujet

[JimTasty]

 that way Loghain would be the only teyrn!

[The Elder King]

Other than the fact that this reason is ridicolous (it's more plausible that he wanted to kill Bryce and Eamon because they were the only men with enough power and influence to oppose him in the Landsmeet), Gaider confirmed that Loghain wasn't involved in the Cousland's assassination plan.
Plus, not DA3 related.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 novembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[Ophir147]

Shun the non-believer!

[DragonRacer]

And after all these years, Loghain STILL gets under people's skins.

[Blazomancer]

What would have Loghain gained by being the only Teyrn?

[KnightofPhoenix]

No, he wouldn't be the only Teyrn, as Howe would also become Teyrn. So no.

[Monica21]

Howe did become Teryn, didn't he? I remember someone in the third act referring to the "Teryn of Highever." And yeah, what would Loghain gain by being the only Teryn?

[Jedimaster88]

DragonRacer wrote...

And after all these years, Loghain STILL gets under people's skins.

That he does. I´ve never seen so many people (myself included) to hate a game character that much. There are other characters/antagonists that I can imagine people could easily hate like for example Darth Malak from kotor or the colorful enemies in Metal gear solid series. Some of these characters I do hate but not the same way as Loghain. I actually think many of them are friggin cool and awesome. Sometimes Im not even fully sure, why I hate him the way I do. There is just...something about him.

And of course there are the people who defend Loghain. When these people and the ones who hate him confront eachother in different places, the result is a VERY heated and emotional debate.

That a fictional character can raise this much strong emotions...Its amazing.

[Persephone]

No.

Seriously, use your imagination next time.

[sylvanaerie]

What surprises me is 3 years later someone posts something like this when Gaider himself has said Loghain was in the dark about Howe's actions in Highever at the time it was committed. Still doesn't change the fact that my Cousland offed the bastard with extreme prejudice because he supported Howe's actions even if he wasn't privy to them at the time, he certainly was aware of what happened once the Cousland got to Ostagar. AND he had the freaking audacity to call my warden a 'murderer' at the Landsmeet. Like Howe was some innocent victim...

People who live in glass houses...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jedimaster88 wrote...


That a fictional character can raise this much strong emotions...Its amazing.

If only any of the characters from DA2 were half this conflict-inducing...

[Monica21]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...


That a fictional character can raise this much strong emotions...Its amazing.

If only any of the characters from DA2 were half this conflict-inducing...

If only the developers who wrote Loghain stood behind him and could pretend to be proud of creating a multifaceted character with complex motivations, and say, "Hey, we did that and it's awesome that you guys are still talking about him three years later!" But no, he's been reduced to mustache-twirling villian status and no matter what your character is selfish and betrays Alistair for... reasons.

Seriously, devs. You created one of the best video game characters ever. Yes, the player has to think about his actions. They have to think about his motivations. They have to think about what he knew. Why would you walk that back?

Modifié par Monica21, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:35 .

[Monica21]

Also, for someone so terrible at politics, Loghain is sure getting a lot of credit these days. First the post blaming him for Endrin's poisoning and now this.

[TEWR]

Death_Acolyte wrote...

It's funny cause you're wrong

End thread.

If only the developers who wrote Loghain stood behind him and could pretend to be proud of creating a multifaceted character with complex motivations, and say, "Hey, we did that and it's awesome that you guys are still talking about him three years later!" But no, he's been reduced to mustache-twirling villian status and no matter what your character is selfish and betrays Alistair for... reasons.

Seriously, devs. You created one of the best video game characters ever. Yes, the player has to think about his actions. They have to think about his motivations. They have to think about what he knew. Why would you walk that back?

Oy... when I first saw some of his responses in that thread I thought he had simply forgotten about Riordan and ended up retracting his statement's about "LOL your Warden's a selfish ******".

Then when Riordan was brought up, he said "Yes yes, you feel you didn't betray him. Good for you."

And then when Riordan was brought up again, he said "ignore that part". I'm not sure what he's arguing about Loghain anymore. Years ago it was "Loghain's not as evil as you think he is". Now it's "You're being selfish."

My hope for DA3's characters being interesting is... minimal. At best.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 novembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And then when Riordan was brought up again, he said "ignore that part". I'm not sure what he's arguing about Loghain anymore. Years ago it was "Loghain's not as evil as you think he is". Now it's "You're being selfish."

Dude. I just, I can't even. I'm still upset about it and I don't even know why. It's just a video game, but Loghain is a fantastic example of a complex antagonist, and the people who made him that way are pretending that he isn't a complex antagonist. That Alistair's a white knight and Loghain is the evil villian.

I can kind of write off the opening sequence in DA2 as being from Varric's perspective so that's the tale, but the codex entry is not Varric's. The codex entry seems like a cheap shot at Loghain fans or was written by someone who only played Origins once and didn't read the books. I don't get it. I really don't get it.

[sylvanaerie]

It's easy for me to hate Loghain. His personality grates on me. But more, to me he WAS the villian in DAO. The only other option who has as much impact on the story was Howe- so 'mustache twirlery' evil he has no redeeming (human) qualities whatsoever. Tim Curry plays the character and delivers his lines with such malevolent zeal, as soon as I heard him speak I said out loud "Oh, this guy is gonna be vile".

And the archdemon? No emotional impact with me whatsoever. It was like a force of nature. I don't hate the weather or an earthquake for being devastating, it just is.

I've never read the books, so I never developed a 'liking' for Loghain, but even as much as I hate the character I think he has to be one of the most complex characters to have come out of a video game-- of all things!--ever. While I can gleefully hate him and cast him in the villian role, since DAO lacks any other strong 'villian', I recognize the quality of the writing (good job Bioware) that went into making him a fully fleshed 'human' with motivations and drives that the player can relate to.

[alschemid]

No, he didn't.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
 "LOL your Warden's a selfish ******".
Then when Riordan was brought up, he said "Yes yes, you feel you didn't betray him. Good for you."

Really? <_< 

Modifié par alschemid, 20 novembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

Dude. I just, I can't even. I'm still upset about it and I don't even know why. It's just a video game, but Loghain is a fantastic example of a complex antagonist, and the people who made him that way are pretending that he isn't a complex antagonist. That Alistair's a white knight and Loghain is the evil villian.

I can kind of write off the opening sequence in DA2 as being from Varric's perspective so that's the tale, but the codex entry is not Varric's. The codex entry seems like a cheap shot at Loghain fans or was written by someone who only played Origins once and didn't read the books. I don't get it. I really don't get it.

Varric and the codex to me -- along with Aveline's perception of him which no doubt is why Varric calls him such -- are excusable, though it'd be nice if the codex actually accounted for the different endings Loghain can have: death at the Landsmeet resulting in the codex we know, redemption equals death where it would say he made amends, or surviving the Blight and working to atone as best he can with what time he has.

Be nice if the latter two could be seen in the codex. Or at the very least have the codex say "While this author views him as a traitor, others still see him as the same hero he ever was -- even if he walked a rocky path during the Fifth Blight" or something. That way we have an in-game account acknowledging both perceptions of him as not a cackling villain who did these things for no reason other then to be a douchebag.

What I can't excuse is The Silent Grove's narratorial description of him as being a traitor, as that's coming from no in-game source at all. It's simply a description from the outside universe to fill in readers.

What's worse is that David Gaider seems to have actually admitted recently that his intention when writing Loghain wasn't for a multi-faceted villain, but rather a shallow, meaningless, and definitively evil villain and that all the fans are just "adding their own interpretations".

If the Warden is being selfish, then Riordan must be as well. They can't possibly want to recruit Loghain because, at the time, they think that having four Wardens against the Blight is better then three. They can't possibly think that Ferelden's livelihood and continued existence is more important then vengeance.

They can't possibly think that this is what Duncan might have been in favor for. They can't possibly think that maybe Loghain can atone for what he's done by being a Warden, or that 30 years of having that weight of his actions on his mind will be a more fitting punishment for him then death.

Or his obvious military significance not just to strategy, but to morale.

Nope. All Wardens are being selfish. They're placing their own well-being over that of other peoples'. They're not thinking about other people with their choice of sparing him. 

Hell, let's ignore the entire history of the Wardens where they recruit murderers, thieves, and all other kinds of people. Or that they do whatever it takes to defeat the Blight -- something Alistair notes in Ostagar.

I can understand Alistair being upset. That's fine. I would expect him to get pissed off, as he was written to not like Loghain at all and thought Loghain did, in fact, betray the Wardens -- wrong as that is, it's understandable.

But for David Gaider to toss out all measure of reasons why Loghain should be recruited in the name of "selfishness" is absurd.

I could get behind calling it "Enlightened self-interest", maybe. As that's something that not only benefits yourself, but other people -- which recruiting him would be. That you would be doing for nobler reasons possibly ultimately ends up helping you out in the long run, whether you know it or not.

But selfishness, pure and simple? Uh-uh.

alschemid wrote...

Really? <_<

More or less. In different words, certainly. But the aura of his message was the same, that no matter what you're selfish and you're betraying Alistair. And when he admits he forgot about Riordan, he said "Well, ignore that part. My point remains."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 décembre 2012 - 03:26 .

[sylvanaerie]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dude. I just, I can't even. I'm still upset about it and I don't even know why. It's just a video game, but Loghain is a fantastic example of a complex antagonist, and the people who made him that way are pretending that he isn't a complex antagonist. That Alistair's a white knight and Loghain is the evil villian.

I can kind of write off the opening sequence in DA2 as being from Varric's perspective so that's the tale, but the codex entry is not Varric's. The codex entry seems like a cheap shot at Loghain fans or was written by someone who only played Origins once and didn't read the books. I don't get it. I really don't get it.

Varric and the codex to me -- along with Aveline's perception of him which no doubt is why Varric calls him such -- are excusable, though it'd be nice if the codex actually accounted for the different endings Loghain can have: death at the Landsmeet resulting in the codex we know, redemption equals death where it would say he made amends, or surviving the Blight and working to atone as best he can with what time he has.

Be nice if the latter two could be seen in the codex. Or at the very least have the codex say "While this author views him as a traitor, others still see him as the same hero he ever was -- even if he walked a rocky path during the Fifth Blight" or something. That way we have an in-game account acknowledging both perceptions of him as not a cackling villain who did these things for no reason other then to be a douchebag.

What I can't excuse is The Silent Grove's narratorial description of him as being a traitor, as that's coming from no in-game source at all. It's simply a description from the outside universe to fill in readers.

alschemid wrote...

Really? <_<

More or less. In different words, certainly. But the aura of his message was the same, that no matter what you're selfish and you're betraying Alistair. And when he admits he forgot about Loghain, he said "Well, ignore that part. My point remains."

I do see him as a traitor, and only one of my imports had him recruited and doing the ultimate sacrifice on the Archdemon (mostly for the Drunkistair/Teagan cameo), but I agree, for those who did import a save with him alive (or doing the Redeemer), it would have been nice to get a modified codex entry as you suggest.  Codex and NPC opinions are kind of subjective things, that I can excuse, but outside narrative declaring him as such...not so much.  

I wouldn't put too much into it though, didn't Gaider say 'The Silent Grove' wasn't canon anyway?