103 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Well, I'd be suspicious too. In DAO, Celene was described as an expansionist like Drakon so her sending Chevaliers would be grounds for some warning bells.

The Wardens may not be serving Orlais at this point in time, but that doesn't mean Orlais wouldn't still be trying its same old bag of tricks. The Wardens would probably just see the Chevaliers as back-up against the Blight -- or would only care about that. Orlais, however, would still use the Blights as a pretense to "aid" a nation and never leave.

That said, in DAII and Asunder Celene seems to have been changed to not be an expansionist. Or at least, not as douchey an expansionist as Drakon was. She's working with Alistair to promote peace between the two nations and is trying to quell reconquering sentiments from some of her nobility.

[Klidi]

Where in DAO is Celene described as expansionist?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Monica21 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


That doesn't seem to indicate that they came intending to attack the Ferelden regime. Merely that they realized they now had to if they wanted to get someone capable of killing the archdemon to the front lines.

I'm not sure how that means anything but attacking and/or claiming the Ferelden throne. If it was just the Blight, wouldn't Riordan have stopped at that? If they attack Loghain's regency, they're still attacking, and potentially taking down, the throne, reinserting themselves as occupiers.

Yeah, but from the sound of it, it wasn't part of the original plan. Riordan seems to imply the Wardens were only doing it because they needed to in order to be able to handle the darkspawn without getting jumped from behind.

[Monica21]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Yeah, but from the sound of it, it wasn't part of the original plan. Riordan seems to imply the Wardens were only doing it because they needed to in order to be able to handle the darkspawn without getting jumped from behind.

Well...... I'm not sure. Riordan says that in addition to the Wardens, they had two dozen divisions of Orlesian cavalry, presumably sent by Celene with Cailan's approval, per their discovered correspondence in RtO. Was it the original plan to fight the regime? Probably not. But I very much doubt that the cavalry was going to leave Ferelden, especially after Cailan sets Anora aside and marries Celene, bring Ferelden under the Orlesian empire. Celene's original plan was probably more along the lines of helping defeat the darkspawn and then marrying Cailan. Which would, essentially, destroy the Ferelden throne anyway.

[Monica21]

I've been meaning to reply to this for some time because you raise some very good points but I was thinking on how to address them.

sylvanaerie wrote...
My Warden isn't privy to Loghain's motivations or the statements Gaider and the other devs have posted here on the boards when he/she is confronting him at the Landsmeet.  From my Wardens' perspective, Loghain poisoned Eamon, a premeditated act, not a crime of passion or a manslaughter situation, a premeditated act of attempted murder.  Not once does he state in the Landsmeet (or prior) "I never meant to kill you, just keep you out of the game till I could _______".  He certainly had the opportunity during the private chat at Eamon's estate to clarify things without an audience, but instead all he offers up is threats.  "The Emperor of Orlais didn't think I'd take him down either".  And at the Landsmeet, it was only "I didn't do that", denying culpability, despite evidence to the contrary, when he most definitely did.   Where I'm concerned, lying at that point was just stupid.  Had he said, "It was a calculated move, a mistake, since I never meant to kill him." it would have cut a different slant to the arguments in there for me, but he didn't, so I have to go on what information the game gives me, not metagaming that my warden can read minds and know what his motivations are.

I'm going to split hairs again, but the only real evidence that Loghain was involved comes at the Landsmeet and even that is word of mouth. Berwick says that he was hired by an agent of Howe's to watch the castle and produces a letter. Jowan, who is a confirmed and confessed blood mage, tells you that he was hired by Loghain . Bann Alfstanna, who is the only legitimate source at this point, at the Landsmeet confirms that she heard the story from her brother. Of course, I say this when I, and my character, believe that Loghain was the one who sent Jowan to poison him. By that point though, Jowan is long gone and the Templar has gone insane due to the effects of lyrium withdrawal. If this were an actual trial, there is no proof that Loghain was involved, especially considering that the Templar in question was in Howe's dungeon. It's all word of mouth. Is it true? Yes, but it can't be proven. (Again, splitting hairs.)

Nor is my Warden a 'fly on the wall' watching Loghain and his lukewarm acceptance of Crow assassins to take out his enemies.  But he sure as hell wasn't saying "No" to them either, and all my Warden has to go on once Zevran and bounty hunters come after her is "Loghain hired people to kill me".  No one ever says "No, this was all Howe's doing, Loghain didn't send us."  The only ones who confirm they are on Howe's payroll are those yahoos in the Pearl with the ambush tactics.  Howe didn't go behind his back to hire the Crows, he introduces Zevran, so Loghain was fully aware of what was happening, even if he wasn't very enthusiastic about the whole thing.  Culpability comes into play here.  If you sign off your approval on something, your consent is given, you have agreed to a course of action and you should be called into account if your target survives and comes after you for justice. There are reasons why the person who solicits someone to kill another is just as much at fault to the crime as the person doing the actual killing. Politics be damned, as if that excuse is going to make it any less of a crime.  And Zevran never says "I was hired by Howe" it was "I was hired by a man named Loghain" even though Howe introduces him as his "warden solution".  Howe's death happens when he fights the Warden, a spur of the moment thing (for any of my Warden's but my Cousland, who frankly is a murderer at that moment, since she/he enters that estate, with malice aforethought, not a nice attitude but forgiveable considering the nature of Howe's crimes).   Loghain's actions are premeditated and this is what makes what he does different from the Warden's killing of Howe.  Also at this point, the warden is innocent of crimes, he's just 'in the way' and Loghain wants him gone.   Manslaughter/self defense vs premeditated murder. His reluctance is irrelevant since the warden never sees this reluctance, nor does Zevran bring it up in any conversations prior to the Landsmeet.

I agree with this, but I don't share your perspective, and probably because of how I play my Warden. My canon warden is a female human noble, so she can't not be aware of Loghain's presence in history and even her father's post-rebellion relationship with him. In my Warden's mind, Loghain has done nothing that isn't in the best interest of Ferelden. Zevran's statement that he was hired by Loghain would surprise my Warden, but she's still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Loghain still simply doesn't understand the necessity of the Wardens. Heck, my Warden didn't fully understand the necessity until after the conversation with Riordan, despite the dream she'd had. There are very few people who do understand it. So, Loghain doesn't have the knowledge he needs to make an informed decision. Loghain is not the sort of man who doesn't want to get his hands dirty, and my Warden would know this. The assassination attempt is simply too far out of character.

I will concede that not once does Loghain claim he wants the throne, nor do I believe he does it just for power's sake, and is actually doing it from a desire to 'protect' his daughter and Ferelden from (Orlais? Ambitious nobles?).  But WTF is he supposed to be protecting her from that he couldn't do more capably as the general of her armies vs her regent?  An outsider (IE my warden) looking in only sees the man who refuses to let his daughter (someone trained from birth to rule) do what she does best, leading the country.  The idiot also created a crisis situation with the rulership in question, causing the civil war.  Some of the banns objected to Loghain's actions, but I also truly believe some of them saw it as an opportunity in a 'power vaccuum' putting the succession in doubt.  Kind of self fulfilling prophecy situation going on here. His lies all come into play here as well.  Just what is my warden supposed to think when he says one thing, but his actions are completely contrary to his words?  That he's a man who sees his daughter as 'a 6 year old in pigtails and scraped knees' cuts him a wee bit of slack here, but not much since he is making the situation worse than it has to be.

Well, Loghain is still commanding his armies, but from Denerim. The rumors from Bodahn and the Loghain's Push quest indicate that he's involved in skirmishes and putting down various rebellions, but his entire army isn't needed for that. And I'd say that there isn't a single Loghain supporter who claims that he is a good politician. He assumes that the banns will fall in line once he takes the regency, but they don't. Politically, it was disastrous, you're right. I could also ask though, why does the blame fall on Loghain? The way I usually read the situation, Loghain orders the banns to support "what was lost at Ostagar" and the banns say no, we're going to fight your troops instead. Loghain is the one trying to stop the darkspawn, he's the one trying to pull troops together, and the banns are fighting among themselves and with Loghain. I understand the concern about Loghain potentially taking the crown once the Blight is over, but I don't think the time to address that is during the Blight itself.

Had he left ruling the country to Anora and wanted to be the general leading her armies, I might have let him live, even with the debacle at Ostagar, Alistair's revenge be damned.  That said, another part of being a good leader is knowing when to delegate tasks to those best capable of handling them, not trying to do it all yourself. He had no business trying to lead the country, or killing the only people capable of dealing with the crisis, and I'm not speaking of the Archdemon thing, I'm speaking of 1000 years of history/lore that tells everyone in Thedas that only wardens can deal with the Blight. At least with the latter he actually delegates others to do his dirty work. His rampant paranoia/ego overruns any good sense he had once he realizes what they are dealing with isn't a large excusion to the surface but an actual Blight.

Agreed, and he's still bad at politics, but I'm not going to kill him for that.

Everyone makes mistakes, I can forgive mistakes, and I believe he even says (if you choose the "you left Cailan to die" dialogue option) that he couldn't have prevented Cailan's death, so I can believe it was a no win scenario (or he felt at that point it was unwinnable) and he was just trying to keep as many men as he could alive. But since everything else he's saying at the Landsmeet is lies, I have to sift through all the bullsh*t to find the nuggets of truth beneath the stench.  Frankly I don't have the patience for that crap.

How is everything he says at the Landsmeet lies? He even confesses to selling elves into slavery. And what does Eamon say? "Teryn Loghain would have us give up our freedoms, our traditions, out of fear!" Where is that in-game? Where is there any indication that Loghain wants Ferelden to be anything other than it was before Cailan's death? You can bring up the Arl's son who was tortured in Howe's chamber in Denerim. Loghain says that Howe was responsible for himself, which is true. Why would Loghain have known Howe was torturing the son of nobles? The only thing Loghain does lie about is poisoning Eamon.

And I can't forgive ignoring your mistakes and continuing to screw up when everyone around you tells you you're screwing up.  Even Howe tells him they are losing too many men to deal with the blight because of the civil war, and Loghain still insists he can do it all, kind of negating the entire purpose of Howe being his advisor if he doesn't listen anyway on the rare time Howe actually makes an advice that isn't wholly self serving.  Of course, the warden isn't privy to this conversation either, but can see the results in the civil war raging on one front while the blight devastates the land (West Hills and in several side quests, the countryside) on another.

To be fair, Loghain is better at understanding battle than Howe. I probably wouldn't listen to Howe either. As for Howe being an advisor, I never got the impression that that was his purpose. I got the impression that, since Howe's forces never went to Ostagar and since Howe is now the Teryn of Highever, he needs his political weight and troops, and does not care for his advice. Also to be fair, Loghain is still more concerned about Orlais than about the darkspawn. I'm not sure at what point he believes it's a Blight and I don't think the game makes it clear, but by the Landsmeet he does believe it. I'm not sure if he ever stops believing that Orlais is less important that the Blight, not until you recruit him.

Modifié par Monica21, 25 novembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Monica21 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Yeah, but from the sound of it, it wasn't part of the original plan. Riordan seems to imply the Wardens were only doing it because they needed to in order to be able to handle the darkspawn without getting jumped from behind.

Well...... I'm not sure. Riordan says that in addition to the Wardens, they had two dozen divisions of Orlesian cavalry, presumably sent by Celene with Cailan's approval, per their discovered correspondence in RtO. Was it the original plan to fight the regime? Probably not. But I very much doubt that the cavalry was going to leave Ferelden, especially after Cailan sets Anora aside and marries Celene, bring Ferelden under the Orlesian empire. Celene's original plan was probably more along the lines of helping defeat the darkspawn and then marrying Cailan. Which would, essentially, destroy the Ferelden throne anyway.

The quote sounds like Riordan is trying to say that the Wardens directly control those soldiers. I doubt that's correct, but I think it's the impression he's trying to give. (He refers to them as the Wardens' support troops, which kind of made me think they were like the party the Warden and Alistair gathered.)

More likely, Celene is lending them soldiers, with the idea being that those soldiers would enforce the new regime in Ferelden and the Wardens wouldn't fight it. Of course, Celene has shown herself unwilling to take Ferelden by force, and is even dealing with a rebellion because of it. Am I the only once who was honestly taken aback to learn that?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[Monica21]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The quote sounds like Riordan is trying to say that the Wardens directly control those soldiers. I doubt that's correct, but I think it's the impression he's trying to give. (He refers to them as the Wardens' support troops, which kind of made me think they were like the party the Warden and Alistair gathered.)

More likely, Celene is lending them soldiers, with the idea being that those soldiers would enforce the new regime in Ferelden and the Wardens wouldn't fight it.

Had Ostagar not happened the way it did, then they probably would have served as support troops for the Wardens. Considering the plan between Celene and Cailan though, there was no chace they would have gone back to Orlais.

Of course, Celene has shown herself unwilling to take Ferelden by force, and is even dealing with a rebellion because of it. Am I the only once who was honestly taken aback to learn that?

To learn of the rebellion or to be unwilling to take back Ferelden by force? To be honest, I don't remember hearing about the rebellion.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 novembre 2012 - 11:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Monica21 wrote...

To learn of the rebellion or to be unwilling to take back Ferelden by force? To be honest, I don't remember hearing about the rebellion.

It was in Dragon Age: Asunder, apparently. I say apparently because I read this on the wiki, rather than right from the source. Celene didn't want to take Ferelden by force, a bellicose Duke objected, Celene is in hiding right now.

A country like this turning on its ruler is no surprise. Why would it be? But Celene not trying to take Ferelden back by force, with all we've heard of Orlais? I found that surprising.

[Monica21]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
It was in Dragon Age: Asunder, apparently. I say apparently because I read this on the wiki, rather than right from the source. Celene didn't want to take Ferelden by force, a bellicose Duke objected, Celene is in hiding right now.

A country like this turning on its ruler is no surprise. Why would it be? But Celene not trying to take Ferelden back by force, with all we've heard of Orlais? I found that surprising.

Oh, is that what the issue with the Duke was? I skimmed a lot of the book, and I don't own it so I can't reread.

I'm not surprised she didn't try to take it by force. They lost a lot of resources just hanging onto it for 80 years, and then were just embarrassed by the ragtag Ferelden army at the River Dane. That's all well and good for a Duke to get his panties in twist, but Celene's plan to take Ferelden by marriage didn't work, so she had to regroup or give it up.

[TEWR]

Klidi wrote...

Where in DAO is Celene described as expansionist?

Somewhere. 

Honestly, I can't recall where in DAO it was said. But I know, without a doubt, that somewhere it was said that Celene -- upon taking the throne -- showed herself to be a supporter of expansionism just like her ancestor Kordillius Drakon I.

Monica21 wrote...

Well, Loghain is still commanding his armies, but from Denerim.

Sort of. He's out in the field a lot as well, which allowed Howe to move forward with things that Loghain wouldn't have approved of otherwise -- the purge of the Alienage, for one.

Monica21 wrote...

 I could also ask though, why does the blame fall on Loghain? The way I usually read the situation, Loghain orders the banns to support "what was lost at Ostagar" and the banns say no, we're going to fight your troops instead. Loghain is the one trying to stop the darkspawn, he's the one trying to pull troops together, and the banns are fighting among themselves and with Loghain. I understand the concern about Loghain potentially taking the crown once the Blight is over, but I don't think the time to address that is during the Blight itself.

Well, he started off strong, asking them to support and rebuild what was lost at Ostagar. What happened after that, however, is when the waters start to get muddied.

Teagan asked for details about the retreat from Ostagar, which could've been easily answered by a "The battle was unwinnable, and there was nothing I could do to save Cailan". Whether that would've placated the nobility enough to line up under his banner, I dunno. Maybe so, maybe not.

What he says instead is a politically disastrous line of "Everything I've done has been for the good of the nation, and I will brook no threat from anyone -- be they Fereldan or foreigner!". 

That carries with it a hostile persona that lends itself well to the doubts on Ostagar's nature. The Bannorn are now divided between thinking Loghain retreated due to it being unwinnable or having left his King to die for no real reason.

It's not clear who struck the first blow in the civil war, but certainly both Loghain and the Bannorn are both at fault. The latter, IMO, more then the former -- and I also believe they struck the first blow, as Howe states that the Bannorn were gearing up for war.

These issues are, as you said, best addressed once the nation is safe from the Blight.

Loghain's certainly a horrible politician -- hence his reliance on Howe -- but only a fool chooses to go through with a civil war in a time of Blight. And the Bannorn not supporting Loghain are the fools in this picture.

Monica21 wrote...

Why would Loghain have known Howe was torturing the son of nobles? The only thing Loghain does lie about is poisoning Eamon.

At one point, Gaider said that Howe had done a lot of things without Loghain's approval when the latter was out in the field. I don't think Loghain knew about Sighard's son being held captive and tortured. Certainly, he didn't know about the purge on the Alienage Howe had done.

Hell, when you think about it, Howe took Alfstanna's brother and Sighard's son so he could gain more land through some nasty methods. He's a man who is never satisfied with how much power he has. He cares little for how he gets it.

If Eamon had been close to his deathbed and Berwick had sent word to one of Howe's men, Howe probably would've kept that information from Loghain so he could plan out a way to take Redcliffe for himself.

Howe probably would've betrayed Ferelden to the Orlesians if it meant more power and authority for him.

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 I could also ask though, why does the blame fall on Loghain? The way I usually read the situation, Loghain orders the banns to support "what was lost at Ostagar" and the banns say no, we're going to fight your troops instead. Loghain is the one trying to stop the darkspawn, he's the one trying to pull troops together, and the banns are fighting among themselves and with Loghain. I understand the concern about Loghain potentially taking the crown once the Blight is over, but I don't think the time to address that is during the Blight itself.

Well, he started off strong, asking them to support and rebuild what was lost at Ostagar. What happened after that, however, is when the waters start to get muddied.

Teagan asked for details about the retreat from Ostagar, which could've been easily answered by a "The battle was unwinnable, and there was nothing I could do to save Cailan". Whether that would've placated the nobility enough to line up under his banner, I dunno. Maybe so, maybe not.

What he says instead is a politically disastrous line of "Everything I've done has been for the good of the nation, and I will brook no threat from anyone -- be they Fereldan or foreigner!". 

That carries with it a hostile persona that lends itself well to the doubts on Ostagar's nature. The Bannorn are now divided between thinking Loghain retreated due to it being unwinnable or having left his King to die for no real reason.

It's not clear who struck the first blow in the civil war, but certainly both Loghain and the Bannorn are both at fault. The latter, IMO, more then the former -- and I also believe they struck the first blow, as Howe states that the Bannorn were gearing up for war.

These issues are, as you said, best addressed once the nation is safe from the Blight.

Loghain's certainly a horrible politician -- hence his reliance on Howe -- but only a fool chooses to go through with a civil war in a time of Blight. And the Bannorn not supporting Loghain are the fools in this picture.

I agree with most of this, but Teagan's question wasn't just "so what happened at Ostagar?" It was, "your retreat was most... fortuitous." The implication, of course, being that Loghain was a son of a **** who left the king to die. I don't know if that was for the player or what, but clearly the banns didn't like being bossed around by someone they still thought of as a commoner and they questioned his battlefield decisions. Ironically, that's the one thing at the Landsmeet you don't get points for. It's fine for the banns to do so, but your upstart Warden who was actually at Ostagar can't do it.

Anyway, I'm rambling now and I'm not sure what my point was, except that Teagan started it. Yes, very juvenile of me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Monica21 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 I could also ask though, why does the blame fall on Loghain? The way I usually read the situation, Loghain orders the banns to support "what was lost at Ostagar" and the banns say no, we're going to fight your troops instead. Loghain is the one trying to stop the darkspawn, he's the one trying to pull troops together, and the banns are fighting among themselves and with Loghain. I understand the concern about Loghain potentially taking the crown once the Blight is over, but I don't think the time to address that is during the Blight itself.

Well, he started off strong, asking them to support and rebuild what was lost at Ostagar. What happened after that, however, is when the waters start to get muddied.

Teagan asked for details about the retreat from Ostagar, which could've been easily answered by a "The battle was unwinnable, and there was nothing I could do to save Cailan". Whether that would've placated the nobility enough to line up under his banner, I dunno. Maybe so, maybe not.

What he says instead is a politically disastrous line of "Everything I've done has been for the good of the nation, and I will brook no threat from anyone -- be they Fereldan or foreigner!". 

That carries with it a hostile persona that lends itself well to the doubts on Ostagar's nature. The Bannorn are now divided between thinking Loghain retreated due to it being unwinnable or having left his King to die for no real reason.

It's not clear who struck the first blow in the civil war, but certainly both Loghain and the Bannorn are both at fault. The latter, IMO, more then the former -- and I also believe they struck the first blow, as Howe states that the Bannorn were gearing up for war.

These issues are, as you said, best addressed once the nation is safe from the Blight.

Loghain's certainly a horrible politician -- hence his reliance on Howe -- but only a fool chooses to go through with a civil war in a time of Blight. And the Bannorn not supporting Loghain are the fools in this picture.

I agree with most of this, but Teagan's question wasn't just "so what happened at Ostagar?" It was, "your retreat was most... fortuitous." The implication, of course, being that Loghain was a son of a **** who left the king to die. I don't know if that was for the player or what, but clearly the banns didn't like being bossed around by someone they still thought of as a commoner and they questioned his battlefield decisions. Ironically, that's the one thing at the Landsmeet you don't get points for. It's fine for the banns to do so, but your upstart Warden who was actually at Ostagar can't do it.

Anyway, I'm rambling now and I'm not sure what my point was, except that Teagan started it. Yes, very juvenile of me.

I think everyone who would have approved got hanged by Loghain in the interim.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 novembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[TEWR]

I think everyone who would have approved got hanged by Loghain in the interim.

Not everyone. If you bring it up, Arl Bryland -- the half-Orlesian one -- says that he and other nobles are still curious about just what happened at Ostagar. Plus you've got Eamon.

Then Ceorlic chimes in with his "Why would we listen to an Elf/Dwarf?". No idea what he says if you're playing as a Human.

Frankly, my DN never brings up Ostagar. Being a military genius, he knows that Loghain did the sound military move. Politically, he could've done things better -- both during and after the battle.

This isn't to say my DN wasn't livid with how the Fereldans were handling the Darkspawn. Ignorant on the fortress' structure, having only 7 mages, Cailan ruining the battle plan? All of these things made my DN facepalm.

Anyway, I'm rambling now and I'm not sure what my point was, except that Teagan started it. Yes, very juvenile of me.

Not so juvenile. It's understandable and you're not alone in that sentiment I'd wager. Personally, I'll say he exacerbated the tension but the actual starting of it falls to other people.

[Klidi]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Somewhere. 

Honestly, I can't recall where in DAO it was said. But I know, without a doubt, that somewhere it was said that Celene -- upon taking the throne -- showed herself to be a supporter of expansionism just like her ancestor Kordillius Drakon I.[/quote]

Actually, she's hardly mentioned in DAO. In RtO there are two letters she exchanged with Cailan - one, in which she says that the Blight is a threat for both of them and she's willing to help her knights to help Cailan. Second, less formal, in which she says that the visit to Denerim is postponed due to the Blight and that they will talk about the permanent alliance between their countries once it's over. The Codex about her says that she is a capable politician and that under her rule, Orlais is peaceful and prosperous.

None of this proves she was expansionist.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

Well, Loghain is still commanding his armies, but from Denerim.[/quote]

Sort of. He's out in the field a lot as well, which allowed Howe to move forward with things that Loghain wouldn't have approved of otherwise -- the purge of the Alienage, for one.

[/quote]

We don't really know that. When he's shown, he's in Denerim. And given that it was Loghain who approved the business with the Tevinter slavers, I don't see why he wouldn't approve the purge.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

 I could also ask though, why does the blame fall on Loghain? The way I usually read the situation, Loghain orders the banns to support "what was lost at Ostagar" and the banns say no, we're going to fight your troops instead. Loghain is the one trying to stop the darkspawn, he's the one trying to pull troops together, and the banns are fighting among themselves and with Loghain. I understand the concern about Loghain potentially taking the crown once the Blight is over, but I don't think the time to address that is during the Blight itself.[/quote]

Well, he started off strong, asking them to support and rebuild what was lost at Ostagar. What happened after that, however, is when the waters start to get muddied.

Teagan asked for details about the retreat from Ostagar, which could've been easily answered by a "The battle was unwinnable, and there was nothing I could do to save Cailan". Whether that would've placated the nobility enough to line up under his banner, I dunno. Maybe so, maybe not.

What he says instead is a politically disastrous line of "Everything I've done has been for the good of the nation, and I will brook no threat from anyone -- be they Fereldan or foreigner!". 

That carries with it a hostile persona that lends itself well to the doubts on Ostagar's nature. The Bannorn are now divided between thinking Loghain retreated due to it being unwinnable or having left his King to die for no real reason.

It's not clear who struck the first blow in the civil war, but certainly both Loghain and the Bannorn are both at fault. The latter, IMO, more then the former -- and I also believe they struck the first blow, as Howe states that the Bannorn were gearing up for war.

These issues are, as you said, best addressed once the nation is safe from the Blight.

Loghain's certainly a horrible politician -- hence his reliance on Howe -- but only a fool chooses to go through with a civil war in a time of Blight. And the Bannorn not supporting Loghain are the fools in this picture.[/quote]

Loghain didn't believe it was a Blight. Why should Banns believe it? They were not at Ostagar, they didn't see the horde. And Loghain didn't do much to convince them. From their point of view, he tries to usurp the throne.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

Why would Loghain have known Howe was torturing the son of nobles? The only thing Loghain does lie about is poisoning Eamon.
[/quote]

At one point, Gaider said that Howe had done a lot of things without Loghain's approval when the latter was out in the field. I don't think Loghain knew about Sighard's son being held captive and tortured. Certainly, he didn't know about the purge on the Alienage Howe had done.

Hell, when you think about it, Howe took Alfstanna's brother and Sighard's son so he could gain more land through some nasty methods. He's a man who is never satisfied with how much power he has. He cares little for how he gets it.

If Eamon had been close to his deathbed and Berwick had sent word to one of Howe's men, Howe probably would've kept that information from Loghain so he could plan out a way to take Redcliffe for himself.

Howe probably would've betrayed Ferelden to the Orlesians if it meant more power and authority for him.

[/quote]

None of this can be deducted from the game or books, and I don't accept Gaider's headcanon as a valid resource. But, even if Loghain didn't know what was Howe doing, it doesn't mean he was not responsible for it. It was still him who enpowered Howe and gave him the authority to do it. He at least knew about Couslands - so he definitely knew what Howe was capable of.

So it all comes down to how big a fool you think Loghain was. I personally prefer evil, ambitious Loghain over an imbecile who doesn't know what's going on right under his nose.

[Klidi]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Somewhere. 

Honestly, I can't recall where in DAO it was said. But I know, without a doubt, that somewhere it was said that Celene -- upon taking the throne -- showed herself to be a supporter of expansionism just like her ancestor Kordillius Drakon I.[/quote]

Actually, she's hardly mentioned in DAO. In RtO there are two letters she exchanged with Cailan - one, in which she says that the Blight is a threat for both of them and she's willing to help her knights to help Cailan. Second, less formal, in which she says that the visit to Denerim is postponed due to the Blight and that they will talk about the permanent alliance between their countries once it's over. The Codex about her says that she is a capable politician and that under her rule, Orlais is peaceful and prosperous.

None of this proves she was expansionist.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

Well, Loghain is still commanding his armies, but from Denerim.[/quote]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sort of. He's out in the field a lot as well, which allowed Howe to move forward with things that Loghain wouldn't have approved of otherwise -- the purge of the Alienage, for one.

[/quote]

We don't really know that. When he's shown, he's in Denerim. And given that it was Loghain who approved the business with the Tevinter slavers, I don't see why he wouldn't approve the purge.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

 I could also ask though, why does the blame fall on Loghain? The way I usually read the situation, Loghain orders the banns to support "what was lost at Ostagar" and the banns say no, we're going to fight your troops instead. Loghain is the one trying to stop the darkspawn, he's the one trying to pull troops together, and the banns are fighting among themselves and with Loghain. I understand the concern about Loghain potentially taking the crown once the Blight is over, but I don't think the time to address that is during the Blight itself.[/quote]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, he started off strong, asking them to support and rebuild what was lost at Ostagar. What happened after that, however, is when the waters start to get muddied.

Teagan asked for details about the retreat from Ostagar, which could've been easily answered by a "The battle was unwinnable, and there was nothing I could do to save Cailan". Whether that would've placated the nobility enough to line up under his banner, I dunno. Maybe so, maybe not.

What he says instead is a politically disastrous line of "Everything I've done has been for the good of the nation, and I will brook no threat from anyone -- be they Fereldan or foreigner!". 

That carries with it a hostile persona that lends itself well to the doubts on Ostagar's nature. The Bannorn are now divided between thinking Loghain retreated due to it being unwinnable or having left his King to die for no real reason.

It's not clear who struck the first blow in the civil war, but certainly both Loghain and the Bannorn are both at fault. The latter, IMO, more then the former -- and I also believe they struck the first blow, as Howe states that the Bannorn were gearing up for war.

These issues are, as you said, best addressed once the nation is safe from the Blight.

Loghain's certainly a horrible politician -- hence his reliance on Howe -- but only a fool chooses to go through with a civil war in a time of Blight. And the Bannorn not supporting Loghain are the fools in this picture.
[/quote]

Loghain didn't believe it was a Blight. Why should Banns believe it? They were not at Ostagar, they didn't see the horde. And Loghain didn't do much to convince them. From their point of view, he tries to usurp the throne.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

Why would Loghain have known Howe was torturing the son of nobles? The only thing Loghain does lie about is poisoning Eamon.
[/quote]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
At one point, Gaider said that Howe had done a lot of things without Loghain's approval when the latter was out in the field. I don't think Loghain knew about Sighard's son being held captive and tortured. Certainly, he didn't know about the purge on the Alienage Howe had done.

Hell, when you think about it, Howe took Alfstanna's brother and Sighard's son so he could gain more land through some nasty methods. He's a man who is never satisfied with how much power he has. He cares little for how he gets it.

If Eamon had been close to his deathbed and Berwick had sent word to one of Howe's men, Howe probably would've kept that information from Loghain so he could plan out a way to take Redcliffe for himself.

Howe probably would've betrayed Ferelden to the Orlesians if it meant more power and authority for him.

[/quote]

None of this can be deducted from the game or books, and I don't accept Gaider's headcanon as a valid resource. But, even if Loghain didn't know what was Howe doing, it doesn't mean he was not responsible for it. It was still him who enpowered Howe and gave him the authority to do it. He at least knew about Couslands. He also admitted poisoning of Eamon. So he definitely knew what Howe was capable of.

So it all comes down to how big a fool you think Loghain was. I personally prefer evil, ambitious Loghain over an imbecile who doesn't know what's going on right under his nose.
[/quote]

[Jedimaster88]

Im still a bit curious about how your wardens come to the conclusion about the ostagar retreat being tactical?

I try to look this from MY warden´s point of view who usually is male human noble. He knows and sees that there are a lot of darkspawn from the bridge. He DOESNT know how big are Loghain´s forces.

Later at the tower he lights the beacon and waits. Suddenly the darkspawn attack and he passes out from the arrows. He DOESNT see how the battle goes outside. He later wakes up to learn about the retreat.

At lothering he hears the talks about the grey wardens being traitors and murderers of the king. About how they for some weird reason led Cailan to his death and died themselves. For him this doesnt make any sense. Later more accuses come from that Loghain fan soldier plus he learns that Loghain is regent. Now he knows that the surviving part of the army consists of Loghain and men loyal to him only. He also remembers hearing that Cailan and Loghain were having more arguments than usual. Its starting to feel suspicious.

At redcliffe he learns about Howe being Loghain´s right hand and how Eamon fell ill from poison BEFORE ostagar. He remembers Loghain hearing about Howe´s actions and that he didnt seem that suprised. Now the suspicioun grows even bigger. Was it all a pre-planned move?

Later comes that fanboy messenger about KING Loghain. There is also the circle and other places.

When he meets Loghain with Eamon, he receives only threats, false sympathies, mocking and lies.

At landsmeet he hears lies about being an Orlesian spy. Me?....an Orlesian spy?...yeah right, I have barely met any Orlesians. Wonder how he comes up with these things...(his thoughts).

His suspicions remain strong and Loghain doesnt offer much to his own defence about his motivations or reasons. He does offer raging and some more lies.

So in the end as my warden executes Loghain, he doesnt get much answers. He believes that Loghain may have been once a trusworthy skilled general but now he sees a raging madman who lives in the past and who cant be trusted after everything he has done. "He is too dangerous to be kept alive" as Mace Windu once said.

Basically my warden doesnt find any solid evidence about the retreat being tactical instead of pre-planned. He only has his own beliefs and doubts and what other people say and believe. We all know the warden DOESNT have the same sources of information as we do.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Im still a bit curious about how your wardens come to the conclusion about the ostagar retreat being tactical?

I try to look this from MY warden´s point of view who usually is male human noble. He knows and sees that there are a lot of darkspawn from the bridge. He DOESNT know how big are Loghain´s forces.

Later at the tower he lights the beacon and waits. Suddenly the darkspawn attack and he passes out from the arrows. He DOESNT see how the battle goes outside. He later wakes up to learn about the retreat.

At lothering he hears the talks about the grey wardens being traitors and murderers of the king. About how they for some weird reason led Cailan to his death and died themselves. For him this doesnt make any sense. Later more accuses come from that Loghain fan soldier plus he learns that Loghain is regent. Now he knows that the surviving part of the army consists of Loghain and men loyal to him only. He also remembers hearing that Cailan and Loghain were having more arguments than usual. Its starting to feel suspicious.

At redcliffe he learns about Howe being Loghain´s right hand and how Eamon fell ill from poison BEFORE ostagar. He remembers Loghain hearing about Howe´s actions and that he didnt seem that suprised. Now the suspicioun grows even bigger. Was it all a pre-planned move?

Later comes that fanboy messenger about KING Loghain. There is also the circle and other places.

When he meets Loghain with Eamon, he receives only threats, false sympathies, mocking and lies.

At landsmeet he hears lies about being an Orlesian spy. Me?....an Orlesian spy?...yeah right, I have barely met any Orlesians. Wonder how he comes up with these things...(his thoughts).

His suspicions remain strong and Loghain doesnt offer much to his own defence about his motivations or reasons. He does offer raging and some more lies.

So in the end as my warden executes Loghain, he doesnt get much answers. He believes that Loghain may have been once a trusworthy skilled general but now he sees a raging madman who lives in the past and who cant be trusted after everything he has done. "He is too dangerous to be kept alive" as Mace Windu once said.

Basically my warden doesnt find any solid evidence about the retreat being tactical instead of pre-planned. He only has his own beliefs and doubts and what other people say and believe. We all know the warden DOESNT have the same sources of information as we do.

We have Alistair stating that they've already missed the signal, and that they're just lighting it as a Hail Mary. That's enough, or ought to be enough, that one can doubt. Plus, if you're headcanoning that your Warden knows anything about military tactics, the Warden can know that charging out of the pass was a bad idea that might or might not be sufficient to torpedo the plan on it's own. It's about as solid as the case against Loghain, I'd say.

Edit: And I forgot about the fact that your Warden can see how many darkspawn there are from the bridge. There's a giant stream of them coming around the mountain. They're pouring in from past the horizon. He knows or should know that Loghain's force isn't that large. The only way to beat that is with a tactical advantage of the kind that just got shot to hell.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 novembre 2012 - 05:22 .

[Monica21]

Your Warden does hear Loghain telling Cailan that being on the front lines is a bad idea. Your Warden hears Cailan refusing Redcliffe troops. Your Warden can overhear at least one conversation in camp about the scouts coming back with bigger numbers every time. When your Warden is at the top of the Tower of Ishal, all Alistair says is, "Surely we've missed the signal by now." He has no idea if anyone was able to send the signal. I think there's even a mention that Cailan's force was the larger of the two. Given what your Warden sees coming out of the pass, it's enough to at least cause alarm.

Everything that happens after Ostagar does not mean that Loghain wanted to kill Cailan and was willing to sacrifice an awful lot of Ferelden soldiers to do so.

Modifié par Monica21, 25 novembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Klidi]

No, Alistair says they probably missed the signal, because they can't say how much time they lost fighting the darkspawn.

However, there's also interesting bit of talk that Loghain's fans ignore, or just say 'but Gaider said it's not like that' - which for me, is not a valid argument. I'm talking about the talk between Alistair and the Warden about how the darkspawn got into the tower... unless they knew the plan.

Loghain knew about the tunnels - and didn't close them, or at least secure them. They've obviously been in Ostagar for days, and he did nothing.

As for Alistair and Warden being late - Logain was apparently sowhere from where he could watch the battle, to decide that it was too late to join Cailan and that it's wiser to withdraw... the question is, why he was so determined to wait for the signal, and didn't join Cailan before it was too late?

The whole strategy at Ostagar was extremely stupid - and it was Loghain, not Cailan, who made the plan. At the meeting, Cailan asks Loghain about the plan, it's Loghain who says who will be where and what they'll do. Basically:

- he sent Cailan and his troops into the battle first
- he was supposed to join Cailan's troops at the signal
- the signal was supposed to be lit in the tower where, as Loghain knew, were suspicious tunnels and no guards, with exception of one man in front of the gate
- for this crucial task they chose two people who didn't have ANY experience as commanders of army (even if you are human noble, you're called Pup, and not considered old and experienced enough to join your father and brother); while it's true that they were chosen by Cailan, Loghain didn't protest, or send his men with them
- they were supposed to lit the signal after they saw another signal - and only one of them, Alistair, knew what it is. (Duncan says so when he sends them to the tower).
- that means, that someone else is watching the situation, and supposed to fire the first signal. It means, there are two people who know the strategy watching the battle - Loghain and whoever it was Duncan was talking about
- but Duncan also says they have approximately one hour after the battle starts - how does he, or anyone else know how will the battle develop and how much time it will take is beyond me. This is the base of Alistair's 'we're probably late'.

Again, Loghain is either totally incompetent as a leader and general, or he's very cunning and planned it all to get rid of Cailan.

[Monica21]

[quote]Klidi wrote...

No, Alistair says they probably missed the signal, because they can't say how much time they lost fighting the darkspawn. [/quote]
No, Alistair's line is "We've surely missed the signal by now." He and you know that you've lost a lot of time getting to the top of the tower. But I'm not sure how that's relevant.

[quote]However, there's also interesting bit of talk that Loghain's fans ignore, or just say 'but Gaider said it's not like that' - which for me, is not a valid argument. I'm talking about the talk between Alistair and the Warden about how the darkspawn got into the tower... unless they knew the plan.

Loghain knew about the tunnels - and didn't close them, or at least secure them. They've obviously been in Ostagar for days, and he did nothing. [/quote]
I hate this argument. I really do. I hate this argument because it presumes that Loghain was working with darkspawn. It also fails to recognize that the darkspawn could have known about the plan without any knowledge from Loghain. The darkspawn aren't intelligent but the archdemon is. The Wardens can listen in on the archdemon and vice versa. Why wouldn't the archdemon have sent darkspawn into the tower precisely because of that? Yes, Loghain should have sealed the tunnels, but at the time you get to Ostagar they're still being explored. It's possible that he didn't have time.

[quote]As for Alistair and Warden being late - Logain was apparently sowhere from where he could watch the battle, to decide that it was too late to join Cailan and that it's wiser to withdraw... the question is, why he was so determined to wait for the signal, and didn't join Cailan before it was too late?[/quote]
Two things wrong with this:
1. If Loghain was someplace where he could watch the battle, why did they need a signal at all?
2. One can assume, upon arriving at Ostagar and anyone with even a basic knowledge of battle tactics, that Loghain would have to charge from cover. There are trees everywhere except for the valley floor itself. Loghain can't charge from the open because then that kind of leaves aside the whole surprise element. If he's charging from cover then his vision will be obscured, being surrounded by trees and all. (And this is all without Mary Kirby explaining that Loghain had an obstructed view of the battle.)

[quote]The whole strategy at Ostagar was extremely stupid - and it was Loghain, not Cailan, who made the plan. At the meeting, Cailan asks Loghain about the plan, it's Loghain who says who will be where and what they'll do. Basically:

- he sent Cailan and his troops into the battle first[/quote]
Cailan sent himself into battle. Cailan chose to be on the front lines. Cailan chose the time and place for the battle. Cailan chose to ignore Redcliffe troops.
[quote]- he was supposed to join Cailan's troops at the signal[/quote]
And? The signal was supposedly late.
[quote]- the signal was supposed to be lit in the tower where, as Loghain knew, were suspicious tunnels and no guards, with exception of one man in front of the gate[/quote]
Your talk about "suspicious tunnels" just gives credence to Loghain doing the right thing by attempting to send his own men. At least his men knew about them.
[quote]- for this crucial task they chose two people who didn't have ANY experience as commanders of army (even if you are human noble, you're called Pup, and not considered old and experienced enough to join your father and brother); while it's true that they were chosen by Cailan, Loghain didn't protest, or send his men with them[/quote]
Cailan chose the Wardens, not long after he told Loghain, "you will remember who is king." Also, so? Why does one need to be an army commander to light a fire?
[quote]- they were supposed to lit the signal after they saw another signal - and only one of them, Alistair, knew what it is. (Duncan says so when he sends them to the tower).[/quote]
Indeed. Which Alistair ignores completely by saying they've obviously missed it. Nevermind that he has no idea if it's been missed, or if the position from which the signal was supposed to have been sent was overrun or if it hadn't been sent at all yet.
[quote]- that means, that someone else is watching the situation, and supposed to fire the first signal. It means, there are two people who know the strategy watching the battle - Loghain and whoever it was Duncan was talking about[/quote]
Established. And?
[quote]- but Duncan also says they have approximately one hour after the battle starts - how does he, or anyone else know how will the battle develop and how much time it will take is beyond me. This is the base of Alistair's 'we're probably late'.[/quote]
Because Duncan has an estimate of Cailan's forces and the darkspawn forces. In a hammer and anvil it doesn't take long to figure out how long it will be until the anvil starts to crack. And I suppose for this point we'll leave aside the fact that the darkspawn forces were grossly underestimated.

[quote]Again, Loghain is either totally incompetent as a leader and general, or he's very cunning and planned it all to get rid of Cailan.[/quote]
Or, Cailan's an idiot.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Klidi wrote...

No, Alistair says they probably missed the signal, because they can't say how much time they lost fighting the darkspawn.  

"We've surely missed the signal by now."

Besides, the amount of time it takes you to clear those floors, plus the fact that the Tower, from the way it looks from the outside, probably had more floors than were shown? And Duncan says you have less than an hour? I think we're good.

However, there's also interesting bit of talk that Loghain's fans ignore, or just say 'but Gaider said it's not like that' - which for me, is not a valid argument.

The guy who wrote this telling you the thoughts he shaped his fictional world around is not a valid argument to you?

I'm talking about the talk between Alistair and the Warden about how the darkspawn got into the tower... unless they knew the plan.

Loghain knew about the tunnels - and didn't close them, or at least secure them. They've obviously been in Ostagar for days, and he did nothing.  

I hope you're not suggesting he let a post close to his get overrun by darkspawn on purpose. That would just be stupid of him.

As for Alistair and Warden being late - Logain was apparently sowhere from where he could watch the battle, to decide that it was too late to join Cailan and that it's wiser to withdraw... the question is, why he was so determined to wait for the signal, and didn't join Cailan before it was too late?

He was waiting until all the darkspawn were committed, so that he didn't get flanked. He couldn't see when that was the case, but if there's more continuing out of the forest, then you can see that it isn't.

The whole strategy at Ostagar was extremely stupid - and it was Loghain, not Cailan, who made the plan. At the meeting, Cailan asks Loghain about the plan, it's Loghain who says who will be where and what they'll do.

Remember that argument you don't accept? Coincidentally, it has an answer for this. Loghain didn't actually think this was a Blight, and underestimated the number of darkspawn.

Basically:

- he sent Cailan and his troops into the battle first
- he was supposed to join Cailan's troops at the signal

If you remember Cailan insisted on fighting at the front, and in a tone of voice that suggested Loghain was getting annoying about how stupid this was. You can argue that Loghain was just trying to divert suspicion, if and only if you have some reason your headcanon trumps the headcanon the game was written around. (Before you ask, yes, Gaider's headcanon agrees with mine here, or at least they go in the same direction.)

- the signal was supposed to be lit in the tower where, as Loghain knew, were suspicious tunnels and no guards, with exception of one man in front of the gate
- for this crucial task they chose two people who didn't have ANY experience as commanders of army (even if you are human noble, you're called Pup, and not considered old and experienced enough to join your father and brother); while it's true that they were chosen by Cailan, Loghain didn't protest, or send his men with them

Why would he strongly object to having two additional men sent? (I feel like pointing out that he did have more than one man there, if not watching the tunnels, and that he did slightly object to having Wardens watching the Tower. The idea was that the Wardens were being given too much trust, I think.)

- they were supposed to lit the signal after they saw another signal - and only one of them, Alistair, knew what it is. (Duncan says so when he sends them to the tower).
- that means, that someone else is watching the situation, and supposed to fire the first signal. It means, there are two people who know the strategy watching the battle - Loghain and whoever it was Duncan was talking about
- but Duncan also says they have approximately one hour after the battle starts - how does he, or anyone else know how will the battle develop and how much time it will take is beyond me. This is the base of Alistair's 'we're probably late'.

According to that argument you don't accept, they were, in fact, wrong. There simply was no right time to charge, because the battle was screwed from the start. Further reinforcing this in-game is the freaking stream of darkspawn I mentioned previously.

Again, Loghain is either totally incompetent as a leader and general, or he's very cunning and planned it all to get rid of Cailan.

Wasn't TEWR's response something like "Bioware doesn't know enough about strategy to write good generals?" They meant for him to be competent, they just don't know how to get it across to people who know what competent looks like.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 novembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[TEWR]

Klidi wrote...


Actually, she's hardly mentioned in DAO. In RtO there are two letters she exchanged with Cailan - one, in which she says that the Blight is a threat for both of them and she's willing to help her knights to help Cailan. Second, less formal, in which she says that the visit to Denerim is postponed due to the Blight and that they will talk about the permanent alliance between their countries once it's over. The Codex about her says that she is a capable politician and that under her rule, Orlais is peaceful and prosperous.

None of this proves she was expansionist.

I misremembered where it was stated. It's in the DAII Collector's Edition guide where it talks about the lore of the world.

We don't really know that. When he's shown, he's in Denerim. And given that it was Loghain who approved the business with the Tevinter slavers, I don't see why he wouldn't approve the purge.

We do. You can overhear a few things from bartenders saying that Loghain's been out in the field a lot.

None of this can be deducted from the game or books, and I don't accept Gaider's headcanon as a valid resource. But, even if Loghain didn't know what was Howe doing, it doesn't mean he was not responsible for it. It was still him who enpowered Howe and gave him the authority to do it. He at least knew about Couslands - so he definitely knew what Howe was capable of.

So it all comes down to how big a fool you think Loghain was. I personally prefer evil, ambitious Loghain over an imbecile who doesn't know what's going on right under his nose.

We can deduce what Howe would've done. He personally lies to the Couslands, who in Fereldan law have his allegiance, all to gain control of their lands. He imprisons Vaughan Kendalls, rightful Arl of Denerim -- even if he is a pompous douchebag. This grants him the control of Denerim along with Highever and Amaranthine -- the greater part of the Coastlands.

Given his death quote where he says "I... deserved.... MORE!!", I think it's safe to say that he's never going to be satisfied and would've indeed tried to gain Redcliffe lands as well as the lands controlled by relatives of his prisoners.

Remember, Berwick was in the employ of a man answering directly to Howe. Not Loghain. Howe. I see no reason to believe that Howe would've been so noble as to inform Loghain of Eamon's imminent death, if that was reported to him.

And Loghain only possibly knows of what Howe is capable of -- being a power-hungry tyrant -- if you're playing a Human Noble. However, Loghain can ill afford to antagonize a man that is in control of the greater part of the Coastlands. That would be detrimental to Ferelden's safety.

He relied on Howe's supposed political mind -- IMO, Howe's not that smart -- to make decisions regarding Fereldan politics. Anora certainly would've been a better person to go to for political advice, but that would present Loghain with a possible conundrum of having to wage a war on three fronts:

1) The Darkspawn
2) The Bannorn
3) Howe's forces.

That's nigh impossible to succeed at, if not completely so. So while Howe was the worst person to go to for political advice, Loghain was only doing it to avoid a further rift between Ferelden's forces.

So think of Howe being Loghain's ally as Loghain going with the lesser of two evils -- and one that he can deal with once the dust has settled. That's simply what it is. 

Howe himself has probably wormed his way into Loghain's actions. The slavery was probably Howe's idea, seeing as he purged the Alienage and shows utter contempt for the Elves -- labeling them as animals in need of being put down.

Was it okay for Loghain to approve of it? No, not really. The Elves could've been recruited into the army to form the Night Elves once more. Financially though, it was necessary -- and from a military standpoint, certainly. That the Warden can save the Alienage is a stroke of luck, not something that could've been easily achieved. 

Had the Circle not turned against Loghain, he might've asked the Lucrosians and the Formari to start pumping out things he could sell for coin and recruited the Elves to be part of Ferelden's forces. But because the Circle was now not on his side, he was left with only one alternative to raise money. Slavery. Horrible as it was, it was his only recourse at the time.

With Loghain, he'll do what's necessary to help his nation, even if it's not morally acceptable. 

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Wasn't TEWR's response something like "Bioware doesn't know enough about strategy to write good generals?" They meant for him to be competent, they just don't know how to get it across to people who know what competent looks like.

Pretty much. I made a very long-winded response a couple months ago that showed how Ostagar, as we interact with it, was unwinnable. And then I went on to say that elements of Ostagar were contradictory to how Bioware wanted to portray Loghain, and that they really screwed up.

Loghain's ignorance of Ostagar, for example, contradicts his established character as a man who wants to know where his borders end, how best to defend them, and the very fortresses that guard his nation.

So essentially, yes. Bioware wanted Loghain to be a competent general -- in-game sources even say that he's a military genius -- but they failed to know just how to make him a competent general because they have at best a rudimentary knowledge of warfare and strategy.

Monica21 wrote...

The Wardens can listen in on the archdemon and vice versa. Why wouldn't the archdemon have sent darkspawn into the tower precisely because of that?

Yup. As we find out later on, the Archdemon can actually see the Warden and Alistair. And he sent Shrieks to their camp. So the plan was known to the Darkspawn because the Archdemon heard their thoughts, most likely. Not that Loghain was somehow able to work directly with the Darkspawn.

Because that's one of the most foolish things ever. It presumes that Loghain and his men could interact with monsters who care about killing everything in such a safe manner to guarantee their own survival, or that they'd want to sacrifice their men to the Darkspawn.

Darkspawn are not able to speak, unless they're Awakened Darkspawn. So you'd be hard-pressed to know if you've even gotten them to be on your side.

That argument's intent is to ignore what we do know and try and cast blame at the feet of Loghain as some diabolical mastermind who can make monsters his allies. 

And we know for a fact that was not what Loghain did. He did not work with the Darkspawn. He did not plan to kill Cailan in a mad grab for power. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Jedimaster88]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



And Loghain only possibly knows of what Howe is capable of -- being a power-hungry tyrant -- if you're playing a Human Noble. However, Loghain can ill afford to antagonize a man that is in control of the greater part of the Coastlands. That would be detrimental to Ferelden's safety.

He relied on Howe's supposed political mind -- IMO, Howe's not that smart -- to make decisions regarding Fereldan politics. Anora certainly would've been a better person to go to for political advice, but that would present Loghain with a possible conundrum of having to wage a war on three fronts:


That's nigh impossible to succeed at, if not completely so. So while Howe was the worst person to go to for political advice, Loghain was only doing it to avoid a further rift between Ferelden's forces.

So think of Howe being Loghain's ally as Loghain going with the lesser of two evils -- and one that he can deal with once the dust has settled. That's simply what it is. 

Howe himself has probably wormed his way into Loghain's actions. The slavery was probably Howe's idea, seeing as he purged the Alienage and shows utter contempt for the Elves -- labeling them as animals in need of being put down.

Was it okay for Loghain to approve of it? No, not really. The Elves could've been recruited into the army to form the Night Elves once more. Financially though, it was necessary -- and from a military standpoint, certainly. That the Warden can save the Alienage is a stroke of luck, not something that could've been easily achieved. 

Had the Circle not turned against Loghain, he might've asked the Lucrosians and the Formari to start pumping out things he could sell for coin and recruited the Elves to be part of Ferelden's forces. But because the Circle was now not on his side, he was left with only one alternative to raise money. Slavery. Horrible as it was, it was his only recourse at the time.

With Loghain, he'll do what's necessary to help his nation, even if it's not morally acceptable. 

And we know for a fact that was not what Loghain did. He did not work with the Darkspawn. He did not plan to kill Cailan in a mad grab for power. 

Loghain knows what Howe did with the Couslands who were his friends. He should realize that Howe SHOULDNT be given any power. He betrayed his friends, just imagine what he would to to you. (Im under the impression that Howe and Loghain are not friends)

Why not just execute Howe as soon as he shows his treacherous face in front of you? Give his lands to his son Thomas or someone else trustworthy. Give his men a chance to either fight for Ferelden and obey or face death.

If Loghain had continued his ways and for some weird reason won, do you think Howe would have ever answered for his crimes and faced justice? Somehow I doubt it.

Let Anora handle politics from the start. In fact I´ve recently thought that wouldnt this be the right time to cure Eamon? Convince him that now they truly must stand united instead of threatening him. Convince him that Cailan couldnt be saved and focus on saving what can be saved. With Anora on the throne and Eamon on his side, would anyone have anymore reason to oppose him?

Was it truly necessary to sell the elves to slavery for financial reasons? Why not increase trade like Bhelen and the warden commander do? It worked for them so why wouldnt it work for him too?

"With Loghain, he'll do what's necessary to help his nation, even if it's not morally acceptable." Yeah hard decisions must be made sometimes. Still I wonder how much he thought about other ways or did he at all...
Dirty Harry says it; "A man must know his limits". Dont remember if it was exactly like that.

He goes on about Ferelden standing on its own. I´ve sometimes wondered what would Loghain do if he had to choose. Would he rather let Ferelden burn on its own or if it comes to that, accept help from Orlais and take his chances with them?



" He did not plan to kill Cailan in a mad grab for
power."

Well I can easily understand why many believes this. I believe that not all the players visit these forums that much and find mentions about Gaider´s truths. Even for me it was pure chance that I happened to watch some topic where people told about what Gaider had told.

The way things show themselves in the game:

The mad look on Loghain´s face as he orders Cathriel to do "as he commands" is like a message: "dont even think about disobeying me or you will regret it"

Then you hear how Eamon fell ill BEFORE ostagar, that Loghain fanboy messenger repeating KING LOGHAIN, That captured noble telling how his friend received the order to retreat BEFORE the darkspawn overwhelmed Cailan.

These and other things can easily give another image entirely. Heck the first time I played I viewed Loghain as a mad power hungry usurper hiding behind noble reasons.

Even today it is sometimes difficult to believe it even if it is the truth.

[Monica21]

There is way too much moralizing going on.

Jedimaster88 wrote...
Loghain knows what Howe did with the Couslands who were his friends. He should realize that Howe SHOULDNT be given any power. He betrayed his friends, just imagine what he would to to you. (Im under the impression that Howe and Loghain are not friends)

Any evidence that Howe killed the Couslands died with Duncan. Your Warden cannot be trusted, and is in fact now a Warden, therefore you have no titles or lands. The problem is political, not moral. I'm not sure how much the rest of Ferelden nobility know about Highever or Howe's role, but the fact is that with Bryce's death, Howe becomes Teryn. His troops didn't go to Ostagar. It's the political support of Howe holding a terynir that Loghain needs.

Why not just execute Howe as soon as he shows his treacherous face in front of you? Give his lands to his son Thomas or someone else trustworthy. Give his men a chance to either fight for Ferelden and obey or face death.

If you mean why wouldn't Loghain execute Howe, again, it's because there's no proof.

If Loghain had continued his ways and for some weird reason won, do you think Howe would have ever answered for his crimes and faced justice? Somehow I doubt it.

Actually, yeah. At the very least, I don't think Anora would have stood for it.

Let Anora handle politics from the start. In fact I´ve recently thought that wouldnt this be the right time to cure Eamon? Convince him that now they truly must stand united instead of threatening him. Convince him that Cailan couldnt be saved and focus on saving what can be saved. With Anora on the throne and Eamon on his side, would anyone have anymore reason to oppose him?

Eamon would never go to Loghain's side. Eamon fully believes that Loghain killed Cailan, based on, I guess, Alistair and Teagan's word. Loghain has the right of it in the Landsmeet; Eamon doesn't have a claim to the throne, but he certainly knows who he can put forward to pull the strings.

Was it truly necessary to sell the elves to slavery for financial reasons? Why not increase trade like Bhelen and the warden commander do? It worked for them so why wouldnt it work for him too?

That doesn't happen until after the Blight. During a war it's quite a bit more difficult to find the funding.

He goes on about Ferelden standing on its own. I´ve sometimes wondered what would Loghain do if he had to choose. Would he rather let Ferelden burn on its own or if it comes to that, accept help from Orlais and take his chances with them?

Definitely let it burn, and why not? The occupation was truly horrific, for anyone who didn't fall in line with the Orlesian nobles. Why even risk another?

" He did not plan to kill Cailan in a mad grab for power."

Well I can easily understand why many believes this. I believe that not all the players visit these forums that much and find mentions about Gaider´s truths. Even for me it was pure chance that I happened to watch some topic where people told about what Gaider had told.

He did not plan to kill Cailan at all, nor did he kill Cailan.

The way things show themselves in the game:

The mad look on Loghain´s face as he orders Cathriel to do "as he commands" is like a message: "dont even think about disobeying me or you will regret it"

Then you hear how Eamon fell ill BEFORE ostagar, that Loghain fanboy messenger repeating KING LOGHAIN, That captured noble telling how his friend received the order to retreat BEFORE the darkspawn overwhelmed Cailan.

These and other things can easily give another image entirely. Heck the first time I played I viewed Loghain as a mad power hungry usurper hiding behind noble reasons.

Even today it is sometimes difficult to believe it even if it is the truth.

So, the player has to think about Loghain. Oh, how terrible. For the player to think about actions and motivations and consequences. Terrible. If only all characters were so shallow that their every move was so easily discerned by an expression.

Edited to add that what Loghain actually says about that moment is, "They were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day." Not exactly what you'd expect from a power hungry usurper.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[TEWR]

Loghain knows what Howe did with the Couslands who were his friends. He should realize that Howe SHOULDNT be given any power. He betrayed his friends, just imagine what he would to to you. (Im under the impression that Howe and Loghain are not friends)

He only knows that if you're playing a Human Noble, which is what I said earlier and which is true. Cailan only finds out if you're playing a Human Noble, and Loghain is told of it by Cailan only if you're a Human Noble.

On other origins, he doesn't know. Are there some lingering questions about the circumstances surrounding the Couslands' demise? Undoubtedly. But if you're not a HN, Loghain just doesn't know. Or if he does know, he finds out far too late in the game to do anything about it that wouldn't simultaneously jeopardize Ferelden even more.

Because we know for a fact that Loghain had nothing to do with the Couslands' murder.

Why not just execute Howe as soon as he shows his treacherous face in front of you? Give his lands to his son Thomas or someone else trustworthy. Give his men a chance to either fight for Ferelden and obey or face death.

Because Loghain finds it necessary to rely on Howe politically, sad as that is. I do admit that him going to Howe of all people over Anora is... odd. Not just odd, but almost bordering on absurd, especially since Howe is a political idiot IMO. Although I guess to an extent, maybe Howe made Loghain think that Anora would be one of the following:

1) too rattled by Cailan's death to truly be in a state of mind to help
2) too conflicted over the implications about Cailan's death.

And so Loghain went to Howe, as he was a third party. Had Howe not killed Bryce Cousland, Loghain might've approached him instead of Howe, if he wasn't going to go straight to Anora. 

In addition, Thomas Howe is dead -- he died during the events of Origins, specifically the fight against the Darkspawn IIRC. The only Howes to survive are Nathaniel -- who is in the Free Marches at this time -- and Delilah. 

Furthermore, Loghain could ill afford to antagonize Howe. It would not be so easy to just kill Howe. You'd have to do it in such a way that Loghain could not be linked back to it, lest the amassed forces under Howe's little "regime" find out and launch a third front against Loghain's forces.

Hell, that could drive some of his supporters into the Bannorn's side if it was linked back to him. People that thought he did the right thing at Ostagar and are currently fighting on his side might be led to believe that his killing of Howe only shows how the Bannorn would possibly be right to say he may have killed Cailan for power -- which he didn't, but they'd be led to believe such if they found out he killed Howe maybe.

If Loghain had continued his ways and for some weird reason won, do you think Howe would have ever answered for his crimes and faced justice? Somehow I doubt it.

Yes, though he probably would've supported a fair exercise of law rather then outright murder. As Howe was doing a lot of things behind Loghain's back and without his approval on them, I doubt he would've let him stay alive.

In addition, it would be too risky to allow Howe to wield the power of a Teyrnir and two Arlings -- the greater portion of the Coastlands. It would be the monarch's duty -- Anora, in this case, were she to be recognized by the Landsmeet -- to institute a new family as the local lords of Denerim and Highever if the original line has been reduced to oblivion.

That's how these things work.

So at the very least, Howe would be stuck with Amaranthine again. But Anora is far more discerning -- plus Howe is not subtle at all -- and she would no doubt have surmised that Howe had murdered the Couslands and possibly the Kendalls for more power and would then have opted that he face the hangman's noose.

Let Anora handle politics from the start. In fact I´ve recently thought that wouldnt this be the right time to cure Eamon? Convince him that now they truly must stand united instead of threatening him. Convince him that Cailan couldnt be saved and focus on saving what can be saved. With Anora on the throne and Eamon on his side, would anyone have anymore reason to oppose him?

Eamon would let his relationship to the throne cloud his judgement and simply view Loghain as a traitor, wrong as that would be. No amount of effort on Loghain's part would be able to persuade Eamon that Cailan couldn't be saved.

Was it truly necessary to sell the elves to slavery for financial reasons? Why not increase trade like Bhelen and the warden commander do? It worked for them so why wouldnt it work for him too?

Because during a war -- especially a civil war -- trade is almost impossible, if not outrightly so, to do? Because both Bhelen and the Warden-Commander do that after the Blight's ended, the Civil War has been settled, and Ferelden is stable?

Nationally speaking anyway, as you have to disregard the lingering Darkspawn threat.

In addition, Ferelden doesn't really have anything they could use to increase their coffers on an international level of trade. They have only two things that might help them garner coin: the Circle's enchantments and pilgrimages to Andraste's Ashes.

At this point, the Circle wouldn't ally with Loghain because of Wynne's fat yap. And the Ashes were only verified after the Blight had ended.

He goes on about Ferelden standing on its own. I´ve sometimes wondered what would Loghain do if he had to choose. Would he rather let Ferelden burn on its own or if it comes to that, accept help from Orlais and take his chances with them?

He might begrudgingly accept Orlesian aid, especially if he was convinced that his actions meant to preserve his nation have only let it fall ever closer to ruin.

But he'd probably want their aid under terms he found acceptable.

He's not opposed to receiving aid from other nations. As we find out in DAII, Lord Harrimann sent some Free Marches soldiers to fight the Blight -- he was one of the few to do so, which earned him ire from other nobles. He is opposed to Orlesian aid, however.

Well I can easily understand why many believes this. I believe that not all the players visit these forums that much and find mentions about Gaider´s truths. Even for me it was pure chance that I happened to watch some topic where people told about what Gaider had told.

There's enough evidence in-game to show it to us.

Then you hear how Eamon fell ill BEFORE ostagar

Conflicts with the timeline of events, so it's either a leftover bit from when Bioware wanted Loghain to be a card-carrying villain or Eamon just had some illness which caused the poison -- which had to have happened after Ostagar -- to take effect faster due to Eamon having a compromised immune system.

Since, y'know, Eamon was well enough to say to Duncan that he could be in Redcliffe in a week's time.

That captured noble telling how his friend received the order to retreat BEFORE the darkspawn overwhelmed Cailan.

If we want to get technical about this, all of Loghain's men fell back before Cailan was overwhelmed. There's nothing special about that noble's friend's comments.

Loghain ordered all of his men to retreat. Cailan was still fighting during that time, but died a few minutes later.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 novembre 2012 - 02:08 .